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Healthcare is rationed in America

fuji

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themexi said:
People who can AFFORD to go to the Mayo, get to go to the Mayo.....

Why should someone who hasn't done as much with their life get the same as someone who has accomplished more???
So you are agreeing with me. We can now say that the following is a fact:

The American system rations based on wealth, and as a result delivers worse health outcomes on average than the Canadian system does, which rations based on need.

Q.E.D.?
 

canada-man

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themexi said:
People who can AFFORD to go to the Mayo, get to go to the Mayo.....

Why should someone who hasn't done as much with their life get the same as someone who has accomplished more???

health care is a life and death issue h
 

papasmerf

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themexi said:
Ok.... again you miss a simple point...........

Here it is again.... stated simply.....


Ready????


I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD CHANGE A THING ABOUT OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM EXCEPT TH WE SHOULD HAVE TH FREEDOM TO PAY FOR BETTER SERVICE IF WE WISH TO DO SO......

The poor will get the SAME level of care they're used to....

But other will have the freedom to pay for better...

Nope

You missed my point. If you support a government health system you should not be able to opt away from it. If it is good enough for them it should be good enough for you. Otherwise you are say let the poor have crumbs because I can afford the fresh loaf everyday.
 

themexi

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papasmerf said:
Nope

You missed my point.
I got your point.... I simply disagree


papasmerf said:
If you support a government health system you should not be able to opt away from it. If it is good enough for them it should be good enough for you.

Not really.... the government healthcare is a basic safety net.... however that DOESN'T mean that those that can afford better have to be trapped in the system along with the have nots....

If it's good enough for them it would be good enough for me if that's all I could afford....

The government supplies HOUSING too..... To be consistent you'd have to also agree that even if we can afford Beautiful homes we should all live in the projects???????




papasmerf said:
Otherwise you are say let the poor have crumbs because I can afford the fresh loaf everyday.
Pretty much EXACTLY what I'm saying really... When I throw a dog a bone I don't ask him how it tastes.....
 

papasmerf

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themexi said:
I got your point.... I simply disagree





Not really.... the government healthcare is a basic safety net.... however that DOESN'T mean that those that can afford better have to be trapped in the system along with the have nots....

If it's good enough for them it would be good enough for me if that's all I could afford....

The government supplies HOUSING too..... To be consistent you'd have to also agree that even if we can afford Beautiful homes we should all live in the projects???????






Pretty much EXACTLY what I'm saying really... When I throw a dog a bone I don't ask him how it tastes.....
Socialism defined

If you support socialism you need to get behind it fully. Do you feel you deserve more just because you worked for it?


So do I. Check out MEDICAD and tell me we do not have a system in place for the poor.
 

themexi

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papasmerf said:
Socialism defined

If you support socialism you need to get behind it fully. Do you feel you deserve more just because you worked for it?


So do I. Check out MEDICAD and tell me we do not have a system in place for the poor.

I'm a Canadian talking about the Canadian system..... I don't have a problem with the American healthcare system.....

I do disagree that one has to get behind socialism fully though..... I can see no logical reason why we can't have a system where the poor get basic service paid for AND those that can afford more get more.... Until someone presents an argument that has more to it than You can't do that/you have to do that.... I will continue to do so...


Personally what I like even more than the American system was Victorian England..... Poorhouses, Workhouses & hanging for stealing bread... If we had kept up with that until now with all the improvements technology has to offer I dare say that while we would still have some poor people.... they would all be of better quality...
 

onthebottom

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fuji said:
Can your mother go to the Mayo clinic just as easily?
Sure, but unlike danmand she won't have to pay for it out of pocket.

OTB
 

wet_suit_one

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Clearly the Americans have decided. Let the poor folks and the rich guys who gambled on health insurance get fucked and die.

My bud's a doc in the States. He was telling me how a dude with over 500K in the bank (for retirement) lost it all (including his buisness and everything else) when he was diagnosed with cancer. Dude thought he was all healthy and shit, so when he lost his job and started up his own business he decided to skip health care insurance.

Within 6 months, diagnosed with cancer. Within a year after paying out of pocket the astronomical costs of treatment applied for medicade and my buddy had to lie on the form so he would get coverage. So a guy who otherwise probably would have had a decent life, but for this calamity, has been completely fucking wiped out and will be in penury for his retirement (he was 55 when he was diagnosed, so if he beats the cancer, he'll be on the government teat for his retirement).

Perfect fucking system if you ask me. Isn't it obvious? :rolleyes:
 

onthebottom

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fuji said:
So you are agreeing with me. We can now say that the following is a fact:

The American system rations based on wealth, and as a result delivers worse health outcomes on average than the Canadian system does, which rations based on need.

Q.E.D.?
I think the heath outcomes have nothing to do with the system and that care is not rationed based on wealth.

OTB
 

WoodPeckr

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onthebottom said:
I think the heath outcomes have nothing to do with the system and that care is not rationed based on wealth.

OTB
Really!?!?!?
Tell that to the ~50 million with no health insurance!.....:rolleyes:
 

kupall

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wet_suit_one said:
Clearly the Americans have decided. Let the poor folks and the rich guys who gambled on health insurance get fucked and die.

My bud's a doc in the States. He was telling me how a dude with over 500K in the bank (for retirement) lost it all (including his buisness and everything else) when he was diagnosed with cancer. Dude thought he was all healthy and shit, so when he lost his job and started up his own business he decided to skip health care insurance.

