High School Graduates

[SkyRider]

The Saturday Star published an article on a highly sensitive and controversial subject. Prior to this article I was under the impression that the TDSB (like TPS) did not keep race based statistics.

Anyhow, no surprise which ethnic group has the highest graduation rate and which ethnic group has the lowest graduation rate.

 

[punter]

Please surprise us.

 

[thecuriousgeorge]

Is the grad rate a percentage or absolute numbers...im guessing "whites" would win based on sheer numbers...but if it was a percentage i put my money on asians (south and oriental)

 

[thecuriousgeorge]

Could very well be the case...however the asians i have stayed close with have all finished and obtained some fairly prestigious jobs...with no parental input during uni

I agree with your last 2 comments

 

[Sophia Sinclair]

I wonder if Asian kids get pushed harder by parents.

This is true to some extent as culturally education if considered important. I also remember reading some time ago that they get pushed so hard sometimes that it can lead to suicide over bad grades.

I used to know some pretty nerdy asian guys... Turns out without parental pressure and over sight many of them crumbled in university due to distractions including but not limited to video games, going out to drink, or just wasting time.

They tell us that a big part of success in university is organizational/time management skills. Most kids have the smarts, but if they don't utilize their time well they won't get the grades..

The ones who did poorly weren't self motivated.

I remember when doing the lab component of my Natural Science course at YorkU, how the gent who ran the lab pointed out to me that due to being from a more communal culture, the Asian kids often studied together, pooling their resources and helping one another out in getting the answers. I simply went to him with my questions to get turned in the right direction.

I did note though anyone self motivated and with reasonable work ethic could succeed though irrespective of race.


Very True!

Oh wait, me bad, this is about high school and I'm talking university. Oh well, maybe the same principles apply,

 

[SkyRider]

Studying hard is one avenue to scholastic success, however Asian kids also score very high on IQ and SAT tests which really don't require that much study and is a measure of natural intelligence.

 

[BlueLaser]

The Saturday Star published an article on a highly sensitive and controversial subject. Prior to this article I was under the impression that the TDSB (like TPS) did not keep race based statistics.

Anyhow, no surprise which ethnic group has the highest graduation rate and which ethnic group has the lowest graduation rate.

The problem with stats like that is the only tell part of the picture. You need the totality of the statistics to come away with any type of meaningful impression. I think you'll find socio-economic indicators are much more polarizing than race. It just so happens that races tend to slide into specific socio-economic groups. It's one of the reasons affirmative action exists to the chagrin of those who like to taut equality as if treating everyone the same is somehow fair despite differences in culture and upbringing. If everyone started on an even footing, that would be ideal. But can we really say everyone's starting from the same place and therefore has the same opportunities?

If dad's an engineer and mom's a doctor, statistically you're going to do better in school than if dad's a garbage man and mom stays at home with their 7 kids.

 

[SkyRider]

If dad's an engineer and mom's a doctor, statistically you're going to do better in school than if dad's a garbage man and mom stays at home with their 7 kids.

The father of the woman who scored the top high school graduating marks in the GTA (a couple of years ago) drives a taxi.

 

[Serpent]

The father of the woman who scored the top high school graduating marks in the GTA (a couple of years ago) drives a taxi.

To this point, recently Amy Chua (ethnically Chinese) and her husband, also a professor at Yale (a Jewish guy) came out with a book that essentially put forth that some ethnic and social groups (Indians, Chinese, Koreans, Jews etc etc) are "superior" when it comes to achieving success. And no, whites as a race don't make the cut. It has been decried as racist and pop science but they stand behind it and one of the things they highlight off census data is that in case of some Asian communities, even kids of poor parents ace SATs and University grades.

Read the abstract for yourselves: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?_r=0

 

[BlueLaser]

The father of the woman who scored the top high school graduating marks in the GTA (a couple of years ago) drives a taxi.

Yes. Welcome to statistics. Where anomalies and outliers actually do exist and a sample size of 1 means absolutely nothing. You need a large enough sample size and a careful review of the mean, median, standard deviation, z-score and p-value to be able to extract any relevant meaning.

 

[Serpent]

Yes. Welcome to statistics. Where anomalies and outliers actually do exist and a sample size of 1 means absolutely nothing. You need a large enough sample size and a careful review of the mean, median, standard deviation, z-score and p-value to be able to extract any relevant meaning.

From my NYT link:

Today’s wealthy Mormon businessmen often started from humble origins. Although India and China send the most immigrants to the United States through employment-based channels, almost half of all Indian immigrants and over half of Chinese immigrants do not enter the country under those criteria. Many are poor and poorly educated. Comprehensive data published by the Russell Sage Foundation in 2013 showed that the children of Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese immigrants experienced exceptional upward mobility regardless of their parents’ socioeconomic or educational background.

Take New York City’s selective public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science, which are major Ivy League feeders. For the 2013 school year, Stuyvesant High School offered admission, based solely on a standardized entrance exam, to nine black students, 24 Hispanics, 177 whites and 620 Asians. Among the Asians of Chinese origin, many are the children of restaurant workers and other working-class immigrants.

