I'm a forensic psychiatrist at Yale. I took a look at Trump's letter to Nancy Pelosi

[Butler1000]

Listen Butler, you are all over the place with your very right wing partisan arguments. Your original post associated the torture with Assad. Now you are backtracking to the torture by the CIA of the el-Qaeda prisoners. Why do you not point that blame squarely on the President and his regime. He was a certain George Bush Junior. But of course your agenda is attack the Democrats and give a pass to the Republicans. So there you go, as you are okay with the Republicans meeting with Assad, but condemned Pelosi for doing the same until I pointed out your hypocrisy in this respect!!

Nothing could be worse than the slaughter of the Kurds thanks to Donald Trump pulling out the troops and allowing the Turks to carry out that Genocide. Do you think that Pelosi who was not the one responsible for the "waterboarding" has less credibility than Trump who gave the green signal for the Turks to do what they did??

You are the myopic individual who is the most partisan individual but pretends to be a "progressive" Sanders' supporter!!

They rendered prisoners to Syria for torture. And used Assad torturers to do the deed. The CIA did this. And Pelosi was briefed in it and approved it.

It's that simple. It's in the Afghanistan papers. Her attendance at the briefings that were specifically about "enhanced interegation". As a member of the Congressional oversight committee.

 

[Butler1000]

Clinton said "more of you are going to be left behind"? Ok, dude.

You actually just said neocon/liberal like they are the same policies?

But, underneath your sloppy thinking is a germ of a point. There are a lot of people who the system isn't helping who just want to vote "someone change something"! That is a voting block. They don't really have an ideology other than that. That is the sort of Ron Paul to Bernie to Trump voter.

Luckily, there aren't that many of those, and the ones who start paying attention usually pick some political ideologies or policies and start making decisions based on that. The others just go from one thing to the next because they don't care that the positions are contradictory they just want to "shake the system man".

Ask the Virginia Coal miners what her message was. They will tell you clearly. Just like Obama did when he said the jobs were gone and not coming back. And we have no planes to help you.

A Neo Con/Liberal means they believe the same things and fake being on either side of the aisle.

They support unlimited military budgets and all if the attentant corruption. They believe in unfettered capitalism without oversight or laws. They believe in no borders for corporations to continue to undermine the working class.

That's why I say it's a class war. They are the new gilded barons.

 

[Butler1000]

Why? That tells you next to nothing about how racist they are. (It tells you they were likely pretty racist but it is hardly a guarantee. We also don't know how many people fall into this. We have a good sense of people who switched 2012 to 2016 but not that many for 2008 AND 2012 and then switch in 2016.



That's Frankie's problem. It isn't nearly that simple. Yes, the more racist you are the more likely you were to vote for Trump (it is one of the strongest correlations, along with education and being a white evangelical). But you can't just say "voted for Trump, therefore racist". Even now, where Trump has gone out of his way to prove his racist bono fides and you can't even pretend he won't actually do racist shit if he wins, every single person who votes for Trump won't be a racist.



Until I know your definition of "class", I can't tell you if you are wrong. Well, I can't tell you *how* wrong you are. There is basically no definition of class that will outweigh race in the analysis of the last election, or likely the upcoming one. The only class definitions that are remotely helpful are ones that include race.



Then the Democrats win. Every single candidate in the democratic primary is running on improving health care and Trump is running on making it worse.

Class war as in working class vs ruling class. It's about economics.

 

[Valcazar]

Do you have a definition of that? Economic? Access to power? Education?

You say it is all about economics, but you don't seem to know anything about economics.

Explain, since I'm clearly not understanding, how the Trump vote was about economics.

 

[Frankfooter]

Frankie contends every single person who voted for Trump is a racist. Has for years now.

Total nonsense, butler.
Where do you come up with bullshit like that?

The fact that Trump campaigned on misdirecting Americans into thinking that it isn't the economic divide between wealth and poor but instead immigrants coming to take their jobs doesn't make everyone who voted for Trump racist.
Sure, there are an awful of racists backing him, but not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist.

They support unlimited military budgets and all if the attentant corruption. They believe in unfettered capitalism without oversight or laws. They believe in no borders for corporations to continue to undermine the working class.

That's why I say it's a class war. They are the new gilded barons.

That's Trump to a T.
The guy you keep backing with his new space force and tax breaks for millionaires.

You're a classic case of someone who fell for the misdirection, someone who claims to be for Sanders social policies yet keeps backing Trump and his corrupt plutocracy primarily for his attacks on immigrants and people of colour.

 

[wilbur]

Back to the topic at hand, this psychiatrist is in breach of professional ethics. A psychiatrist, who is a medical doctor, does not diagnose a person without dealing directly with that person.

In any case, it's ludicrous to think that Trump would have personally written that letter. He certainly proof read it, but he would have assigned the task of writing it to the person or team that actually did it.

To most of those who denounce that letter as 'rambling', it's indicative that they have no time to hear what he has to say, as they likely never read it. Since the Democrat controlled mass media keeps on repeating it, then it must be true. That's how Goebbels operated.

 

[Butler1000]

Total nonsense, butler.
Where do you come up with bullshit like that?

