Homeless/junkie solution?

[dognutz]

Some people here are so harsh... people don't just decide to be homeless or be addicted to crack. You don't know what happened in their lives for them to have gotten to where they are. They also can't just stop using and live a "normal" life without a lot of help.

There's a reason why so many homeless people turn to drugs... what else have they got? The amount you get from welfare (OW or ODSP) is not survivable in Toronto, at least not if you want a permanent roof over your head. There's no more upward mobility when you can't even shelter yourself, it's a huge barrier that prevents you from getting a stable job or relationship or much of anything else. Sooner or later anyone would start giving up and start doing hard drugs, and once you're hooked and lose hope there's little chance of going back.

I think of them as more like victims in our society. The real source of the problem is that we allow people to get to that state in the first place. Now I don't pretend to know how we can solve the issue, but demonizing these folk is not the solution.

That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eye. Many immigrants come here with nothing and a language barrier and thrive. Look at frank stronach. They can walk in any medical facility and get help if they choose do, 95% don't.

Most use guilt to get money from family members, especially mothers who can't say no to their kids. Remember the rehab show intervention, most went to rehab but ended up quitting.

This is the negative part of a civilized society.

 

[Adam_hadam]

Singapore has very regressive laws. They are not a model we should ever emulate. Caning, death penalty for a wide range of crimes etc are just inhumane and unnecessarily cruel. Infact their laws are a bit uncivilized.

You are not offering solutions to this issue. Me, I'd load them into a plane and fly them all to nunavat. Happy travels!

 

[Frankfooter]

That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eye. Many immigrants come here with nothing and a language barrier and thrive. Look at frank stronach. They can walk in any medical facility and get help if they choose do, 95% don't.

Most use guilt to get money from family members, especially mothers who can't say no to their kids. Remember the rehab show intervention, most went to rehab but ended up quitting.

This is the negative part of a civilized society.

In the states 37% of the population can't survive a $400 emergency.
That's not much of a buffer to homelessness.

 

[Not getting younger]

In the states 37% of the population can't survive a $400 emergency.
That's not much of a buffer to homelessness.

We are heading there too. Sometimes amazes me Just how out of touch with reality some are. And all it’s going to take is “life happens”.

Job loss
Serious illness ( I bet most here don’t have critical illness insurance) it’s Canada after all. Wrong!

Divorce for many ( check the odds)
Mental health……..

and so on..

Be that as it may.
Another difference between us and the US. No idea how this might change things over the next 10-20 years ( a generation). And stats also show us, going back 60 years. We always follow the US in almost all trends by a generation. Worded differently. Look at Canada today, look at the US between 2000-2005. And for what’s it’s worth the US warned us about street gangs back in the late 80s…when we really only had the mafia, HA to contend with. So want an idea what the odds say we will look like in about a generation? Look at the US today.

Our streets aren’t as survivable as theirs come December. As more and more and more and more, run into hard times…will the cold here make cities like TO better or worse.

Often wonder if it’s because most here, have lived so privileged and sheltered lives. Had parents that gave them everything. Not wanting for much, not having to worry about much, pretty safe. Etc etc. just no real appreciation.

that will change I’m thinking.
I mean shit, half the people here are bellyaching hard right now. About rent/housing in other threads.

 

[dirtyharry555]

California has spent billions to fight homelessness. The problem has gotten worse



Los AngelesCNN —
California has spent a stunning $17.5 billion trying to combat homelessness over just four years. But, in the same time frame, from 2018 to 2022, the state’s homeless population actually grew. Half of all Americans living outside on the streets, federal data shows, live in California

>>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/11/us/california-homeless-spending/index.html

Cali... the seat of progressive politics.

Los Angeles prosecutors agree with 50 Cent that eliminating bail is a disaster for the city

Rapper 50 Cent received support from an unlikely place — an association of prosecutors — after his recent Tweet about Los Angeles being “finished” because of its no-bail policy.

nypost.com

 

[Not getting younger]

Cali... the seat of progressive politics.

