Israel at war

[shack]

Why don't we start with UN 3379 - which states that zionism = racism

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

UNSC 237 - demands Israel allow all refugees to return.
1967

United Nations Security Council Resolution 237 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why don't we start with your claims that Israel is committing genocide and practises apartheid. Where are those resolutions backing up your claims?

 

[shack]

So first, you admit that Israel is a pariah state that has refused to abide by more UN resolutions than any other country.

I'll respond to serious points. Try again.

The whole point of discussing binding resolutions is to prove or disprove your unending claims of genocide and apartheid by Israel. I am challenging those two claims and my evidence is that there are no such resolutions. As such those claims of yours are clearly false. You are fully aware of this but continue to attempt to foment hate against Israel based on those lies.

You need to stop making those claims.

 

[shack]

So first, you admit that Israel is a pariah state that has refused to abide by more UN resolutions than any other country.
You admit that the UN declared zionism = racism.
And you admit that the UN has reported that Israel is apartheid, the occupation illegal and Israel is committing genocide.

As I said, I will only address serious points of discussion.

But your sole argument is that because the US has been able to veto UNSC resolutions that therefore Israel is totally righteous.

Your sole tactic is to knowingly and falsely misinterpreting what others have said. As such, I refuse to reply to fallacious claims. Try again.

 

[shack]

From The New York Times today. Just to give the pro-Palestinians here some idea of how Hamas negotiates and how untrustworthy they truly are...

What to Know About the Gaps Between Israel and Hamas on the Cease-Fire Proposal
Hamas said it had accepted the terms of a cease-fire proposed by Arab mediators, but Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said it was “very far from Israel’s core demands.”

By Isabel Kershner
Reporting from Jerusalem

• May 7, 2024, 4:34 p.m. ET

Israeli officials said on Tuesday that major gaps remained with Hamas over the latest proposal for a cease-fire in Gaza, as delegations from both sides arrived in Cairo to resume talks.
Hamas said on Monday that it had accepted the terms of a cease-fire proposed by Arab mediators, and U.S. officials said it had minor wording changes from a proposal that Israel and the United States had recently presented to the group.
But Israeli officials disputed that characterization, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying on Tuesday that his war cabinet unanimously believed the proposal Hamas had agreed to was “very far from Israel’s core demands.”
The text of the revised proposal was circulating in Israeli news media on Tuesday and was confirmed as authentic by a senior Hamas official. A person briefed on the negotiations also described the differences in the two sides’ positions. Here are the key ones:
‘Sustainable calm’
The most substantive sticking point centers on a key phrase that appears in both the Israeli- and Hamas-approved proposals: a path to “sustainable calm.”
In the proposal that Israel approved, and that Egypt conveyed to the Hamas leadership on April 26, the two sides would work toward achieving a “sustainable calm” in Gaza after an initial six-week pause in fighting. That proposal left those two words open to interpretation.

But in the Hamas-approved proposal, that term is clearly defined as a permanent cessation of hostilities and a complete withdrawal of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip.

Israel has consistently opposed any deal that explicitly calls for a permanent cease-fire or an end to the war, and has said it would not agree to either until it felt its military offensive had achieved its goals. Ehud Yaari, an Israel-based fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said that the Hamas timetable would commit Israel to ending the war while Hamas still holds hostages, leaving Israel without any leverage.

Israel might have been willing to discuss ending the war later on in the process, but it would not commit to doing so from the outset, according to experts.
“If you sign the deal you are committing to all of it,” Mr. Yaari said.

Hostage releases
The first phase of a three-phase agreement would be the six-week pause in fighting, during which Israel would exchange hundreds of Palestinian prisoners and detainees in Israeli jails for 33 of the most vulnerable hostages held in Gaza. Those are all the women, including female soldiers, as well as older men and sick and injured people. Israel had lowered its initial demand for about 40 hostages in that category because it came to believe that only 33 remained alive, out of a total of 132 hostages still being held in Gaza.

But Hamas informed negotiators on Monday that not all of the 33 who would be freed in the first phase were still living, and that the remains of those who have died would be among the releases — a disclosure that surprised the Israelis.

In addition, Hamas has suggested a framework that would stretch out the hostage release by freeing three on the third day after the pause begins, then three more every seven days after that. An earlier proposal had three hostages being released every three days.

