Israel at war

mandrill

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Right, but "Wipe out Hamas" may or may not mean that to lots of people.
You have people in this very thread (let alone in Israel) saying you can't do what you are suggesting above - you have to kill the local postmaster and schoolteacher as well.
And, as you say, if Israel doesn't like what happens to the administration they install, they reserve the right to invade again.
Which mirrors the whole lead up to October 7.
Israel left, Hamas got elected.
Israel didn't like it, but didn't invade (there was hardly peace, though).
Oct 7 happens, and we have the shit show we are seeing now.

Remember that during the whole time Hamas existed, there were people in Israel saying that Hamas being elected was enough reason to invade again.
As far as they are concerned, Hamas proved them right on October 7, so next time Israel shouldn't wait until October 7 - if a group with any similarity to Hamas was elected, they should be overthrown immediately.
Or you can just not allow Palestinians to elect their own government.

None of this is easy, or simple, or obvious, and no matter how much some people want to argue that if you just kill enough people it will all work out, colour me unconvinced.
post #13,124
 

shack

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It was happening before oct 7th been going on for years, oct 7th was just one blowback
This current war started with the Oct. 7 terror attack. By an amazing coincidence, it's called the Oct.7 War.

It's like a similar coincidence where Lou Gehrig caught the disease that had his name.

BTW, it's nice to see you supporting terrorist attacks.
 

shack

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Iran says it was a drone, that limits who it could have been to pretty much one country.

Israel is a threat to world peace.
Islamic State.

Your insightful analysis is as accurate always.

Which means you are totally off base, wrong, not even close, incorrect, false, clueless, inaccurate and driven by blind hatred.

You are as accurate as the Hamas rocket that hit it's own hospital.

Are you going to fix your post so it says that "Islam is a threat to world peace"? BTW, have you condemned this act of terror. We know how much you despise acts of terror.
 
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basketcase

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Israel’s changing of tactic is precisely due to their inability to root out hamas by occupying all critical grounds. Now the strain on logistics and economy is too much to carry on, they go for a more frugal approach. The so called precision is simply assassinating high ranking hamas leaders, which doesnt work because hamas is not organized like that. Heck israel killed the founder of hamas and it didnt do any damage to the organization.
And explanation

 
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mandrill

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Yes the only neutral position is being pro-Palestinian and anti-terrorism. Being pro-Israel simply means, you support genocide, and are in defence of a toxic, non-inclusive ideology like Zionism. Being pro-Palestinian means you want the actual victims in this conflict to get justice.

No I don't want Hamas to surrender, as of now. I want them to do one of two things - a) Fight the Israelis, but only the IDF. b) Stop any and all attacks on Israeli civilians. The only time I would support surrender, is if Israel stops attacks and makes genuine attempts to work for Palestinian statehood. Kowtowing to colonialism, is not something anyone should support. It is for the same reason I support Ukraine, and not Russia, despite Russia being friendly with India.
Yeah, I'm sure Hamas will do exactly what you suggest starting right away.

Fatuous nonsense.
 
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nottyboi

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Because this way, it will take so long that you still get to see 500,000 Palestinians die.

All of your suggestions are idiotic. All of them result in more deaths in gaza.

Israel will not agree to a ceasefire at this point.

So the only two realistic options are, Hamas keeps fighting and the violence goes on indefinitely or Hamas surrenders.

Thus far your choice has always meant that you endorse the deaths of 500,000 Palestinians.
500K dead palis is better then 4m dead Palis.
 

basketcase

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Israel has been the military occupying power for 75 years.
They choose when the occupation ends, not the victims of the occupation.
And once again you deny the whole existence of Israel and you pretend that Arabs are incapable of being capable of making their own decisions like the true racist you are.
 
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shack

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The constantly evaporating rape story
The constantly evaporating "Islam is a religion of peace" story.

There are whole groups of people that they'd love to kill just for taking part in some of the activities that we take for granted here. I don't know how you can support them.
 

nottyboi

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This current war started with the Oct. 7 terror attack. By an amazing coincidence, it's called the Oct.7 War.

It's like a similar coincidence where Lou Gehrig caught the disease that had his name.

BTW, it's nice to see you supporting terrorist attacks.
Its not pretty but I don't see how they had any other reasonable options. Please advise of the reasonable solution I somehow missed.
 

nottyboi

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This current war started with the Oct. 7 terror attack. By an amazing coincidence, it's called the Oct.7 War.

It's like a similar coincidence where Lou Gehrig caught the disease that had his name.