Los Angeles prosecutors agree with 50 Cent that eliminating bail is a disaster for the city

Rapper 50 Cent received support from an unlikely place — an association of prosecutors — after his recent Tweet about Los Angeles being “finished” because of its no-bail policy.

nypost.com

Has the country done much about the underlying issues???????

Nope.
Land of the free and all that.

 

[RZG]

That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eye. Many immigrants come here with nothing and a language barrier and thrive. Look at frank stronach. They can walk in any medical facility and get help if they choose do, 95% don't.

Most use guilt to get money from family members, especially mothers who can't say no to their kids. Remember the rehab show intervention, most went to rehab but ended up quitting.

This is the negative part of a civilized society.

Frank Stronach should be running this country, I recall hearing him say he could fix it in short order, boil it down and it is just a huge business. Living in Canada, for the most part, you always have a choice. So many of these dirtbags just make the wrong ones repeatedly.

 

[Frankfooter]

California has spent billions to fight homelessness. The problem has gotten worse



Los AngelesCNN —
California has spent a stunning $17.5 billion trying to combat homelessness over just four years. But, in the same time frame, from 2018 to 2022, the state’s homeless population actually grew. Half of all Americans living outside on the streets, federal data shows, live in California

>>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/11/us/california-homeless-spending/index.html

This is a great thread on the demographics of California homelessness.
Lots of detailed stats like 20% of homeless became homeless when something financial like their car broke down, they couldn't afford to fix it and they lost their job.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1679124169429241856

 

[Not getting younger]

This is a great thread on the demographics of California homelessness.
Lots of detailed stats like 20% of homeless became homeless when something financial like their car broke down, they couldn't afford to fix it and they lost their job.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1679124169429241856

Careful Frankfooter. Plenty of people on both sides struggle when data/science are used.

Edit
Will add. One very likely reason for that, other than socioeconomic. Calis streets are far more liveable come December than Minnesota’s.

 

[lomotil]

You sound like someone that’s fairly right of center. No problem with that. On some issues I am too.

Correct me if I’m wrong.
you also strike me as the type that would go ballistic if asked to pay more taxes…yes? Do you know why, in part, our justice system is in part a revolving door? No?

It’s because there is no bed space. The longer any of them stay. The longer a bed is occupied. the faster out. The faster a space is made available. The more you want to lock up, the more beds you will also need. It’s called turnover.

How much has Ontarios population grown in the past 20years? You think out penal system has kept pace? So the question is. You at the front of the line to pay?

Not sure, been a long time since I looked but think..then..it cost us $75,000/year/inmate. and that’s without building a bunch of new facilities to accomplish what you want…

During the pandemic, inmates were released in some cases so that there should be some vacancies still.
Bail reform is increasingly and glaringly required.
Are you suggesting that there is pressure on the courts for leniency on sentencing for reasons of saving tax payer money on incarceration costs and that it is cost effective to catch and release criminals and pay for their room and board through social services ?
Not all convicted criminals are on social services, in fact the majority are not.
I don’t think that the courts care about the taxpayers nor do the politicians for the most part.
The courts are more interested in ensuring that innocent individuals are not wrongfully convicted than they are if criminals escape justice which is a colossal part of the problems that we are facing.

 

[Not getting younger]

Not sure if that’s a chicken or egg “argument”.
why we have been soft on crime for a long time now. Even more-so, since JT won. They softened bail conditions, got rid of mandatory minimums..

Who knows…..society I guess. As much as we gripe otherwise. Policitians, whether con or Lib care first and foremost about getting our votes. Without them, they neither win the crown or keep it……..
I have no idea how many were released into the public for Covid reasons. Do you think those beds are empty?

2020 data on inmates in Ontario

Get 2020 data on inmate segregation, restrictive confinement and deaths in correctional facilities.

www.ontario.ca

Do also know the province ( us) are being sued a lot. For a handful of reasons, one being overcrowding. And we are losing them.
Spend 30 seconds on Google and you will find many examples.

