Understood. I can see now where you got that number. That's really on the high side. Heat Pumps have gone through a technology boom and they have come done in price in the last 5 years. Couple with the Fed rebate makes them very attractive if you have gas, oil or propane powered furnaces. The other thing that really hasn't been talked about is that they are a more efficient AC unit in the summer months.
Heat Pumps for homes.
- Thread starter Adamxx
- Start date
Hybrid systems make more sense North of 40, that's liable to get better in future years, though...
I am in the same boat as Fang. Old coolant in a/c, a/c is now low on gas, so it's gotta go.
Now I have looked at the ductless mini splits, and am not intimidated to install them myself.
Youtube can give you all the background you need.
The concern I have with DIY here, is I am not a skilled hvac tech.
So if something goes south and the parts from China are not the parts the hvac can get you are pooched.
Plus I understand a lot of pros don't want to touch maybe dodgy DIY installs and not have success to fix it.
I have a two year old high eff natural gas furnace.
A year ago I swapped out my 20 year old natural B vent gas fired water heater, which I owned.
That let me close the b vent, which was a hole in the roof that bled conditioned air year round.
I put in a heat pump water heater, and drain water heat recovery unit which I also own, to replace the natural gas heater
It sits in the laundry room in the basement.
It sucks heat out of air and latent heat of condensing water vapor.
And warms the water in its tank, in a typically 300% more efficient manner than a straight electric water heater could.
The drain water until scavenges heat from showering to warm the cold water coming in from street main going to the water heater.
So the water heater does not need to work so hard to raise hot water to usable temperature.
This lets us not use the old basement dehumidifier, and to rarely use the clothes dryer.
We just hang the clothes out of the washer onto drying racks and the water heater sucks the moisture out of the air around them so they are dry overnight year round
Clothes last longer not heated in dryer this way, and again, no conditioned air ejected from house by the dryer.
The HPWH the way we use our hot water ends up in it being a 1 ton a/c.
But the reduced b vent and less dryer use and we do not use more natural gas in the winter, and use the a/c cooling less in the summer.
I have my house modelled heat loss/heat gain in excel.
I need 24kBTU/h in hottest summer, and need 39kBTU/h in chilliest Toronto area winter.
The next step for me in envelope heat loss/gain is to get a fireplace insert for my present open hearth wood fire so as to cut the air infiltration rate.
I have a lock top damper, but still the hearth is my biggest air exchange hole.
Next step for my heat pump design needs will be to figure if I go one speed heat pump or two speed heat pump.
I know the fully variable speed invertor units have highest efficiency, but also have more electronics to go wrong and be expensive to fix.
If I go 24kBTU/h unit, single speed, then it starts and stops often on all but the hottest days.
But 2 ton (12kBTU/h is a ton) runs out of heating for my model at -2C, and a fair bit of our winter is colder than -2.
More ideal would be 3 ton 2 speed. Low speed cooling is about 18kBTU/h, so more constant run for a lot of the day in the summer.
And in winter on high speed it will heat to -8C, and that covers a lot more days in the Toronto winter.
Long enough post. Next one talks about when to run gas vs heat pump in the winter.
Now I have looked at the ductless mini splits, and am not intimidated to install them myself.
Youtube can give you all the background you need.
The concern I have with DIY here, is I am not a skilled hvac tech.
So if something goes south and the parts from China are not the parts the hvac can get you are pooched.
Plus I understand a lot of pros don't want to touch maybe dodgy DIY installs and not have success to fix it.
I have a two year old high eff natural gas furnace.
A year ago I swapped out my 20 year old natural B vent gas fired water heater, which I owned.
That let me close the b vent, which was a hole in the roof that bled conditioned air year round.
I put in a heat pump water heater, and drain water heat recovery unit which I also own, to replace the natural gas heater
It sits in the laundry room in the basement.
It sucks heat out of air and latent heat of condensing water vapor.
And warms the water in its tank, in a typically 300% more efficient manner than a straight electric water heater could.
The drain water until scavenges heat from showering to warm the cold water coming in from street main going to the water heater.
So the water heater does not need to work so hard to raise hot water to usable temperature.
This lets us not use the old basement dehumidifier, and to rarely use the clothes dryer.
We just hang the clothes out of the washer onto drying racks and the water heater sucks the moisture out of the air around them so they are dry overnight year round
Clothes last longer not heated in dryer this way, and again, no conditioned air ejected from house by the dryer.