Prolonging the releases, analysts say, would mean that negotiations over the second phase of the deal — getting to a “sustainable calm” — would take place while Hamas held more bargaining chips. And Israelis also fear that committing to this situation would increase the possibility that more of the sickest hostages could die before they are released.

Israeli veto over prisoners
The proposal that Israel agreed to in April allowed it to veto the release of some of the Palestinian prisoners serving life sentences — those expected to be exchanged for Israeli soldiers being held hostage — from a list of 200 names. The proposal approved by Hamas removed any such Israeli right of refusal.

The Israeli government was largely portraying the start of its ground operation in Rafah as a means of putting pressure on the group to soften its negotiating stance. Hamas called the Israeli operation a “dangerous escalation” intended “to disrupt mediation efforts for a cease-fire and the release of prisoners.”

Still, as both sides sent delegations to Cairo on Tuesday for cease-fire talks, White House spokesman John F. Kirby said, “there should be no reason why they can’t overcome those remaining gaps.”

Julian E. Barnes, Adam Rasgon, Gabby Sobelman and Myra Noveck contributed reporting.

Thanks for keeping all of us fully informed of what is actually happening. The devil is in the details.

 

[xmontrealer]

Impressive. All those resolutions and not one that declares that Israel is practising apartheid or genocide.

As such, your attempts to accuse Israel of those things for the sole purpose of demonizing them and fomenting hate toward them is blatant and undeniable HATE SPEECH.

I'm starting to wonder how similar or dissimilar this is to 1930's Germany...

In 1933/34 while antisemitism was on the rise in Germany, most German Jews did not realize what was happening, and couldn't imagine how horrific it would become.

Until it was too late for most of them...

 

[Klatuu]

Finally, you accept that when the UN reaches a decision they pass RESOLUTIONS.

Now find us the resolution declaring that Israel is an apartheid state, like they did with resolution #1761 in 1962 in regards to S. Africa's practices, or that Israel is committing genocide.

I can wait.

Deflection

 

[Klatuu]

I'm starting to wonder how similar or dissimilar this is to 1930's Germany...

In 1933/34 while antisemitism was on the rise in Germany, most German Jews did not realize what was happening, and couldn't imagine how horrific it would become.

Until it was too late for most of them...

Brainwashed racism. Poor education

 

[Kautilya]

I'm starting to wonder how similar or dissimilar this is to 1930's Germany...

In 1933/34 while antisemitism was on the rise in Germany, most German Jews did not realize what was happening, and couldn't imagine how horrific it would become.

Until it was too late for most of them...

Well there are similarities and dissimilarities.

The similarity is that in the 30s Zionists were massacring Palestinians then. They are masscring them now.

The dissimilarity is that while Jews suffered under fascist white supremacists in the west in the 30s, today they lead happy, safe lives thanks to a diverse Canada, especially a city that is majority POC.

From The New York Times today. Just to give the pro-Palestinians here some idea of how Hamas negotiates and how untrustworthy they truly are...

What to Know About the Gaps Between Israel and Hamas on the Cease-Fire Proposal
Hamas said it had accepted the terms of a cease-fire proposed by Arab mediators, but Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said it was “very far from Israel’s core demands.”

By Isabel Kershner
Reporting from Jerusalem

• May 7, 2024, 4:34 p.m. ET

Israeli officials said on Tuesday that major gaps remained with Hamas over the latest proposal for a cease-fire in Gaza, as delegations from both sides arrived in Cairo to resume talks.
Hamas said on Monday that it had accepted the terms of a cease-fire proposed by Arab mediators, and U.S. officials said it had minor wording changes from a proposal that Israel and the United States had recently presented to the group.
But Israeli officials disputed that characterization, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying on Tuesday that his war cabinet unanimously believed the proposal Hamas had agreed to was “very far from Israel’s core demands.”
The text of the revised proposal was circulating in Israeli news media on Tuesday and was confirmed as authentic by a senior Hamas official. A person briefed on the negotiations also described the differences in the two sides’ positions. Here are the key ones:
‘Sustainable calm’
The most substantive sticking point centers on a key phrase that appears in both the Israeli- and Hamas-approved proposals: a path to “sustainable calm.”
In the proposal that Israel approved, and that Egypt conveyed to the Hamas leadership on April 26, the two sides would work toward achieving a “sustainable calm” in Gaza after an initial six-week pause in fighting. That proposal left those two words open to interpretation.