Ontario Prisoner Lockdowns Class Action - Koskie Minsky LLP

kmlaw.ca

Ontario to pay $33M in proposed settlement for class actions over London jail conditions | Globalnews.ca

Under the proposed settlement, which still requires a judge's approval, the province will pay nearly $32.8 million to class members detained at the jail during a 12-year period.

globalnews.ca

 

[silentkisser]

Well, here are a few suggestions:

1 - Cost of living can come down so that you don't have to be a millionaire to even enter the housing market;
2 - Control inflation and recessions so that people can actually save money;
3 - End all of the ridiculous fees to do the simplest things - especially bank fees;
4 - Educate children about addiction, especially alcohol, drugs and gambling;
5 - Motivate and educate children honestly, so that they will be the best that they can be, instead of just addicted commodities for advertisers;
6 - End smoking (cigarettes and vapes)

There are likely a lot more, because society is just so loving and caring.....

I don't think have the unhoused or junkies die will actually do anything for housing affordability. And whenever the government tries to control the economy....bad things can happen. Like, today the Bank of Canada hiked interest rates to 5%, the highest in 22 years. Will that curb inflation? Sure. Will it prevent a recession? Doubtful.

Now, I 100% agree with the removal of banking fees and educating children about drugs, alcohol and gambling. But the people who end up becoming addicts usually have issues that they're trying to escape from in the bottle, needle or pipe.

It doesn't matter how much government money you throw at them a vast majority are happy being beggars, drunks, addicts and homeless.
Look at the mess they left in the downtown hotels and surrounding neighborhood they were put in during Covid.

Nobody has come up with a good solution and I doubt anybody will. But I don't think giving them free drugs, free needles and injection sights is going to help.

I understand this sentiment, but you miss a major point about the safe injection sites. First, it helps protect life. It also reduces the spread of diseases like HIV/AIDS. Both of those things are a burden on the healthcare system, so the old saying about an ounce of prevention and so forth. Now, what to do with the junkies? Rehab. Good, old fashioned rehab. We treat it as a disease, because it is. The other element though, is mental illness, which is harder to treat. The government cannot institutionalize people like the could 50 years ago. And if they are undiagnosed, or refuse to take their meds, there is little we can do...

 

[Frankfooter]

I don't think have the unhoused or junkies die will actually do anything for housing affordability. And whenever the government tries to control the economy....bad things can happen. Like, today the Bank of Canada hiked interest rates to 5%, the highest in 22 years. Will that curb inflation? Sure. Will it prevent a recession? Doubtful.

Now, I 100% agree with the removal of banking fees and educating children about drugs, alcohol and gambling. But the people who end up becoming addicts usually have issues that they're trying to escape from in the bottle, needle or pipe.



I understand this sentiment, but you miss a major point about the safe injection sites. First, it helps protect life. It also reduces the spread of diseases like HIV/AIDS. Both of those things are a burden on the healthcare system, so the old saying about an ounce of prevention and so forth. Now, what to do with the junkies? Rehab. Good, old fashioned rehab. We treat it as a disease, because it is. The other element though, is mental illness, which is harder to treat. The government cannot institutionalize people like the could 50 years ago. And if they are undiagnosed, or refuse to take their meds, there is little we can do...

Cory D's stats said only about 10-15% of the homeless in California were addicts though around 60% had mental health issues.

 

[bazokajoe]

I don't think have the unhoused or junkies die will actually do anything for housing affordability. And whenever the government tries to control the economy....bad things can happen. Like, today the Bank of Canada hiked interest rates to 5%, the highest in 22 years. Will that curb inflation? Sure. Will it prevent a recession? Doubtful.

Now, I 100% agree with the removal of banking fees and educating children about drugs, alcohol and gambling. But the people who end up becoming addicts usually have issues that they're trying to escape from in the bottle, needle or pipe.



I understand this sentiment, but you miss a major point about the safe injection sites. First, it helps protect life. It also reduces the spread of diseases like HIV/AIDS. Both of those things are a burden on the healthcare system, so the old saying about an ounce of prevention and so forth. Now, what to do with the junkies? Rehab. Good, old fashioned rehab. We treat it as a disease, because it is. The other element though, is mental illness, which is harder to treat. The government cannot institutionalize people like the could 50 years ago. And if they are undiagnosed, or refuse to take their meds, there is little we can do...

