Is the Kessel trade the greatest fleecing in NHL history?

[Dawgger]

I hate the trade with conviction, but it's not the worst. In Kessel you have a tangible talent, but the point that Burke fails to acknowledge to this day is that you don't trade unprotected 1st rounders when you're not expected to make the playoffs. Boston was anxious to get his attitude, salary demands and limited game out of town, and would've settled for less than what the Leafs offered.

Agree you don't trade picks when you aren't suppose to make the playoffs. Think Burke would agree with that too. My opinion is Burke thought that with the improvements he believed he made on defence combined with Kessel there was no way Leafs would not make the playoffs.

 

[fmahovalich]

The Leafs woes are not Kessels fault. They are at the bottom for many reasons....And SEGUIN would not have changed that as of this date..

SEGUIN 6G 7A - playing on a good team
KESSEL 14G 11A - playing on a shit team.

SEGUIN has a better +/- - however that is a hard stat to rate given its a 5 man group effort.

So as of this date....Toronto is winning the deal.

All the rest is speculation!!

 

[Dawgger]

The Leafs woes are not Kessels fault. They are at the bottom for many reasons....And SEGUIN would not have changed that as of this date..

SEGUIN 6G 7A - playing on a good team
KESSEL 14G 11A - playing on a shit team.

SEGUIN has a better +/- - however that is a hard stat to rate given its a 5 man group effort.

So as of this date....Toronto is winning the deal.

All the rest is speculation!!

Do you think Boston would trade Seguin even up for Kessel? I like Kessel as a player, but by the time the leafs become competitive he will be past his prime.

 

[sleazure]

As long as we're on the subject, I really liked Owen Nolan, but that trade turned out to be a disaster. We gave up Brad Boyes, Alan McCauley, and our first pick for 2003. He had a few good games here, and he helped to groom Matt Stajan after he got called up, but missed a lot of games due to injuries, then didn't return after the lockout.

Edit: Oh, I forgot. They also gave up Aki Berg as part of the package. Maybe it wasn't such a bad deal after all.

 

[fmahovalich]

To answer the question...I don;t think Toronto would trade for Seguin nor would Boston trade for kessel even up.

Toronto needs to surround Kessel with talent....

Torontos woes are not Kessels fault

 

[alwayslooking]

Not that either one of those guys is establishing anything close to Hall of Fame credentials while in Toronto, my whole post was a sarcastic dig at all the wannabe GM's who have the luxury of hindsight in their never ending and over the top criticsms (although some are definitely deserved). The title of this thread is a classic example of the over reaction of many "fans" that I was attempting to parody.

Hindsight for wannabe GM's is fine They are not paid millions of dollars a year to make decisions like Burke is. Pretty much every GM that has been fired has been fired because of hindsight If Kessel needs a playmaking centre to be an effective scorer Burke should've realized this before he ever traded for Kessel. I am by no means a Leafs fan but just looking at the trade Burke has contradicted his own blowhard statements when he came to the Leafs. We heard "we don't trade players here we develop players" well he's not doing that by trading away 2 1sts and a 2nd. A couple of friends of mine are both Bruins fans and to put it mildly they are ecstatic with this trade...are any Leafs fans ecstatic? Both also told me that Kessel would need a centre to be effective. You see many 1st line centres available? It seems every year the Leafs are going to sign a big time free agent only to watch him be resigned early by his current team or the player decides to go to another team(Rick Nash anyone) Also assuming that Burke is given 5 years to build the Leafs into a playoff team before there is pressure to get rid of him this trade has likely set the rebuilding back a couple of years. Again what top 5 picks can do for a team in the NHL especially when a couple are grouped together is something that should rarely be traded away for someone of Kessel's skill level.

Like you said it will take a few years but if these picks end up anything like Ovechkin/Backstrom, Crosby/Malkin, Toews/Kane this will go down at least as the Leafs worst trade.

 

[fmahovalich]

Your right "AlwaysLooking"...hindsight is worth nothing!

But your speculation is worth nothing either.

We are talking about the trade...Kessel for 2 first rounders.....(Seguin and ????)

Without the trade the Leafs would be far worse than they are....


So to date....Leafs are winning the trade....

Anything else is SPECULATION!!!

...to answer the poster.....Is is a fleecing?....... Who knows!!!!

 

[alwayslooking]

Well like you said in an earlier post the Leafs need to surround "Kessel with talent". How do you suppose they do that now with nothing of any value(maybe Kaberle)to trade and no real way to acquire talent until the 2012 draft? You're right in that I should of titled this thread "Could the Kessel trade be the greatest fleecing in NHL history?"

Admittedly in "hindsight" I unintentionally used a little hyperbole in titling this thread but the mere fact that people can discuss the notion of this trade as the worst or 1 of the worst here shows that the trade is shaping up to be a bad one for the Leafs already.

If you look at the 4 North American team sports the only 1 I would consider trading 2 top 5 picks is baseball. Two top 5's in the NBA, NFL or the NHL is insane unless you are getting a franchise player like Brady/Manning, Crosby or LeBron/Kobe back. Kessel is not in these athletes class. Like I said earlier Burke's biggest mistake was overestimating the talent on his own roster which is why these picks ended up much higher than he likely predicted at the time of the trade.

