France

[GlavaMan]

"France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks, it is a fine country" - Mark Twain
>
> "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one
> behind me." - General George S. Patton
>
> "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your
> accordion." - Norman Schwartzkopf
>
> "We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it." -
> Marge Simpson
>
> "As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure." - Jacques Chirac,
> President of France
> "As far as France is concerned, you're right." - Rush Limbaugh,
>
> "The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is
> sitting in Paris sipping coffee." - Regis Philbin
>
> "The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any
better
> on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in
> Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than
> sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know." -
P.J
> O'Rourke (1989)
>
> "You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the
> 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the
> face for it." - John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona
>
> "You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he
> hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French,
> people." - Conan O'Brien
>
> "I don't know why people are surprised that France won't help us get
Saddam
> out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of
> France!" - Jay Leno
>
> "The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into
Paris
> under a German flag." - David Letterman
>
> "The next time there is a war the ***** has to keep France." - Anonymous

 

[submissivedave]

I don't know what to say ... for one thing, I respect the French for saying "NO !" to Uncle Sam. IMHO, this is America's war, not France's war, not Europe's war. Just look at Vietname. Although it started out as a "French thing", a former French colony, the Americans still could not get in and get out. The US over expanded and they lost the Vietnam war ...

As for French bashing ... I don't think I would do any of that. Think of all the great things the French have contributed to world history and the intellectual world. After all, it was the French Revolution of 1789 that brought us into the "Modern Era". When it comes to great minds, France has many some of whic include:
Montaigne, The Philosophes (Voltaire, Diderot, Montesquieu, etc.), Jean Paul Satre, Foucault, Lyotard, just to name a few.

We can not say the French are a bunch of useless cowards just because they decided to opt out of America's war. In fact, we should praise the French for their courage to say no to a global hegemony.

Just remember, the modern French state was born out of revolution, a revolution for librerty, freedom, and free from oppression.

- "Man was born free, yet, he is everywhere in chains." - Jean Jacques Rousseau

Thanks, just my humble and unworthy opinion,

sd

 

[papasmerf]

without France's help there would be no United States

I believe this debt has been paid by the blood of the first marine division at Normandy.

 

[james t kirk]

I guess the Americans should give back that statue off of the east river in New York.

Someone also wrote, the Germans invaded france in 1940 and the allies didn't do anything about it until June 6 of 1944.

I would love to go to Paris and so should anyone with half a brain.

 

[Bababooie]

"F" the French

You Canadians are amazing. On one hand you can't stand the French from Quebec, but on the other you hate the Americans even more. Who cares, you and the French can have each other. You seem to forget the French originally agreed to the resolution, and then welched on the deal. Maybe when the terroists actually kill some of your relatives or friends you'll actuall care about taking care of the problem before it gets to the point of another World War. You'ld make a good democrat down here.

 

[Ripper77]

France just wants to backup its interests in Iraq.They have no courage,honesty or morals.

 

[submissivedave]

Biggis Dickis,

That is the best comment I have read/heard so far about America's foreign policy !!!

I think you should be elected MP for that !!!

Way to go ...

sd

 

[luckyjackson]

I believe this debt has been paid by the blood of the first marine division at Normandy.

then that would make you even.

 

[E_B_Samaritano]

ya it was just the States that didn't give a shit about the rest of the world until they were attacked, now there attacked and they think the rest of the world should all come running, call us in a couple of years Yanks, if you haven't already retreated with your tail between your legs, again.

Acutally if you know anything about your own history during WW2 you'd realize that an overwhelming MAJORITY of Canadians were against the entry of Canada into the war. The US had post WW1 went on a peace footing and had demilitarized as a result of that war. We tried our best to keep our nose out of that war, but the rest of you just wouldn't let us. When we did show up, make no mistake about it, we put an end to it. That was the story then, that will be the story during our lifetime for all global conflict.

Canada is well within it's rights as a sovereign country to disagree with any policy of the US. I for one will never hold a grudge for that. What I do detest, is that you hide behind the skirts of a feckless body comprised largely of undemocractic countries, and are naive enough to trust the future of your country to that organization. Whereas I disagree strongly with the pro war position of the Bush Administration, I do have to voice my dissappointment once again that Canada has made just one more "waffle" for all that maple syrup you produce.