But in the Hamas-approved proposal, that term is clearly defined as a permanent cessation of hostilities and a complete withdrawal of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip.

Israel has consistently opposed any deal that explicitly calls for a permanent cease-fire or an end to the war, and has said it would not agree to either until it felt its military offensive had achieved its goals. Ehud Yaari, an Israel-based fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said that the Hamas timetable would commit Israel to ending the war while Hamas still holds hostages, leaving Israel without any leverage.

Israel might have been willing to discuss ending the war later on in the process, but it would not commit to doing so from the outset, according to experts.
“If you sign the deal you are committing to all of it,” Mr. Yaari said.

Hostage releases
The first phase of a three-phase agreement would be the six-week pause in fighting, during which Israel would exchange hundreds of Palestinian prisoners and detainees in Israeli jails for 33 of the most vulnerable hostages held in Gaza. Those are all the women, including female soldiers, as well as older men and sick and injured people. Israel had lowered its initial demand for about 40 hostages in that category because it came to believe that only 33 remained alive, out of a total of 132 hostages still being held in Gaza.

But Hamas informed negotiators on Monday that not all of the 33 who would be freed in the first phase were still living, and that the remains of those who have died would be among the releases — a disclosure that surprised the Israelis.

In addition, Hamas has suggested a framework that would stretch out the hostage release by freeing three on the third day after the pause begins, then three more every seven days after that. An earlier proposal had three hostages being released every three days.

Prolonging the releases, analysts say, would mean that negotiations over the second phase of the deal — getting to a “sustainable calm” — would take place while Hamas held more bargaining chips. And Israelis also fear that committing to this situation would increase the possibility that more of the sickest hostages could die before they are released.

Israeli veto over prisoners
The proposal that Israel agreed to in April allowed it to veto the release of some of the Palestinian prisoners serving life sentences — those expected to be exchanged for Israeli soldiers being held hostage — from a list of 200 names. The proposal approved by Hamas removed any such Israeli right of refusal.

The Israeli government was largely portraying the start of its ground operation in Rafah as a means of putting pressure on the group to soften its negotiating stance. Hamas called the Israeli operation a “dangerous escalation” intended “to disrupt mediation efforts for a cease-fire and the release of prisoners.”

Still, as both sides sent delegations to Cairo on Tuesday for cease-fire talks, White House spokesman John F. Kirby said, “there should be no reason why they can’t overcome those remaining gaps.”

Julian E. Barnes, Adam Rasgon, Gabby Sobelman and Myra Noveck contributed reporting.

Unreliable source. Plus the NYT has proven itself to be full of Zionist plants when they were exposed for false reporting regarding Hamas rapes.

On Isabel Kershner:

In her role reporting on Israeli-Palestinian issues, she has been accused of conflict of interest, as her son has served in the Israel Defense Forces,[4][5] and her husband is an employee of the Institute for National Security Studies, which is involved in promoting a positive image of Israel, and which Kershner often relies on as a source.[6][7]

 

[shack]

There is one of your resolution you have been wanting.

Reading comprehension seems not to be one of your strong suits. That is not what I have been imploring you to provide.

You and Geno are claiming that Israel is currently committing genocide in in Gaza. But I say that the UN has not passed any resolutions substantiating that claim.

And now you presenting something from over 40 years ago also does nothing to prove your claim of current Israeli misdeeds..

But what it does prove is that you finally agree that it is UNGA or SC resolutions that are passed when the UN wants to make a binding declaration. Not a rapporteur report or a statement from the ICC or ICJ as you kept trying to get us to fall for. So at least we are headed in the right direction. We agree that resolutions are required.

So the task now, as it was before, is to find a UN resolution passed that supports your claim that Israel is currently committing genocide in Gaza and that they are practising apartheid.

Good luck, Mr. Phelps. It is indeed a Mission Impossible.

 

[shack]

Deflection

Amoeba/Grasshopper, please explain how it is a deflection. After that, it will be time for you to go.

 

[Kautilya]

Reading comprehension seems not to be one of your strong suits. That is not what I have been imploring you to provide.