 

[gcostanza]

How do you suppose they do that now with nothing of any value(maybe Kaberle)to trade and no real way to acquire talent until the 2012 draft?

If you look at the 4 North American team sports the only 1 I would consider trading 2 top 5 picks is baseball. Two top 5's in the NBA, NFL or the NHL is insane unless you are getting a franchise player like Brady/Manning, Crosby or LeBron/Kobe back. Kessel is not in these athletes class.

You are a buffoon.

Kaberle has a no-trade clause in his contract, and cannot be traded without his approval.
He has given no indication that he plans on doing that.

Baseball draft picks are not tradeable.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, this trade does not come close to being the worst trade in NHL history, hell, it's not even close to the worst trade in Maple Leaf history. (Kordic/Jarvis, Kurvers/draft pick that turned into Niedermayer as 2 examples mentioned already)

 

[alwayslooking]

touch a nerve did I? Sorry man wasn't aware mlb picks were not tradeable. Calm down Costanza. Also how many times has Kaberle's name come up in trade discussions oh almost every year when they ask him to waive the clause. He's given plenty of of indication. Didn't he just last year give a list of teams he would be willing to be traded to? Yeah sounds like that's an untradeable guy. You ever heard of negotiations? No one is untradeable if you make it worth their while to be tradeable Also didn't he have a window where the no trade clause was void?

Angry much? "Buffoon" good one

 

[alwayslooking]

You are a buffoon.

Kaberle has a no-trade clause in his contract, and cannot be traded without his approval.
He has given no indication that he plans on doing that.

Baseball draft picks are not tradeable.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, this trade does not come close to being the worst trade in NHL history, hell, it's not even close to the worst trade in Maple Leaf history. (Kordic/Jarvis, Kurvers/draft pick that turned into Niedermayer as 2 examples mentioned already)

Wow what an angry little Leaf fan. Sorry Burke has killed your franchise for the next 5 years and probably after that. I bet you in 5 years this will be up there as 1 of the worst Almost every team that has sustained excellence does it through the draft. I guess the 1967 chants are getting to you. I get the feeling that Bruins games are going to be very hard to watch for Leafs fans for the next decade.

 

[maurice93]

Your right "AlwaysLooking"...hindsight is worth nothing!

But your speculation is worth nothing either.

We are talking about the trade...Kessel for 2 first rounders.....(Seguin and ????)

Without the trade the Leafs would be far worse than they are....


So to date....Leafs are winning the trade....

Anything else is SPECULATION!!!

...to answer the poster.....Is is a fleecing?....... Who knows!!!!

Basically you reduce the trade to this year only in order to refute any logical arguments against the future implications. Simply awesome.

But lets play at your rules. Let's keep it at this year only. You do realize the Bruins are saving about $4M out of this deal. You know, the cap space they were able to use to get Nathan Horton. (and the assets they gave for him are no better then the 2011 Leafs first -- actually slightly worse)

So if you want to keep it simply to this year then lets do Kessel for Nathan Horton and Tyler Seguin.

 

[shack]

Hindsight for wannabe GM's is fine They are not paid millions of dollars a year to make decisions like Burke is.

Hindsight for wannabe GM's is not fine because you never have to make a decision that is held up to scrutiny. Not a level playing field.

GM's like Burke are paid millions because they have years of hands on experience in the industry and their reputations and careers are put on the line for the decisions they make. Please tell us your credentials and how many offers you have received to run a team.

Come back when you've had to make the actual decisions without any hindsight to help you and you have made no mistakes. Until then you are simply "alwayslookingtomakeyourselfseemsmarterthanyoureallyare."

 

[maurice93]

The thing is the majority of people that were not Leaf fans blasted it the day the deal was made.

And we were told then -- wait till the season is done, your not a GM..

And now some time has passed, and the results are bad on the draft pick, and now the Captain Hindsight rhetoric comes out. So basically Leaf truthers have made it impossible to bash Burke at any time on the deal.

 

[alwayslooking]

Hindsight for wannabe GM's is not fine because you never have to make a decision that is held up to scrutiny. Not a level playing field.

GM's like Burke are paid millions because they have years of hands on experience in the industry and their reputations and careers are put on the line for the decisions they make. Please tell us your credentials and how many offers you have received to run a team.

Come back when you've had to make the actual decisions without any hindsight to help you and you have made no mistakes. Until then you are simply "alwayslookingtomakeyourselfseemsmarterthanyoureallyare."

What decisions in sports are fine to criticize then? Who's allowed to criticize those decisions? Is the media allowed, the fans. Who? You take the good with the bad. He's paid millions of dollars by the team and effectively the fans so they have every right to gripe if they want. Burke came into town pretty much on a white horse and so far I would say it's been a failure. Since Cliff Fletcher no Leafs GM should've been paid millions.