EBS

 

[drg]

Its amazing that the US only realized the true nature of the French until just recently.

While France has history of standing up for what they believe don't forget that France was the first Western country to renounce slavery. Something that was as radical a thought as standing up to the US now.

However in this case I believe their motives are selfish and they are taking advantage of Geaorge W's bumling y'all will do what I tell you attitude to embarass him in front of the world. France has been itching to push themselves onto the world stage ever since they recently restarted their nucu'lear testing program.

As far as I am concerned both the US and France are a pair of hypocrits. France because they do not want to jeopodize their business interests and the US because they have never once admitted that maybe they made a mistake by supporting Iraq in the past. The US knows that Sadam has weapons of mass destruction because they have the receipts. That is why they don't want to give the proof to the UN inspectors it leads right back to the US. They just want to bomb the shit out of Iraq to get rid of the proof.

Also I think that Saudi Arabia has much more to do with 911 than Iraq. If another terrorist attack occurs I garranty that there will be a lot more Saudis involved than Iraqis.

But George W will not want to do anything to put the oil interests of his cronies at risk by going after the real trouble makers.

To all those fellas who say that they US saved France might I remind you the JUNO beach was the most succesfull landing. Also the US got involved in the war becasue the other altenatives was Stalin controlling the Europe and the oil fields of the middle east or Hitler controlling Europe the oil fields of the Middle East and a airforce full of Jets to face the US Mustangs..

 

[Big Bear]

The first thing to remember in all this was that 1441 as drafted called for the disarming of Iraq not a regime change. That is what the world bought into when it approved the resolution. Maybe the rest of the world was naive to believe this was what the US wanted but it is what we all agreed to in the resolution. Hence a lot of people myself included believe that inspections should have been allowed to play out and if Saddam did not disarm or was not showing signs of disarming then Iraq should have been forceably disarmed. However this was not the case when the US pulled the plug and is why there were 3 vetos pending, France, Russia and China and why apparently the US and Britian could not even get a simple majority in the council.

George W. changed the rules after the fact to state it was about regime change and then tried to bully the rest of the world into going along with it. This is no different than the CIA plotting the overthrow of Allende in Chile or the leader of South Vietnam except it is a lot less subtle.

The UN charter, drafted in large part by Americans, specifically precludes the UN from becoming involved in the internal affairs of a state. This means they are not supposed to be encouraging or participating in regime changes. After all who is to be the judge and how do you decide? While I dislike Cretiien and feel he is yesterday's man this is one time I am glad he has stood on the principle that without UN backing we are not participating.

Frankly I am afraid the US is going to reap the whirlwind in all this by creating lasting enemies in the Middle East and terrorist attacks at home. As well I have serious doubts it is gong to be as easy as everyone says and we could be looking at something lasting 6 months or longer. I hope I am wrong because the cost then in human terms will be enormous

 

[GlavaMan]

Shezzz...

I shoulda put this in the joke thread.

 

[james t kirk]

Re: "F" the French

You Canadians are amazing. On one hand you can't stand the French from Quebec, but on the other you hate the Americans even more. Who cares, you and the French can have each other.

You'ld make a good democrat down here.

First off, lets get a few things straight.

I love Quebec. Been there hundreds of times and never had a problem.

I would argue that ignorance breeds contempt.

I admire the french for having the balls to stand up to uncle sam.

The arguement about the french just protecting their interests is absurd because the french do more business with the USA than iraq and everyone knew this war was inevitable so i am sure that the french if they were only worried about some business in iraq could have applied to uncle sam for some sort of compensation and you would have been tripping over yourselves to pay it. (Case in point Turkey - here's 30 billion dollars, and they told you to stick it too.)

The entire world is filled with anti american sentiment at the moment, it's not just a canadian thing. Americans are safe to travel in Canada. Canadians tend to be passive agressive someties with the us depending on how we feel about the us that day.

Bottom line, the french, the russians, the chinese, hell even the pope are all opposed this entire madness because you essentially want the green light to kill a lot of innocent people who have done nothing to you.


That's called morally wrong.