Addiction is a choice.

 

[jalimon]

Addiction is a choice.

Stick to stuff you know about. If you want to brag that you do not have addiction that you are perfect. Fine. But stick to what you know about.

 

[bazokajoe]

Stick to stuff you know about. If you want to brag that you do not have addiction that you are perfect. Fine. But stick to what you know about.

Nobody forced anybody to jab a needle in their arm, or snort that coke, etc.

 

[Not getting younger]

Cory D's stats said only about 10-15% of the homeless in California were addicts though around 60% had mental health issues.

So, examine some causes of some of the more common mental health afflictions.

Some are just dealt shitty cards at birth. Yay but for the grace of god, there go I…

Some are born in the wrong neighborhoods. Yay but….

Some, are the result of things that happen during life. The most obvious being depression. Others like PTSD.
Yay but…..

The govt cannot afford care facilities. Truish. All governments respond to what the public wants. If the public wants 8 lane highways out to Cobiurg and St Catherine’s. If the public wants A B or C…Consider Fords response to LTCs. The public started howling….after successive governments and the public not giving 2 shits about Seniors, LTCs, PSWs for 30 years..

Also know, that since Ontario closed a lot of facilities. Guess where they end up. The streets….

 

[jalimon]

Nobody forced anybody to jab a needle in their arm, or snort that coke, etc.

True. But the problem is much deeper then that.

They are probably 5 times more bankers, politicians, lawyers that snort coke then homeless people.

Anyhow such sentence that you wrote is perhaps comforting to you but it does not resolve any of the problem.

We need to provide them with an affordable and decent roof. A roof they could pay with a low wage salary. We need to provide them with free transport so they can commute to work.

All of this with tax payer's money because no private company want's to get involved, we get that that's fine.

A clean city will benefit everyone.

p.s. ho and I forgot first and foremost free healthcare to cure their addiction and free medication to help their mental illness. Curing an addiction can be done in 3 weeks (my brother cured a severe one it in 2!). That's much less then paying 70k/year for inmates in jail.. .

 

[SchlongConery]

Addiction is a choice.

By your reasoning, so is posting publicly about your own ignorance and simple, narrow, closed mind.

Look, I have had enough with the drug addicts and all that entails and those loathesome homeless who are fucking pigs and make a mess of anywhere they inhabit. I see it every day I am in Toronto. Along with the lazy fuckwits in the Works Department (?) and their managers and councillors absolute dereliction of their most basic duties resulting in Toronto becoming more and more filthy and littered. No wonder the homeless don't give a shit about throwing their shit in a garbage can. The fucking City has decided that NOT having garbage cans to throw trash in is a solution to waste disposal! As I said, fuckwits.

While I have no first hand experience with drug or alcohol addiction, I know addiction is a real thing. It affects even rich, successful, educated people from good families who have all the resources to help break the addiction.

This homeless and drug problem really troubles me. Not just that I think it is a blight on society and our city and neighbourhoods. I also have empathy for the human suffering of the homeless and addicted, those with mental health issues etc. And their families. So I have given a lot of thought to possible solutions or mitigation over many years. Despite being otherwise succesful idea man, this is one problem that I really have been unable to come up with even a remotely viable and sustainable solution for.

Ignoring it, deliberately is the only solution that I have been able to come up with to deal with my being bothered by it. Ignoring it is different than denying it.

 

[Darts]

I'll give you two examples of people who deal with life in a responsible manner. No woe is me story.

1) Last year I was on my bike and this other guy was also on his bike. We struck up a conversation. Turns out he is on some disability pension that pays him a bit north of $1,100 a month. $400 goes to pay for his room. That leaves over $700 for other stuff. Shortly after our conversation I noticed he got a part-time job as a crossing guard.

2) My electrician had a rough life growing up. He knew he would never get an electrical engineering degree from UofT. Instead he worked nights and studied/apprenticed to be an electrician during the day and now makes a good living as an electrican. He does a lot of work on movie sets.

Unlike the wokies/virtue signalers/progressives they don't blame governments and/or rich people, they simply deal with life the best they can. No woe is me.