Also this is sports it's tailor made for people that aren't qualified to have an opinion. The ownership loves this because the $$$ keeps rollin in. Listen to the Fan or watch OTR or the Grill Room, How many of the contributors are actually qualified to criticize? Would you agree that for the most part that it's a good idea to try and hold onto your draft picks and if at all possible acquire more? I'm more of an NFL fan than NHL and nothing sets a team back like bad draft days and giving away draft picks.

That thing you did with my handle that's pretty good

 

[shack]

That thing you did with my handle that's pretty good

Thanks. Not sure why it kept showing a space between the two "L's" in really. I tried 3 or 4 times to eliminate it but nothing worked.

Anyways, obviously it's OK to criticize, but as I mentioned previously, it should be done in a balanced and objective way, not making it sound like a man who has made it to the top of the industry is a total moron and we could do a better job. It just makes the arguments one is trying to put forth, less likely to be taken seriously, which is self-defeating.

 

[smuddan]

And Kadri is the worst draft choice of all time.
And Komisarek and Beauchemin are the worst free agent signings of all time.
Retaining Wilson as coach is the worst management move of all time.
Obviously, Burke is the worst GM of all time.

Just by reading TERB I can see we must have at least 2 dozen members who are more qualified to run the team.

You are some kind of Leafs/Burke fan Shack.

Here we have a franchise which for 2 years in a row is struggling to stay out of the basement and has no first round pick to show for. Getting rid of the likes of Blake and Toskala might have been the best moves Burke has made since he took control; but what else has he brought on the team except Kessel ? Take a look at the overall talent on this team and tell me if you honestly feel that we should have reasonable hopes that it can become a contender in the forseeable fuure ? And what exactly has Wilson accomplished as a Leafs coach ? Won-loss records ? Specailty team records ? What else would you used to measure a coach's abilities ?

These are hard facts you ignore. Intead of holding management accountable for these failures, you choose to pick on and mock your fellow Leafs for their passionate ceiticism. Granted, some of the comments might have been over the top, but you can't deny that your comments were somewhat exergerated also as I don't really recall reading exact same comments from any posters here.

I'd never critisize single moves made but I look for overall results and a direction the team is heading. Too many unknown factors to fans when individual decisions are made so the only way we fans can judge is by the results, or hindsight as you might call it. These GMs are paid millions to do a job and when the results are not there, no excuses are ever good enough.

 

[shack]

You are some kind of Leafs/Burke fan Shack.

I have a lot of respect for Burke. He seems like a straight shooter who isn't afraid to say what's on his mind even if it's not politically correct. I like his style and as a Leaf fan I hope he does well.

Here we have a franchise which for 2 years in a row is struggling to stay out of the basement and has no first round pick to show for. Getting rid of the likes of Blake and Toskala might have been the best moves Burke has made since he took control; but what else has he brought on the team except Kessel ? Take a look at the overall talent on this team and tell me if you honestly feel that we should have reasonable hopes that it can become a contender in the forseeable fuure ? And what exactly has Wilson accomplished as a Leafs coach ? Won-loss records ? Specailty team records ? What else would you used to measure a coach's abilities ?

I'll agree that Wilson has not accomplished as much as I'd hoped for with the amount of time he's been here. I'm sure he know his stuff and has had moderate success in the past, but if the players aren't going to perform for him in this situation, he should go. I don't have a problem with him finishing the season but if there is not at least moderate improvement (and not just the last 3 weeks of the season) and optimism for the future I'm pretty sure Burke will let him go.

I'd never critisize single moves made but I look for overall results and a direction the team is heading.

I tend to agree with (as I'd previously mentioned) some of Damien Cox' recent columns where he believes Burke has definitely made some mistakes but also sees some good building blocks in place. He sees the potential for light at the end of the tunnel. We are still the youngest team in the league and it is not unrealistic to expect the young players to improve with age and experience. Several things have to go right obviously and not give away any more 1st rounders.

He also is not crucifying Burke for the Kessel trade. How about all the years the Leafs did have 1st round picks. How many superstars have there been. There is no guarantee that every 1st rounder is going to be a gem. Kessel was barely older than draft eligible when the Leafs got him and he is a real talent and had demonstrated that talent in the league. If all our draft picks were as good as Kessel (with different talents) we'd be laughing. He's the equivalent of the Leafs making a very good 1st round pick but not having him for only the first two years of his career.

you choose to pick on and mock your fellow Leafs for their passionate ceiticism. Granted, some of the comments might have been over the top, but you can't deny that your comments were somewhat exergerated

Absolutely my comments were exaggerated and I admitted I was doing it as a parody of the over the top comments you refer to. I don't mock the passionate criticism per se, I mock the people who make it seem like they could do a better job. They make it seem like any mistake that Burke made was blatantly obvious from the very beginning. Until they are in the position of having their moves scrutinized by millions they should temper those criticisms and at least admit that almost every move is a crap shoot and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. The results have been very disappointing but I think it is hard to deny the Leafs have a better chance of improving with the moves Burke has made as compared to the team JFJ and Fletcher left Burke to work with.

 

[highlander16]

If Kessel would have had an amazing year, last year, we wouldn't be discussing this!

 

[splooge]

that was an amazing year for Kessel. this is what he is capable of...