The fact that Trump campaigned on misdirecting Americans into thinking that it isn't the economic divide between wealth and poor but instead immigrants coming to take their jobs doesn't make everyone who voted for Trump racist.
Sure, there are an awful of racists backing him, but not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist.



That's Trump to a T.
The guy you keep backing with his new space force and tax breaks for millionaires.

You're a classic case of someone who fell for the misdirection, someone who claims to be for Sanders social policies yet keeps backing Trump and his corrupt plutocracy primarily for his attacks on immigrants and people of colour.

I think only bver has a bigger (And only slightly) case of TDS at this point.

The myopic partisan diatribes just continue to spew forth and with such predictability.

 

[shack]

Back to the topic at hand, this psychiatrist is in breach of professional ethics. A psychiatrist, who is a medical doctor, does not diagnose a person without dealing directly with that person.

Do you have the statute of his licensing jurisdiction that says so? There are no universal set of rules. Every jurisdiction has their own independent regulations.

Is it a breach of ethics to have an opinion?

Your point is meritless.

 

[Valcazar]

They rendered prisoners to Syria for torture. And used Assad torturers to do the deed. The CIA did this. And Pelosi was briefed in it and approved it.

It's that simple. It's in the Afghanistan papers. Her attendance at the briefings that were specifically about "enhanced interegation". As a member of the Congressional oversight committee.

I see. Since you've read the papers, can you point me to the relevant documents in the Washington Post Afghanistan Papers? I am having trouble finding them.

Ask the Virginia Coal miners what her message was. They will tell you clearly. Just like Obama did when he said the jobs were gone and not coming back. And we have no planes to help you.

How many billions no longer counts as nothing to you? $10 billion $20 billion $30 billion $40 billion? How much help would a candidate have to pledge for you to say they are doing something?

A Neo Con/Liberal means they believe the same things and fake being on either side of the aisle.

They support unlimited military budgets and all if the attentant corruption. They believe in unfettered capitalism without oversight or laws. They believe in no borders for corporations to continue to undermine the working class. [/QUOTE]

So... you don't know what those words mean? (Also, while you're at it, can you put in a definition for "neoliberal" because I am really surprised you didn't include it.)

As far as I can gather, that definition above defines both neocons and liberals?

Can you name a politician who supports those positions? That might help clarify things.

That's why I say it's a class war. They are the new gilded barons.

Who is "they" in this bit?

 

[Valcazar]

Back to the topic at hand, this psychiatrist is in breach of professional ethics. A psychiatrist, who is a medical doctor, does not diagnose a person without dealing directly with that person.

Believe it or not, I agree with Wilbur here. I don't think diagnosing Trump at distance from a letter is ethical, professionally.

In any case, it's ludicrous to think that Trump would have personally written that letter. He certainly proof read it, but he would have assigned the task of writing it to the person or team that actually did it.

I agree with this as well. My guess is Stephen Miller (it has a lot of rhetorical tics you see in the speeches we know he wrote and that he uses when on TV) was the main writer, including commentary and input from Trump.

To most of those who denounce that letter as 'rambling', it's indicative that they have no time to hear what he has to say, as they likely never read it. Since the Democrat controlled mass media keeps on repeating it, then it must be true. That's how Goebbels operated.

I've read the letter. It is rambling, I find. There is a basic through line of why impeachment is bad, but each argument is full of extraneous material and then the core argument doesn't actually build. It goes from a complain on impeachment to how great he is to why Pelosi is at the whim of her caucus, etc. The whole thing could be cut down to 4 pages easy and still have all the relevant information, even less if he just kept it focused on impeachment itself and his issues with the process.

 

[Butler1000]

I see. Since you've read the papers, can you point me to the relevant documents in the Washington Post Afghanistan Papers? I am having trouble finding them.




How many billions no longer counts as nothing to you? $10 billion $20 billion $30 billion $40 billion? How much help would a candidate have to pledge for you to say they are doing something?



They support unlimited military budgets and all if the attentant corruption. They believe in unfettered capitalism without oversight or laws. They believe in no borders for corporations to continue to undermine the working class.

So... you don't know what those words mean? (Also, while you're at it, can you put in a definition for "neoliberal" because I am really surprised you didn't include it.)

As far as I can gather, that definition above defines both neocons and liberals?

Can you name a politician who supports those positions? That might help clarify things.



Who is "they" in this bit?[/QUOTE]

It's the Neo part that counts.

The two party leadership's are on the same page. Just look at the massive military budget increases without dissent for the last two decades. Then look at the massive Intelligence Services now in the USA. And the power they wield under the Patriot act.

Then look at the press which is fully on board now with both. Where they cheerlead the wars, engage in outright propogandist lies, and even have several former heads of agencies and operatives as pundits.

These are the "Neo" prefixes.

As to the Gilded Barons I'd say Bezos, Bloomberg, the Waltons qualify. Bloomberg joined the race not to actually be President but to bypass campaign spending laws on negative advertising and play spoiler if Sanders is winning. He can spend a billion without blinking now and genuinely affect the outcome of the Democratic race. And the General.
If that doesn't scare you, then you really need to rethink things.