Within 6 months, diagnosed with cancer. Within a year after paying out of pocket the astronomical costs of treatment applied for medicade and my buddy had to lie on the form so he would get coverage. So a guy who otherwise probably would have had a decent life, but for this calamity, has been completely fucking wiped out and will be in penury for his retirement (he was 55 when he was diagnosed, so if he beats the cancer, he'll be on the government teat for his retirement).

Perfect fucking system if you ask me. Isn't it obvious?

his biggest mistake was he had 500k sitting in the bank, he could've afforded good health insurance which would have covered some of his costs and he wouldn't have found himself in that financial position

so i guess the solution you are saying is we should all pay for the healthcare of people who really didn't bother to invest in their health to begin with? even when they had the means?:rolleyes:

different if you are poor to begin with, you can't afford it so i guess its an excuse, but when you have 500k as you mentioned.... thats something else
 

onthebottom

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kupall said:
his biggest mistake was he had 500k sitting in the bank, he could've afforded good health insurance which would have covered some of his costs and he wouldn't have found himself in that financial position

so i guess the solution you are saying is we should all pay for the healthcare of people who really didn't bother to invest in their health to begin with? even when they had the means?:rolleyes:

different if you are poor to begin with, you can't afford it so i guess its an excuse, but when you have 500k as you mentioned.... thats something else
It should also be noted that by law he was offered cobra coverage, where for 3 years he would be covered by the same insurance he was under during his employment for a charge every month. My ex-wife is currently on COBRA coverage where she pays about $500 a month and gets the same coverage I get, she can stay on it for 3 years.

OTB
 

WoodPeckr

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onthebottom said:
My ex-wife is currently on COBRA coverage where she pays about $500 a month and gets the same coverage I get, she can stay on it for 3 years.

OTB
WOW!
Only in America!
Guess that's something to brag about!
It don't get any better than that, eh!....:rolleyes:
 

fuji

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kupall said:
his biggest mistake was he had 500k sitting in the bank, he could've afforded good health insurance which would have covered some of his costs and he wouldn't have found himself in that financial position
A lot of people don't make good decisions when it comes to things like this. Similarly, it's why we have forced savings programmes for retirement, like CPP: A lot of people would otherwise skip saving and wind up desperately poor in retirement.

One of the benefits of having healthcare paid from general tax revenues is that no-one really should opt not to pay it. When a life is destroyed like that it frequently impacts more than just the individual--there are kids who no longer have money for school, a home to live in, etc.

so i guess the solution you are saying is we should all pay for the healthcare of people who really didn't bother to invest in their health to begin with? even when they had the means?:rolleyes:
Had it been paid from tax revenue I guarantee you this guy with $500k would have paid his fair share in taxes.
 

onthebottom

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fuji said:
A lot of people don't make good decisions when it comes to things like this. Similarly, it's why we have forced savings programmes for retirement, like CPP: A lot of people would otherwise skip saving and wind up desperately poor in retirement.

One of the benefits of having healthcare paid from general tax revenues is that no-one really should opt not to pay it. When a life is destroyed like that it frequently impacts more than just the individual--there are kids who no longer have money for school, a home to live in, etc.



Had it been paid from tax revenue I guarantee you this guy with $500k would have paid his fair share in taxes.
Wait, I thought you didn't like anecdotes.

OTB
 

papasmerf

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WoodPeckr said:
WOW!
Only in America!
Guess that's something to brag about!
It don't get any better than that, eh!....:rolleyes:

And then it is up to her to find coverage
 

solitaria

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The real problem is that there are not enough doctors and they get paid too much.

Some people here think too much in terms of the bottom line. Not everything should be run from the perspective of finances with health care being a perfect example. It is bad for society if the mission statement of hospitals become in effect to make the most amount of money possible. It is better for society if their goals are to save people and to help them live better quality lives.

We need to graduate more doctors (both Canada and US). To do that we need to lower averages and increase enrollment. Engineers are smarter than doctors on the whole yet they don't have the same artificially high standards as doctors do when it comes to graduating students. (Doctors don't have to prove they are mathematically literate like engineers do which is a huge function of intelligence especially when it comes to logic and reasoning). It's a money making scam that the academic standards for doctors are so high. If you take two students, one with a 90% average and one with a 99% average, you can not predict which one will be a better doctor, because of marginal returns on intelligence at that level and the effect of other variables like a passion for helping people rather than a passion for gouging people in need and to make the most god damn money as is humanly possible. There are so many bad doctors that it shows that huge money as an incentive to only the best students (and the guys that make the top percentile in their youth aren't necessarily the smartest people in society just the most focussed at a young age) isn't the way to go.

Another problem, for us Canadians, is proximity to the US. We, in effect, have a two-tier health care system. I would love to see just a one-tier system so that the rich would have to force a huge change in the health care system or suffer the consequences just like everyone else. If the rich get what they want, even if it is costly, their attitude is always to fuck the poor. The poor are poor for a reason, and will always be fucked over by the minority of rich people when it doesn't have to be so.
 

Mrbig1949

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The only thing wrong with the Canadian system is that it needs to cover dental and drugs free covered by a tax increase. Hall corridor medicine is simply an underfunding issue.
 

chiller_boy

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papasmerf said:
I will happily get behind the government's plan when and if Obama, his family, congress, the senate, every government employee, the supreme and district courts, all lawyers and every person who draws a paycheck from taxpayers money go on it too.

Anything less says screw you America.
Aren't the groups you cite already on government run health care?
 
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