Healthcare is rationed in America

[chiller_boy]

It's sad that everything you said was, in fact, true.....


A lot of the cost of healthcare is the immense insureance premiums that doctors & hospitals have to pay on account of the US Court system awarding astronomical amounts for malpractice suits.....


?

Have you read the recent New Yorker article on why the health care in the US is so expensive. It has been widely quoted and tok the step of finding the jurisdiction in the US that had the highest cost of health care. An area of Texas, surprisingly enough. It turns out Texas has(some would say) draconian laws against filing malpractice claims and the add-on costs are neglible in this jurisdiction. yet it is the most expensive in the US. The New yorker article concluded that the motivating factor in the high cost of health care was the greed and sense of entitlement of the doctors.

The doctors owned hospitals, and everybody got every test you can think of. And outcomes were no better than anywhere else.\

Although it is arguable, it seems to be accepted that malpractice adds 1 to 2 percent ot hte overall cost of health care.

A counter argument to this is the notion that the spectre of malpractive has forced doctors into riskier and unecessary (and expensive) procedures as a CYA technqiue. The most famous wxample of this is cesarian sections which are riskier than normal births but represent the view that the doctor doid "all he could" if something goes wrong.

This latter is hard to quantify and to distinguish from doctors simply over serving their patients for the added money.

 

[chiller_boy]

A good article by Professor Camille Paglia (an ardent Democrat, I might add) that really goes to the heart of the issue.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/08/12/town_halls/

Paglia is a very bright woman who recently gave some interesting lectures at the U of T. I believe her analysis is wrong except with regard to the fact that the health care plan has not been fleshed out, and as aresult everybody can say whatever they want both for and against it.

I wonder what would happen if Obama said we would have medicare for all with, say, 10 percent, LESS payments to doctors, hospitals and required preventative medicne for all. No longer a moving target and a clear cut single payer system. Would have Us doctors moving to CANADA? lol

btw Did you catch Paglia's interesting take on judeo christion religion?. She lamemts the fact that religion is being shunted aside for various reasons and being ridiculed(ie Dawkins and Hitchens and the others) as nonsensical. Now she is an atheist, but she thinks that judeo christian ethos have been at the heart of western Art, music, literature etc and that we are losing these inspirations that have produced so much.

She may be right but its time to grow up.

 

[fuji]

Wait, I thought you didn't like anecdotes.

OTB

That's true. I can show you statistics on how pathetically bad people are at saving for retirement if you doubt it.

This is an assumption because as a Canadian we don't have this problem now, but I would presume that a fair chunk of Americans without healthcare COULD HAVE afforded it but opt not to because of the cost--a bad decision.

If you doubt that I'll go dig up some statistics, I bet they exist.

 

[fuji]

If everyone could go to the Mayo Clinic it would cease to exist and would just be another hospital. If we shift to a single payer system a la Canada it will become a system of mediocrity.

Well that would be an improvement. The average American currently receives inferior care. Only the wealthy get to go to the Mayo clinic and similar. The rest of the American system is inferior, not mediocre.

Actually what will happen is people will go to India and China, maybe Cuba which would fill the void by offering state of the art medical care the USA formerly did at reasonable prices and be free of the constant lawsuits that are all too common.

Only the wealthy would do that. The average person would see an improvement in their care.

 

[onthebottom]

Well that would be an improvement. The average American currently receives inferior care. Only the wealthy get to go to the Mayo clinic and similar. The rest of the American system is inferior, not mediocre.

That's simply not true. Inferior how?

Only the wealthy would do that. The average person would see an improvement in their care.

I think you are seeing a lot of concern from the average person.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

That's true. I can show you statistics on how pathetically bad people are at saving for retirement if you doubt it.

I don't doubt it, I just find facts a bit more compelling than anecdotes... and it was a bit of an opportunity to feed you a bit of your own medicine - which I couldn't resist.

This is an assumption because as a Canadian we don't have this problem now, but I would presume that a fair chunk of Americans without healthcare COULD HAVE afforded it but opt not to because of the cost--a bad decision.

If you doubt that I'll go dig up some statistics, I bet they exist.

Americans make all sorts of bad decisions, smoking would be one.

OTB

 

[WoodPeckr]

FACT REMAINS the USA at present RATIONS health care by wealth!

You pay or die, or join the ~50 million and growing with NO insurance!

