And the question is, as always, "How much of the US population supports this"?
That answer has often been a number I don't like.
Israel at war
- Thread starter Butler1000
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That answer has often been a number I don't like.
It's an interesting analogy to make.
I appreciate he admits he is forcing some things to make it fit - not everyone would do that.
As I said in the other thread, the threat of police violence is a real one.
The "People protested the vietnam war and got Nixon who escalated the war" is also a parallel about the unintended consequences worth reminding people of.
The campus protests are tougher to match up, of course - the Vietnam protests in 68 were at a different place than the campus protests now. The fact it isn't a war sending US troops to via draft can't be discounted.
But still, people are making the 68-2024 analogies for a reason and they aren't crazy to do so.
Israel will stop the genocide, yes, but of course they won't stop the settler colonialism until outside pressure forces them.
2021, 2018, 2014, 2012, 2011, IIRC, all those attacks on Gaza stopped eventually. The longest being the Great March of Return, but that was only a weekly protest that lasted nearly a year. About 200 died and 14,000 or so injured, but it wasn't near what this was. This one is by far the most serious and deadly, and its only because Netanyahu is pressured and Biden is allowing it to happen. Previously Netanyahu knew when to stop before global outrage was too much, as when the 2021 protests became a PLM movement.
All Israeli attacks eventually stop.
The bigger problem is how to end the Negroponte doctrine and allow the UN, ICC and ICJ to finally take place and even more importantly, for the grassroots support for BDS to do what it did to South African Apartheid.
Will Netanyahu still be in power to try another attack in the next 4 years with an orange POTUS? That's unclear. He's incredibly unpopular but Netanyahu has survived other political challenges. Would he try this again? Unlikely. If he did would rump back him, probably. But will rump live through another 4 years in office? Also unlikely.
Will the dems change if Biden loses? Very likely. The wave against AIPAC is real and losing will look massive.
Your option is to put Biden back in, watch him protect Netanyahu as the ICC and ICJ try to rule and the US vetos those actions and blocks all UNSC resolutions, allowing the issue fester in the background for another 4 years until Ben Gvir or whoever leads next tries something much worse.
Do you really see that as better?
Do you have an alternate storyline that looks more plausible and has a better outcome?
Maybe comparing this attack on Gaza to the Tet Offensive is closer.
The whole TikTok bill is more complicated than I want to get into right now.
I'm just curious if this is the argument that people actually believe - that TikTok is being banned because Israel demanded it.
Why do you think they passed it right now?
Congress accused of using TikTok ban to silence Israel criticism
Over the weekend, the House of Representatives passed legislation that seeks to bar TikTok from operating in the U.S. if it does not divest from its Chinese parent-company, ByteDance.
www.newsweek.com
So if they all stop eventually, only to restart again, what does throwing Biden out accomplish for you, exactly?
Which voting Biden out accomplishes how?
So your strategy is to have Biden lose - hope that for the Dems this gets internalized as "He lost because of being too pro-Israel", then hope that in 4 years that is a sufficiently important cause that the Dems run on an pro-Palestine position and win?
This will "teach the Dems a lesson", presumably?
But you want the issue to fester.
You just said so.
You want to put the more pro-Israel party in, guaranteeing that the issue festers more and that eventual pressure makes the Dems support Palestine.
In fact, if Ben Gvir or whoever doesn't do something much worse, your whole plan falls apart.
Do I think Biden and the Dems in charge is a better outcome for the middle east than Trump and the GOP?
Yes.
Eh.
I can see an argument for that, but it's kind of thin.
The US was 4 years into having troops on the ground by then, no?
Still, there was a spike in outrage after.
I could see an actual Rafah ground assault being a reasonable analogy.
Because they got enough votes in the current environment.Why do you think they passed it right now?
Congress accused of using TikTok ban to silence Israel criticism
Over the weekend, the House of Representatives passed legislation that seeks to bar TikTok from operating in the U.S. if it does not divest from its Chinese parent-company, ByteDance.
But sure, some people on TikTok are saying it is because of Israel - so that must be true.
Well, if I hear more from him, I might end up agreeing.
He didn't embarrass himself here, so that's something.
Go to the channel. They produce content every Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. He is partnered with Krystal Ball(real name). Former Hill hosts who put it on the map.
Yes, I know The Hill.
That he is on it and partnered with Krystal Ball is a strong mark against him.
But maybe he can transcend all that.
They both created the channel. Opposing views. But they do well on independent topics and goid interviews as well. The Youtube channel will have a trove to get a better idea.
Don't discount them. Over 1 million subs and a large subsriber for money audience as well
I honestly didn't even recognize Saagar.
He looks different from what I remember.
I thought he was someone new, worth checking out.
"They are popular on youtube" just means they are good at getting a youtube audience. (And good for them!)
If it's the same two people doing the same schtick (and considering I didn't even realize it was a different show, it seems they are just doing the same schtick) then I'm not going to expect much from them.
That they represent a viewpoint that has an audience is very different from "they do good political analysis".
Joe Rogan is super popular and he is terrible at analyzing politics.
I know you find "But they're popular!" important, but I don't.
You haven't explained what a ziontologist is. And why would somebody study zionts?
No corporate censorship like they ran into at the Hill. And yes they have good analysis. Just because you don't agree doesn't make it valid. As well I find actually listening to viewspoints I disagree with both informative and allows me to gain insight into how a different audience thinks.
That is your primary problem. You refuse to acknowledge other opinions as valid, and have no empathy or understanding of differing viewpoints. You just claim a false superiority, one based in so called pragmatism that is really just refusal to consider change is possible. And a myopic view, supporting corruption, lies, false policy, all in the name of a house of cards of so called stability that is eroding, with no solution, just duct tape to try to hold it through another election cycle.
You don't see the the combination of factors driving the recent protests as an example. How both right wing isolationism has grown, especially among Democratic voters, coupled with an anti war message on the left. Both are actually in favor of the same thing, for different reasons but the same outcome.
I actually don't agree with them. But I empathize with them, understand there reasoning as valid, while stating my support for Israel remains valid as well. You don't.
Its sad.
Pro human rights position, not a pro Palestine position.
Yes, right now this is what I see as the best way to change the system without advocating for a butler 'tear it all down' approach. Turf the part of the party that's beholden to AIPAC, kill their influence and try to support the progressives in the party. To find a way to make it better.
No, what I want is for a ceasefire right now and for the leaders of both sides to be investigated and charged for all war crimes. For a campaign to end the occupation, apartheid and genocide and implement equal rights. What I want is for the progressive dems to move in and try to right the ship.
There is little chance any of that can happen bar a Berlin wall moment in the US so the best way I can see of changing the system is to turf Biden and AIPAC influence and play the longer game for systematic change. Its a very crappy second choice but its still better than the status quo.
Your option seems to be vote for it all to exactly the same and screw whatever happens over there as it doesn't matter.
What you seem to be arguing is that the genocide doesn't matter.
Trump in power would right now would be no better than Biden. But Biden being supported in his Israel position is essentially no different than rump in the Middle East except for a bit more ass kissing for Saudi cash.