You and Geno are claiming that Israel is currently committing genocide in in Gaza. But I say that the UN has not passed any resolutions substantiating that claim.

And now you presenting something from over 40 years ago also does nothing to prove your claim of current Israeli misdeeds..

But what it does prove is that you finally agree that it is UNGA or SC resolutions that are passed when the UN wants to make a binding declaration. Not a rapporteur report or a statement from the ICC or ICJ as you kept trying to get us to fall for. So at least we are headed in the right direction. We agree that resolutions are required.

So the task now, as it was before, is to find a UN resolution passed that supports your claim that Israel is currently committing genocide in Gaza and that they are practising apartheid.

Good luck, Mr. Phelps. It is indeed a Mission Impossible.

Pretzeled mumbo jumbo.

You have already been repeatedly educated that the only the ICJ, ICC and the special rapporteurs are the ones with a mandate to provide advisory opinions, prosecute or produce reports on genocide.

Even so I produced a resolution because am nice like that and because you asked that clearly prove Israel has engaged in genocide 40 years go. Combine that with what's going on in Gaza, the UN rapporteurs report and the ICJ verdict, it is irrefutably clear that Israel is engaged in genocide in Gaza.

Case closed.

 

[Klatuu]

Well there are similarities and dissimilarities.

The similarity is that in the 30s Zionists were massacring Palestinians then. They are masscring them now.

The dissimilarity is that while Jews suffered under fascist white supremacists in the west in the 30s, today they lead happy, safe lives thanks to a diverse Canada, especially a city that is majority POC.

Unreliable source. Plus the NYT has proven itself to be full of Zionist plants when they were exposed for false reporting regarding Hamas rapes.

On Isabel Kershner:

In her role reporting on Israeli-Palestinian issues, she has been accused of conflict of interest, as her son has served in the Israel Defense Forces,[4][5] and her husband is an employee of the Institute for National Security Studies, which is involved in promoting a positive image of Israel, and which Kershner often relies on as a source.[6][7]

Good work on Isabel Kershner. Plus all “sources “ are unnamed. A huge red flag in journalism

 

[Frankfooter]

Why don't we start with your claims that Israel is committing genocide and practises apartheid. Where are those resolutions backing up your claims?

They are going through the proper channels, hammy.
ICJ and ICC then to the UN GA and UN SC.

Hammy, how many Jews do you think in Canada are 'self hating Jews', as you like to call them.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787958129801785846

US paused bomb shipment to Israel over Rafah invasion plan: Report

The Associated Press (AP) news agency reports that the US paused sending a shipment of bombs to Israel last week over concerns that Israel would launch a full-scale assault on Rafah.
Attributing the information to “a senior administration official”, the AP said the shipment was to have consisted of 1,800 2,000-pound (more than 900kg) bombs and 1,700 500-pound bombs (226 kg).
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the decision to pause the shipment was made last week and no final decision had been made yet on whether to proceed with the transfer of weapons at a later date

 

[Frankfooter]

I'll respond to serious points. Try again.

The whole point of discussing binding resolutions is to prove or disprove your unending claims of genocide and apartheid by Israel. I am challenging those two claims and my evidence is that there are no such resolutions. As such those claims of yours are clearly false. You are fully aware of this but continue to attempt to foment hate against Israel based on those lies.

You need to stop making those claims.

No, the whole point is that you have moved the goal posts to the tiniest spot you can find, knowing that the US regularly vetoes resolutions against Israel.
Its the last corner left for you, you have no other moral ground.

Its a tiny, self made, corner, painted in blood.

 

[Frankfooter]

I'm starting to wonder how similar or dissimilar this is to 1930's Germany...

In 1933/34 while antisemitism was on the rise in Germany, most German Jews did not realize what was happening, and couldn't imagine how horrific it would become.

Until it was too late for most of them...

Its amazing that you can pretzel your way into this rationalization.
Israel is the occupying power, they've been occupying Palestine for 75 years.
They've wiped it off the maps, turned Gaza into a concentration camp and now are bombing refugees and killing women and children, all backed by US money and bombs and a state of the art armory.

Israel is committing genocide on Palestinians and still you think zionists are the victims.
The repercussions coming to zionism are going to be legal and political, brought on by idiotically racist and primitive ideology.