 

[BlueLaser]

To this point, recently Amy Chua (ethnically Chinese) and her husband, also a professor at Yale (a Jewish guy) came out with a book that essentially put forth that some ethnic and social groups (Indians, Chinese, Koreans, Jews etc etc) are "superior" when it comes to achieving success. And no, whites as a race don't make the cut. It has been decried as racist and pop science but they stand behind it and one of the things they highlight off census data is that in case of some Asian communities, even kids of poor parents ace SATs and University grades.

Read the abstract for yourselves: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?_r=0

Eugenics didn't die out with the Nazis. It was around before them and it's persisted after their demise. I would propose that the cultural realities of their data isn't necessarily to be dismissed, but I don't think that the "race" had anything to do with it. If the parents are willing to work and sacrifice so their kids can have everything they need, and are willing to discipline their children fiercely to instill the ethic to succeed in school, then yes, kids are more likely to overcome their poor economic class and the lower education level of their parents. But if their parents are uneducated and just want to work their 9-5 job then come home and sit on the couch drinking beer, not really caring what their kids do, then the kids are going to have a much harder time.

You can refer to that as "culture", but it doesn't necessarily mean the ethnic culture, although that may play a part. The combination of parents education level, parents desire/ability to motivate, discipline and help their kids even at the cost of their own happiness, and the amount of money they have to spend on things like tutors or extra-curriculars that enrich the educational experience, all combine to form their socio-economic status. Their race/culture may/is likely to play some part in that as well. And the higher their socio-economic status, the more likely the kids are to succeed. Not to mention the connections the parents will have at getting them better jobs even if the child's performance is only mediocre.

There are black people in certain places that have a very strong belief in the value of education and sacrificing for their kids to help them succeed, and there are black people in other places that just see kids as a meal ticket from government social programs. Same race, different "cultures" that they live in, and likely vastly different socio-economic groups.

Their analysis of the data shows statistical relevance on the narrow scope of their subset, but sociology as with any "science" requires isolation of all other variables. And in the link you provided, there's a staunch acknowledgement of that flaw within the examination of "race" and "culture" which are often linked, but can vary wildly.

 

[BlueLaser]

From my NYT link:

Your link and his example with a sample size of 1 are completely unrelated, as are my replies to each of you individually. You can try to extrapolate my reply as a critique on the study you provided, but it wasn't. Nor does the study and article you linked put statistical value into his anecdote.

 

[SkyRider]

Like I said in my opening post, I was under the impression that the TDSB (like TPS) did not keep race based data because of the sensitivities and controversies involved. Hence, I was surprised by the race based stats published by the Toronto Star.

I recall reading about "affirmative action" in California university admissions because without it the number of students from one particular ethnic group would rise to "socially unacceptable" levels.

 

[SkyRider]

Your link and his example with a sample size of 1

The actual sample size based on graduating students over the past several years is far higher than one. The top students come predominately from one or two ethnic groups.

 

[BlueLaser]

The actual sample size based on graduating students over the past several years is far higher than one. The top students come predominately from one or two ethnic groups.

Go back and reread your post I was replying to when I mentioned the sample size of one. Better yet, I'll include it here for you, save you the work.

The father of the woman who scored the top high school graduating marks in the GTA (a couple of years ago) drives a taxi.

The woman. That's one person. That's a sample size of one. That was the post I was referring to when I spoke about a sample size of one.

 

[james t kirk]

I have a very good friend who teaches high school.

She tells me that the highest dropout rate in her school is actually Portuguese kids. Apparently Portuguese kids place little value in education and have the opinion that it is all a huge waste of time. They just can't wait to get out and get on with a forming crew.

 

[Serpent]

Your link and his example with a sample size of 1 are completely unrelated, as are my replies to each of you individually. You can try to extrapolate my reply as a critique on the study you provided, but it wasn't. Nor does the study and article you linked put statistical value into his anecdote.

I agree with your earlier reply - it is nurture versus nature that determines success. What Chua is saying is that nurture element is consistently seen in first generation immigration of jewish, chinese, indian, korean backgrounds more than others. And then by a second or third generation, it starts to fade away as they become more Americanized.

 

[Ms.FemmeFatale]

So it is not racist to say that Asians are smart? Is that the point here?

I am getting so lost on what stereotypes and generalizations are allowed to be used. What facts are allowed to be discussed, which have to be ignored and which is PC and which is racist.

Asians can be smart but blacks can't be criminals and Jews can be what now? Muslims are evil doers.... no wait, that is a religion not race. Blacks can be good runners but Asians can't be bad driver?????

Fuck it, I give up!

 

[groggy]

So it is not racist to say that Asians are smart? Is that the point here?

I am getting so lost on what stereotypes and generalizations are allowed to be used. What facts are allowed to be discussed, which have to be ignored and which is PC and which is racist.

Asians can be smart but blacks can't be criminals and Jews can be what now? Muslims are evil doers.... no wait, that is a religion not race. Blacks can be good runners but Asians can't be bad driver?????

Fuck it, I give up!

Cultural differences are acceptable for commenting on, but not racial ones.
Saying Portuguese kids more often drop out to work in construction is safe, since hardly anyone would try to claim that Portuguese are a race or that this is anything more then a cultural, nurture based preference.

Saying Asians are smarter implies that they are genetically different and a higher species/race. Saying that Asians have a culture where discipline and hard work are emphasized over self actuation is not.