The HPWH the way we use our hot water ends up in it being a 1 ton a/c.
But the reduced b vent and less dryer use and we do not use more natural gas in the winter, and use the a/c cooling less in the summer.
I have my house modelled heat loss/heat gain in excel.
I need 24kBTU/h in hottest summer, and need 39kBTU/h in chilliest Toronto area winter.
The next step for me in envelope heat loss/gain is to get a fireplace insert for my present open hearth wood fire so as to cut the air infiltration rate.
I have a lock top damper, but still the hearth is my biggest air exchange hole.
Next step for my heat pump design needs will be to figure if I go one speed heat pump or two speed heat pump.
I know the fully variable speed invertor units have highest efficiency, but also have more electronics to go wrong and be expensive to fix.
If I go 24kBTU/h unit, single speed, then it starts and stops often on all but the hottest days.
But 2 ton (12kBTU/h is a ton) runs out of heating for my model at -2C, and a fair bit of our winter is colder than -2.
More ideal would be 3 ton 2 speed. Low speed cooling is about 18kBTU/h, so more constant run for a lot of the day in the summer.
And in winter on high speed it will heat to -8C, and that covers a lot more days in the Toronto winter.
Long enough post. Next one talks about when to run gas vs heat pump in the winter.
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Like your integrated approach, did not consider some of the heap pump uses you integrated.
Wondering of I can pm you to further discuss when I have narrowed my options.
Thanks for your intel.
So Ontario now has what is call Ultra Low rate tariff for electricity.
You pay more in a 4pm to 9pm prime time kWh, to get really cheap overnight power.
I have plug in hybrid car so going that way saves $$. Just tell it to charge 11pm-7am, and it is a third of the old overnight cost.
So next step is to tell our hot tub is to run hotter 11p-7a, a bit warmer 7a-4p, and not to run when we use it in the 4p-9p expensive electricity time.
So with this as a backdrop I step into when does it make sense to run the heat pump vs when to run the gas furnace?
Of course for below like -8C for the heat pump I am planning, you run the gas furnace because the heat pump cant keep up with heat demand.
So, I am an engineer tech nerd, and figured the per hour cubic meter gas needs of the furnace to deliver heat.
And the electrical input cost to the heat pump to deliver same amount of heat.
Figure the per cum of gas cost, then time of use electrical rates make it obvious.
But it doesn't.
Because gas has a part of the monthly bill just to connect to the gas network.
And as you use less gas the fixed fee more quickly raises the effective cost of a cum of gas.
If I use heat pump when electric really cheap overnight, and on mostly cheap day price on weekends then about 40% of prior furnace gas consumption is gone.
So rate of $/cum rises.
So then it is cheaper to run heat pump overnight, weekends and mid price 7am-4pm and 9pm-11pm.
So then use less furnace gas, price of $/cum of gas rises, and then it is cheaper to run heat pump until you low temp need the furnace as a back up heat source.
You pay more in a 4pm to 9pm prime time kWh, to get really cheap overnight power.
I have plug in hybrid car so going that way saves $$. Just tell it to charge 11pm-7am, and it is a third of the old overnight cost.
So next step is to tell our hot tub is to run hotter 11p-7a, a bit warmer 7a-4p, and not to run when we use it in the 4p-9p expensive electricity time.
So with this as a backdrop I step into when does it make sense to run the heat pump vs when to run the gas furnace?
Of course for below like -8C for the heat pump I am planning, you run the gas furnace because the heat pump cant keep up with heat demand.
So, I am an engineer tech nerd, and figured the per hour cubic meter gas needs of the furnace to deliver heat.
And the electrical input cost to the heat pump to deliver same amount of heat.
Figure the per cum of gas cost, then time of use electrical rates make it obvious.
But it doesn't.
Because gas has a part of the monthly bill just to connect to the gas network.
And as you use less gas the fixed fee more quickly raises the effective cost of a cum of gas.
If I use heat pump when electric really cheap overnight, and on mostly cheap day price on weekends then about 40% of prior furnace gas consumption is gone.
So rate of $/cum rises.
So then it is cheaper to run heat pump overnight, weekends and mid price 7am-4pm and 9pm-11pm.
So then use less furnace gas, price of $/cum of gas rises, and then it is cheaper to run heat pump until you low temp need the furnace as a back up heat source.
PM welcome, but might put more of my nerd speak out here on this thread to demystify for all the over all approaches I consider.