This IS A FORM OF RATIONING!

 

[blackrock13]

The only thing wrong with the Canadian system is that it needs to cover dental and drugs free covered by a tax increase. Hall corridor medicine is simply an underfunding issue.

Geesh!!! This has got to stop. i'm agreeing with you agin.

I do agree, but it's more a matter of spending well,not spending more. As most politicians do it's an easier habit to spend on what's easier or faster, for votes of course, and not what's better.

 

[onthebottom]

FACT REMAINS the USA at present RATIONS health care by wealth!

You pay or die, or join the ~50 million and growing with NO insurance!

This IS A FORM OF RATIONING!

Not true, the poor have full coverage.

OTB

 

[blackrock13]

That's simply not true. Inferior how?

OTB

OTB;

It's simple. In general, citizens of the USA spend more than anyone on health, 40/60% more, depending on how you calculate it, and live shorter lives than 30/35/45, other countries. The different numbers come from how various people do the calculations. In other words, they're paying more, a lot more for less. That's inferior.

By the way, Canada ranked 14/10/7th. Not bad for a system that doesn't work.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Not true, the poor have full coverage.

OTB

Yeah right!!!!!
That's why the 'infant mortality rates of the poor in the USA' rivals rates in third world countries!....

Some full coverage, eh?.....

 

[themexi]

True... but how much more costly would it be in terms of wasted education.... police enforcement, welfare, foodstamps & social services had these kids lived????

Cost savings all around really

 

[WoodPeckr]

True... but how much more costly would it be in terms of wasted education.... police enforcement, welfare, foodstamps & social services had these kids lived????

Cost savings all around really

LOL!
Spoken like a current 'in the know' member of the present Insurance Death Panels .....

 

[blackrock13]

True... but how much more costly would it be in terms of wasted education.... police enforcement, welfare, foodstamps & social services had these kids lived????

Cost savings all around really

So let me see if I got this right. A high infant mortality rate gives those of us who dodged that bullet a better life.

Have you been reading MB's books on circular logic or what?

Please say you were joking!!!

 

[onthebottom]

OTB;

It's simple. In general, citizens of the USA spend more than anyone on health, 40/60% more, depending on how you calculate it, and live shorter lives than 30/35/45, other countries. The different numbers come from how various people do the calculations. In other words, they're paying more, a lot more for less. That's inferior.

By the way, Canada ranked 14/10/7th. Not bad for a system that doesn't work.

It's simple analysis, but I think it's flawed.

Our care is expensive, for a number of reasons I've articulated above.

We live a few months shorter than Denmark on average because (I would argue) of choices we make not the healthcare we have access to.

OTB

 

[WoodPeckr]

So let me see if I got this right. A high infant mortality rate gives those of us who dodged that bullet a better life.

Have you been reading MB's books on circular logic or what?

Please say you were joking!!!

Doubt it's a joke, conservatives think like that!...

The notion of 'Compassionate Conservatism' has always been a myth....

 

[blackrock13]

It's simple analysis, but I think it's flawed.

Our care is expensive, for a number of reasons I've articulated above.

We live a few months shorter than Denmark on average because (I would argue) of choices we make not the healthcare we have access to.

OTB

But everyone makes those same choices.

I'm not sure I'd be too proud of having a life style/system, as I will not put all the blame on the system, that puts me behind Bosnia for life expectancy. You can't always account for STUPID.

 

[onthebottom]

But everyone makes those same choices.

I'm not sure I'd be too proud of having a life style/system, as I will not put all the blame on the system, that puts me behind Bosnia for life expectancy. You can't always account for STUPID.

What's your point?

That American's make bad choices, I would agree.

That has nothing to do with the cause/effect relationship you're trying to draw between a healthcare system and life expectancy.

OTB

 

[WoodPeckr]

That has nothing to do with the cause/effect relationship you're trying to draw between a healthcare system and life expectancy.

OTB

The point is, it shows how present RATIONING by wealth in the USA, has to do with the cause/effect relationship between a healthcare system and life expectancy.

 

[onthebottom]

The point is, it shows how present RATIONING by wealth in the USA, has to do with the cause/effect relationship between a healthcare system and life expectancy.

You're 0/2 on these points. You can't show rationing by wealth (or income if you don't understand the difference) nor can you show a cause/effect relationship.

So, no change in your usual score.

OTB