 

[wilbur]

The issue that it is 'rambling' depends entirely of who you believe. If you don't believe anything coming from Trump, then it is rambling in that it's meaningless.

But if you think that it's a last desperate attempt by the Democrats to remove Trump by any means, then it makes sense.

The letter was written as a rebuttal to the impeachment and is meant to be a historical record, that will be referred to many years from now by future constitutional scholars.

 

[shack]

Believe it or not, I agree with Wilbur here. I don't think diagnosing Trump at distance from a letter is ethical, professionally.

I don't think it was a professional diagnosis that would be admissible in court. It could be easily argued that it is an informed opinion he has based on, not only this letter but, all the other glimpses all of us get from watching trump's tweets, interviews, speeches etc. We all have our own opinions of trump, but his is more informed.

 

[bver_hunter]

They rendered prisoners to Syria for torture. And used Assad torturers to do the deed. The CIA did this. And Pelosi was briefed in it and approved it.

It's that simple. It's in the Afghanistan papers. Her attendance at the briefings that were specifically about "enhanced interegation". As a member of the Congressional oversight committee.

Was Pelosi the President to "approve" it. Show us some links that have her approving sending prisoners to be "tortured" by Assad's Syria. In this oversight committee were there no Republicans involved??

You have yet to condemn Trump for his pullout of troops resulting in the massacre of the Kurds by Turkey. These Kurds were the ones to take down ISIS and were holding those terrorists in their jails, until the raids by the Turkish army. For once condemn Trump and his Republicans in this respect. I know you will not do so!!

 

[Frankfooter]

I don't think it was a professional diagnosis that would be admissible in court. It could be easily argued that it is an informed opinion he has based on, not only this letter but, all the other glimpses all of us get from watching trump's tweets, interviews, speeches etc. We all have our own opinions of trump, but his is more informed.

No, its more like the kind of letter you could take to court to justify the court ordering a serious diagnosis.

 

[shack]

No, its more like the kind of letter you could take to court to justify the court ordering a serious diagnosis.

Fine, but the point remains that he was not giving an actual diagnosis himself and hence there is no breach of ethics as others claimed.

 

[Butler1000]

Was Pelosi the President to "approve" it. Show us some links that have her approving sending prisoners to be "tortured" by Assad's Syria. In this oversight committee were there no Republicans involved??

You have yet to condemn Trump for his pullout of troops resulting in the massacre of the Kurds by Turkey. These Kurds were the ones to take down ISIS and were holding those terrorists in their jails, until the raids by the Turkish army. For once condemn Trump and his Republicans in this respect. I know you will not do so!!

Her job is oversight of the President remember. The exact reason they are giving for impeachment. It's the job of the committee to be a check on power. Remember?

And I would say that rendering for torture, breaking US laws, breaking the Geneva Convention and commiting war crimes are cause to go public in her position as opposition oversight.

She didn't, she agreed with it.

Which in effect makes her in agreement with the policy of torture.

And yes any Republicans are also guilty.

Stop being a partisan tool. And finally realize both party leadership's are responsible for the Iraq war and the war crimes committed.

 

[shack]

Stop being a partisan tool.

Hahahaha.

 

[Valcazar]

The issue that it is 'rambling' depends entirely of who you believe. If you don't believe anything coming from Trump, then it is rambling in that it's meaningless.

I didn't say it was meaningless. I said it was rambling. It is badly written and kind of all over the place. The actual meaning is clear enough - he makes his points.

 

[Valcazar]

It's the Neo part that counts.

Oh, so you meant neocon and neoliberal? That's much clearer.
I know the argument that they are one whole, although I find it unpersuasive overall. (It works well at some levels and not so well at others.)

The two party leadership's are on the same page. Just look at the massive military budget increases without dissent for the last two decades. Then look at the massive Intelligence Services now in the USA. And the power they wield under the Patriot act.

Right, but those three things are specifically neocon and not neoliberal. You can argue that the neoliberals see no reason to object, but they aren't the ones pushing for those. And, of course, the paleocons want those as well, as do some of the fringier parties. That there is a large pro-military consensus in the US is a sign that there is a general consensus, but that is broader than neocon/neoliberal. There is a consensus on being racist in the country too, but that isn't specific to either of those ideologies.

Then look at the press which is fully on board now with both. Where they cheerlead the wars, engage in outright propogandist lies, and even have several former heads of agencies and operatives as pundits.

All true, yes, but that is about power. You could put fascists or communists in power and a lot of the press will do the same thing.

As to the Gilded Barons I'd say Bezos, Bloomberg, the Waltons qualify. Bloomberg joined the race not to actually be President but to bypass campaign spending laws on negative advertising and play spoiler if Sanders is winning. He can spend a billion without blinking now and genuinely affect the outcome of the Democratic race. And the General. If that doesn't scare you, then you really need to rethink things.

You meant "Gilded Barons" for "they". That's what I was asking. (The antecedent was unclear.) You should include the Kochs, Sheldon Adelson, etc there. I agree completely that the new gilded age is a nightmare.