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Heat pumps are pretty energy hungry. Solar and an invertor is not going to cut it unless you have acreage and a ground mount set up.
You will be miles ahead having a small gasoline (or maybe even natural gas convertor kit) invertor generator to power a natural gas furnace among limited other electrical loads) as a backup power and heat source.
No issues with you posting the details in this thread, as it would be beneficial to many.
Two of my thesis were about solar energy and inverters many many moons ago, when the technologies were relatively new, so I look forward to your postings.
Although, must admit , was surprised on the statement that heat pumps are energy thirsty, especially if is in the context of maintenance costs, especially for a small home.
Actually an inverter is in my plan, with the dual generator I already have as backup.
There are a lot of variables.
I live in rural Ontario. When I bought this place the house ran on forced air electric. Because that’s what the government recommended back in the day. That was before the price of Hydro sky rocketed. It also has a chimney for a wood stove that was located in the basement. Previous owners at some point took it out, to go electric per govt advice.
I forget all numbers, but I crunched them. At the time Propane despite the price fluctuations was the way to go. So I converted to forced air propane plus pump.
In the area I live there are strong westerly winds, all year with no wind breaks. Basically farm fields all around. I get plenty of days colder than -25. In fact, I have once, had to thaw out the pipes that deliver water located behind the west facing wall to the 2nd floor ensuite.
Of all homeowners on the street/road. No one else I know has put a heat pump in. They use wood stoves for supplemental
My typical propane fill ( avg about every 5 weeks) depending on temps. Averages around $750-$800 Jan through March. I just got a top up the other day. So October temps. Pretty mild in Oct. however I also use a propane stove which likely accounts for most use age summer to early/Mid October. Pic below.
Does the heat pump make a noticeable difference. Not that I can tell. Would it be worth 10k (approximate cost after rebates) for a cold climate and house without and adding one? Even if it saved $1,000 per year, which I highly doubt. It would take 10 years to break even. With annual heating cost of approx $4300-$4500. By comparison I could install a wood stove for…..
If it saved $2,000/year, it would still take 5 years to pay for itself. Basically a “scam” for lack of better words. Not unlike when the province tried to get people to use electric heat.
I live in rural Ontario. When I bought this place the house ran on forced air electric. Because that’s what the government recommended back in the day. That was before the price of Hydro sky rocketed. It also has a chimney for a wood stove that was located in the basement. Previous owners at some point took it out, to go electric per govt advice.
I forget all numbers, but I crunched them. At the time Propane despite the price fluctuations was the way to go. So I converted to forced air propane plus pump.
In the area I live there are strong westerly winds, all year with no wind breaks. Basically farm fields all around. I get plenty of days colder than -25. In fact, I have once, had to thaw out the pipes that deliver water located behind the west facing wall to the 2nd floor ensuite.
Of all homeowners on the street/road. No one else I know has put a heat pump in. They use wood stoves for supplemental
My typical propane fill ( avg about every 5 weeks) depending on temps. Averages around $750-$800 Jan through March. I just got a top up the other day. So October temps. Pretty mild in Oct. however I also use a propane stove which likely accounts for most use age summer to early/Mid October. Pic below.
Does the heat pump make a noticeable difference. Not that I can tell. Would it be worth 10k (approximate cost after rebates) for a cold climate and house without and adding one? Even if it saved $1,000 per year, which I highly doubt. It would take 10 years to break even. With annual heating cost of approx $4300-$4500. By comparison I could install a wood stove for…..
If it saved $2,000/year, it would still take 5 years to pay for itself. Basically a “scam” for lack of better words. Not unlike when the province tried to get people to use electric heat.
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Interesting exchanges with some numbers in this heat pump thread forum
forums.redflagdeals.com
Heat pumps - RedFlagDeals.com Forums
Hi My furnace is getting long in the tooth and am thinking of replacing before it dies I'm looking at options and wondering if any one has installed
forums.redflagdeals.com
I understand your issues about past all electric, etc.
Most of what I suspect you have is a heat lossy home.
I will outline what I have done on my path of home ownership to cut out heat losses.
Bought the place in Feb 2003. Built in 1967 2 storey, 900 sq ft per floor. Brick veneer clad first floor, aluminum siding clad second storey. Asphalt shed style roof
No snow for 18" around the foundation on the otherwise snow covered ground when I bought
Less snow on the north facing side of the street compared to another house that had the same coloured shingles as me.
So I knew I had a poor insulation issue.