 

[E_B_Samaritano]

As far as I am concerned both the US and France are a pair of hypocrits. France because they do not want to jeopodize their business interests and the US because they have never once admitted that maybe they made a mistake by supporting Iraq in the past. The US knows that Sadam has weapons of mass destruction because they have the receipts. That is why they don't want to give the proof to the UN inspectors it leads right back to the US. They just want to bomb the shit out of Iraq to get rid of the proof.

Also I think that Saudi Arabia has much more to do with 911 than Iraq. If another terrorist attack occurs I garranty that there will be a lot more Saudis involved than Iraqis.

But George W will not want to do anything to put the oil interests of his cronies at risk by going after the real trouble makers.

Drg,

I'm a bit puzzled by your comments about the weapons of mass destruction alledgedly supplied by the US. Of all countries involved in that region, the contribution of the US to arming Iraq is well documented. I'm not sure that we have to admit anything, let alone admit it was a mistake to support Iraq. I personally don't think anybody cognizant of world affairs, who was in a position at the time to DO anything about the balance of power in the Mid East could make a statement like that. The alternative was to risk further encroachment of radical Islam. Recall we had hostages taken in Iran as a result of the fall of the Shah. Like it or not, the incessant meddling of the US in the Middle East has on balance produced a great deal more stability than what would have occurred without intervention. That my friend is foreign policy. Children sit at the table and eat the food offerred. Otherwise they can leave. But they have NOTHING to say that matters to the course of events in the household. I'm sure you get that analogy. On the other hand, the French and the Russians were heavily involved in supplying Iraq with both nuclear and chem/bio WMD. This was prior to 1983, before the US had any diplomatic contact with Iraq. The gas used in the early 80's in the fighting was supplied by France and oh did I forget Germany. All of these countries are owed BILLIONS for these weapons. They have traded with Iraq, against UN sanction, to their own selfish interests and have been largely responsible for whatever Saddam has been able to develop. Osirak--the reactor sold to Iraq despite the fact he knew they wanted it to make the bomb was a masterpiece named after Mr. Chirac himself. The French furthermore supplied Israel with the bomb. The US has never been responsible for giving weaponized BIO WMD to ANYBODY. The anthrax and biotoxins we gave Iraq were delivered as cultures to a legitimate research facility within Iraq. Had we wanted to give them bio WMDs, why would we bother with cultures used primarily for medical research. The reason for the severity of many of the UN sanctions on Iraq is exactly because we were burned due to this misuse of dual use items. It is true we were aware of the use of gas in that region in the late 80's and frankly did nothing to stop it. That is precisely why I have ZERO respect for the delusional psychotic running our country right now. This war is plain and simple about hegemony. Its power politics between the wannabes and those who are and will be on top for a long time.

Some of you who constantly refer to US mistakes in conduct of foreign policy frankly speaking have no frame of reference. The world is a Chinese jigsaw puzzle. With the Soviet Union on the loose, we often time had to hold our noses and jump in bed with some unsavory characters. Given that we now have no "Bear loose in the woods" at the present, there can be no excuse for our continued support of these regimes. They will fall one by one as we change the politics of the countries involved. You blamed us for supporting these guys, now you'll blame us for trying to rectify the situation. Pull up a chair and watch. As conflicted as I am about the situation in Iraq, I'm driven more to believe we're doing the right thing...the more I hear from the left.

EBS

 

[E_B_Samaritano]

The first thing to remember in all this was that 1441 as drafted called for the disarming of Iraq not a regime change. That is what the world bought into when it approved the resolution. Maybe the rest of the world was naive to believe this was what the US wanted but it is what we all agreed to in the resolution. Hence a lot of people myself included believe that inspections should have been allowed to play out and if Saddam did not disarm or was not showing signs of disarming then Iraq should have been forceably disarmed. However this was not the case when the US pulled the plug and is why there were 3 vetos pending, France, Russia and China and why apparently the US and Britian could not even get a simple majority in the council.

George W. changed the rules after the fact to state it was about regime change and then tried to bully the rest of the world into going along with it. This is no different than the CIA plotting the overthrow of Allende in Chile or the leader of South Vietnam except it is a lot less subtle.