BTW, it's nice to see you supporting terrorist attacks.
Only idiots actually believe that. 🤣🧐
 
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shack

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Delusional
Prove it. Show the documentation of this being official Israeli government policy. Let's see the piece of paper, Mr. one word on a repeat loop.

Maybe change your name to Kla d'uhh. (Shack of sit is still better. I hope you keep using it.)
 
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mandrill

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As fatuous as the question or claiming that the IDF only attacks Hamas, and does not mass murder and genocide the Palestinians.
Christianity is/was far more violent than Islam ever was. Just ask the Jews.
That's weird. No Christians ever flew a jet into a hi rise office building in Teheran or Dubai.
 

mandrill

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Its not pretty but I don't see how they had any other reasonable options. Please advise of the reasonable solution I somehow missed.
Hmm, I dunno. Maybe if they hadn't gang-raped the women and killed the little babies?
 

mandrill

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Israel’s changing of tactic is precisely due to their inability to root out hamas by occupying all critical grounds. Now the strain on logistics and economy is too much to carry on, they go for a more frugal approach. The so called precision is simply assassinating high ranking hamas leaders, which doesnt work because hamas is not organized like that. Heck israel killed the founder of hamas and it didnt do any damage to the organization.
Remember I posted that map yesterday showing Israel holding about 90% of Gaza City?

Yup. They got that 90% by killing Hamas.

You're about as quaint as Frankie telling us that Israel would give up and let the Palestinians win if enough people demonstrate against Israel in the West. So get your placard and button up that overcoat!
 

shack

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Unintelligent, naive, not factual, redundant and not worthy of a response.
But you couldn't resist.

I will answer your question though: Hamas should keep fighting as long as Israel keeps mass murdering, genociding and subjecting Palestinians to apartheid and oppression. There is nothing else Hamas can do. Accepting the status quo is unfortunately not an option.

Now since you are such a stand up guy, answer my question. And it is an either or type of question as well: At this point, after 75 years, do you think Israel should continue their apartheid, mass murder, oppression and land stealing or reverse course, change policy and address root causes of the conflict and work for Palestinian sovereignty instead?
[/QUOTE]That's like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

Ask me an honest question that is not based on lies and I'll give you an honest answer.

BTW, when is the last time/how many times has Hamas formally asked for diplomatic talks (to be moderated by mutually agreed upon countries) to try to resolve their grievances instead of launching rocket and terror attacks?

Civilized, truly peace loving people always have that option. So yes, there are things they can do beside launching terrorist attacks. Neutral terrorist attacks, obviously.

p.s. You corrected me on the spelling of Gandhi, so:

Genocide is a noun, not a verb.
 
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shack

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And if it wasn’t for Israel’s racism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing and occupation, tens of thousands of people would still be alive.
Delusional.
 
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basketcase

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...

As I said, use covert operations. I do not have to define how. ...
Because you know it essentially can not be done except in rare occasions where Hamas screws up and info somehow gets back to israel.

Where have they said it is a temporary measure?
They are clear that if they met every Palestinian demand they refuse accept a Jewish presence.

In their 2017 policy document, they do have a line about the '67 lines but it is surrounded by:
  • The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah
  • There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.
  • Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.
  • Hamas rejects all the agreements, initiatives and settlement projects that are aimed at undermining the Palestinian cause and the rights of our Palestinian people. In this regard, any stance, initiative or political programme must not in any way violate these rights and should not contravene them or contradict them.
 

shack

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If there were no resistance they would not have been moving at the current pace, you are contradicting yourself.
Its simple, war is expensive, israel is small. If they could they would want to finish this in two weeks, which is what i think their original plan was.
They could have if they had done all the things they've been accused of like: carpet bombing, bombing indiscriminately, targetting civilians, targetting hospitals and schools that weren't Hamas enclaves, flooding every tunnel, burning Gazans alive, deceiving civilians as to where the safer places to stay were, not sending flyers showing the civilians which routes that Israel has secured for them to use, using nukes like frank suggested. Those would have all sped up proceedings.

Yes, they could have done it faster. Thanks for helping me point out the ways that, even though it's taking them more time, they have tried to spare as many Palestinian lives as possible. You have helped point out how difficult the task was with Hamas using as many human shields as they could. It's virtually impossible but Israel is taking precautions that are unprecedented in wartime to try to save lives.

Thank you zsyd, you have provided an invaluable service to the people reading this thread and looking for some truth. Shalom.
 
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