So first few months I built 2x3 stud walls around outside of unfinished dry and parged concrete block basement.
Placed the first insulation in end headers and rim joist slots.
Studs were set a few inches from the concrete so 6" roxul for top of wall, 4" for bottom. Vapour barrier. Roughed in electrical as I went.
Next fall did drywall and some interior walls.
Attic got 6" of batts over the original wimpy paper faced 4" of fibreglass.
Bath ceiling exhaust fans were vented out end walls with terminal ball trap and not just dumped into the attic like I found them.
Windows were two pane but nor sealed between them. I did a lot of removable caulking crack sealing on them to stop the whistling.
Basement windows were crappy single pane and fit really poorly. I made plastic pillows stuffed with fibreglass bats cut to suit and filled the basement windows in over the winter with them.
Dryer exhaust got an insulating sleeve place over it and a foam ball exhaust trap too.
Foam gasket sealed all receptacles and light switches in exterior walls.
Pulled up and reinstalled baseboards and did low expanding latex foam for where drywall did not meet the flooring behind the baseboards.
And where strip wood flooring did not extend to room edge behind bottom of baseboard.
Room by room as I repainted over a few years.
Put new weatherstrip around edges of exterior doors and new transom seals, as the rubber in the old ones was shot.
Lived with that until we paid off the mortgage.
Summer after that I hired in for thermopane window replacement.
I replaced the wood exterior doors with foam core steel clad doors the fit their new frames a lot better.
I replaced the basement windows with thermopane and made sure they fit and were sealed in well.
After 40 years there was almost no paint on the siding.
I had foil faced 2" rigid foam board placed while the siding was off and all joints tuck taped. Then vinyl was placed over that.
I had the fire place fitted with a lock top damper to cut up the flue losses, and have a rigid foam plug the we fit into the fireplace opening when it is idle.
Each step seals up the house a bit more so it uses less energy to heat and cool it.
I know there some issues with the home. Hence doing this and that
. Most people in the area have as main heat propane, then either electric or wood stoves. A couple still run electric. The problem or main one is the west winds.Great spring summer and early fall. Brutal on cold winter days.Re the pipes, hard to explain. Suffice to say that one day shocked the hell of me.At the end of the day though, assuming “10k” net out of pocket. How many years till it pays for itself in any home? And there are all kind of question about actually efficiency below -25.
How long does it take to recoup with savings? Let's see for fun that you see if 1K per year thats 15 years before you brek even.
I would only ever recommend a heat pump if the customer was already considering replacing their furnace or air conditioner. A new furnace install will be 4-5 thousand so a heat pump would be a good option to consider.
I think someone's been overcharged for furnace. When I had my repaired I asked how much a new 1 would cost and I was quoted 2K max That was like 6 years ago
The price went up during COVID because of supply chain issues.
I'm in the same boat as my extremely old a/c is still working but I cringe at the thought of not planning ahead and replacing it before it dies. Replaced the furnace 4 years ago for under 4k.
A new a/c could run 4-5k.
After discussing with my HVAC guy he recommended replacing it with a heat pump. I've done some research but still have a difficult time understanding and believing a heat pump can replace an a/c and cool the house. I am aware that the heat pump is essentially has the same condenser out side as an a/c.
With the energy grant of around 6k I would be out very little money(minus the $600 evaluation fee)
A new a/c could run 4-5k.
After discussing with my HVAC guy he recommended replacing it with a heat pump. I've done some research but still have a difficult time understanding and believing a heat pump can replace an a/c and cool the house. I am aware that the heat pump is essentially has the same condenser out side as an a/c.
With the energy grant of around 6k I would be out very little money(minus the $600 evaluation fee)
Did anyone experience issues when using a gas generator to power their furnace.
As there have been some posts online regarding concerns especially with high efficiency ones due to the amputation of sensitive technology inside it or issues whit computers.
Don't think there should be issues as most equipment with sensitive Digital technology has a built-in dc converter inside .
As there have been some posts online regarding concerns especially with high efficiency ones due to the amputation of sensitive technology inside it or issues whit computers.
Don't think there should be issues as most equipment with sensitive Digital technology has a built-in dc converter inside .
I just replaced my furnace for an efficient one at just over $6000 plus taxes. As my Air Conditioner was fairly new, I decided to hold off from the Heat Pump. Expect the costs of heat pump to drop in the oncoming years and when the Air Conditioner packs it in. That is when I will replace it with the Heat Pump.