Every time I hear a Jew who still can't learn what Never Again means makes me wonder how humanity survives.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787957468330647973

 

[Frankfooter]

Reading comprehension seems not to be one of your strong suits. That is not what I have been imploring you to provide.

You and Geno are claiming that Israel is currently committing genocide in in Gaza. But I say that the UN has not passed any resolutions substantiating that claim.

And now you presenting something from over 40 years ago also does nothing to prove your claim of current Israeli misdeeds..

But what it does prove is that you finally agree that it is UNGA or SC resolutions that are passed when the UN wants to make a binding declaration. Not a rapporteur report or a statement from the ICC or ICJ as you kept trying to get us to fall for. So at least we are headed in the right direction. We agree that resolutions are required.

So the task now, as it was before, is to find a UN resolution passed that supports your claim that Israel is currently committing genocide in Gaza and that they are practising apartheid.

Good luck, Mr. Phelps. It is indeed a Mission Impossible.

 

[Frankfooter]

CBC posts an article from an ex Israeli ambassador who says Netanyahu is prolonging the war solely for his own political career.
Netanyahu is so desperate he will destroy zionism through genocide just so he stays in power.

Netanyahu prolonging assault on Gaza for political gain: former ambassador
Hamas agreeing to ceasefire deal increases pressure on Netanyahu, says Alon Pinkas

 

[shack]

Pretzeled mumbo jumbo.

Logic which you are incapable of processing.

You have already been repeatedly educated that the only the ICJ, ICC and the special rapporteurs are the ones with a mandate to provide advisory opinions, prosecute or produce reports on genocide.

You have not educated me at all. Instead, you have educated TERB as to how little you know.

Advisory opinions are not resolutions. You laughed at opinions yourself when you said, like assholes, every one has opinions. It is "advice" based on an "opinion". A resolution is an official binding policy of the body of the UN. It is not advice. It is not opinion. It is a final conclusion.
Are you saying that an opinion carries more weight than a resolution like this:

November 6, 1962
On November 6, 1962, the United Nations General Assembly adopts a resolution condemning South Africa’s racist apartheid policies and calling on all its members to end economic and military relations with the country.

Does an opinion order all the members of the UN to end economic and military relations? Why has the UN not issued a binding resolution NOW regarding what is happening NOW like they did in 1982? The UN has shown us that this is how the UN works.

Even so I produced a resolution because am nice like that and because you asked that clearly prove Israel has engaged in genocide 40 years go. Combine that with what's going on in Gaza, the UN rapporteurs report and the ICJ verdict, it is irrefutably clear that Israel is engaged in genocide in Gaza.

What was nice about you providing a resolution from 1982 is that you prove my point for me. There are no current binding resolutions declaring that Israel is currently committing genocide. I am asking for proof from the UN of what you claim is happening now. You have failed miserably and I don't think that even Geno would take up your cause here.

Please explain how actions from over 40 years ago prove that Israel is currently committing genocide post Oct.7? You quote 35,000 dead as proof of genocide. What does 1982 have to do with this 35,000 dead in the last 7 months.

Yes, the case is closed because your arguments are seriously descending into the realm of idiocy and I will not lower myself to your level and have you beat me with your experience. You are embarrassing yourself with this line of (non)reasoning.

 

[shack]

No, the whole point is that you have moved the goal posts to the tiniest spot you can find, knowing that the US regularly vetoes resolutions against Israel.

UN protocol has been followed. No irregularities or illegal tactics were undertaken. The result of following UN rules/protocol is that no resolutions have resulted that declare Israel has committed genocide in this current conflict.

You may not like the rules and you may not like the outcome, but they are what they are. Change the rules or deal with it. I don't think that there are any other options for you.

 

[shack]

CBC posts an article from an ex Israeli ambassador who says Netanyahu is prolonging the war solely for his own political career.
Netanyahu is so desperate he will destroy zionism through genocide just so he stays in power.

Netanyahu prolonging assault on Gaza for political gain: former ambassador
Hamas agreeing to ceasefire deal increases pressure on Netanyahu, says Alon Pinkas

He may be correct but that is not germane to the discussion of if Israel is committing genocide or is an apartheid state. You should stop claiming that unless and until the UN says so.