The UN charter, drafted in large part by Americans, specifically precludes the UN from becoming involved in the internal affairs of a state. This means they are not supposed to be encouraging or participating in regime changes. After all who is to be the judge and how do you decide? While I dislike Cretiien and feel he is yesterday's man this is one time I am glad he has stood on the principle that without UN backing we are not participating.

Frankly I am afraid the US is going to reap the whirlwind in all this by creating lasting enemies in the Middle East and terrorist attacks at home. As well I have serious doubts it is gong to be as easy as everyone says and we could be looking at something lasting 6 months or longer. I hope I am wrong because the cost then in human terms will be enormous

Big Bear,

I can agree in principle with most of what you say. The reality is that inspections would never work without a credible display of force. Take away US troops, and nobody else can muster an army that can take care of business. ANY objective party knows that the only way to get assurances of disarmament is to remove Saddam Hussein from the picture. There can be no doubt that the man retains weapons of mass destruction. He didn't voluntarily tell us about his nuclear program...there is no reason to believe that he would tell us about anything else. The inspectors are there to verify not to find. The French and Russians would never go for forceable disarmament because they know that means a fall of the government. Without that government, they're out of billions. It was the French who announced they would veto an alternative to be presented by the British, even before Iraq or anybody else could have a look at the proposal. It was the French that made further diplomatic efforts moot and in effect shot Colin Powell in the back. Powell made an honest attempt to involve the rest of the UN. In the end petty jealousy took over. The French appear brave only to fools. They can stop nothing the US wants to do. Only our concious can do that. They can sit in New York and piss and moan while we go out prosecute our will, a will that should have been a joint effort of the world community.

I share your concern about the blowback from this intervention. It will tie up US assets in the region for the next ten years. As for terrorism, we are already targets. The difference now is that it will not be as easy for terrorists to operate in the US, as it is for them to operate in France. This war has nothing to do with terrorism. It is strictly a foreign policy dreamed up by the American branch of the Likud party. It is about unfettered access to the region and its oil and a tip of the balance of power in favor of that faux democracy created in the dessert from misappropriated land. Democracy in Iraq...I highly doubt it...too many factions infighting. As soon as we get rid of Saddam, they can concentrate on whacking each other.

EBS

 

[papasmerf]

oh you mean the second War in which the Americans waited a couple of years to get involved in, yes I am aware of the debt, one of them was a relative of mine, he fought and died to rid the world of Fascism I never knew him but I am sure he would be disgusted by the actions of the United States today, how many Iraqui's will be slaughtered so the American cab replace one dictator with another and I wonder how many of you will admit how wrong you are a couple of years from now when all of this crap about Democrcacy in Iraq is long forgotten about.

Were I you I would not speak for the dead.

Your relitive gave his life as a patriot and this is a word you have no understanding of.

 

[papasmerf]

Re: Re: "F" the French

First off, lets get a few things straight.



I would argue that ignorance breeds contempt.

I admire the french for having the balls to stand up to uncle sam.

and you would have been tripping over yourselves to pay it. (Case in point Turkey - here's 30 billion dollars, and they told you to stick it too.)

The reason canadians sometimes hate americans is because you are the pigs of the world. You are fat, arrogant, stupid, self absorbed with no concern for anyone's wefare except your own. The entire world is filled with anti american sentiment at the moment.

"I would argue that ignorance breeds contempt."

I guess you said it best.

Thank you for putting it in prospective.

 

[Snook.fr]

France just wants to backup its interests in Iraq.They have no courage,honesty or morals.

I am sure you have a lot of personal experience to back that up....
I am waiting....

 

[papasmerf]

I am sure you have a lot of personal experience to back that up....
I am waiting....

Can you say RECENT HISTORY????
sure of course you can

 

[Snook.fr]

You Americans Make me laugh.....

WHY DID YOU WAIT 12 FUCKING YEARS TO REALIZE SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS A DANGER TO SOCIETY?

I Think If Bush had started his "Iraqi" campain by Saying Let's Kick out Saddam, Most Europe would have Agreed.
Why did he start with WMD, then the Regime, then Saddam?

USA should know exactly how many Nuclear Weapons Iraq has...(or maybe they threw out All the receipts from what THEY sold them back then when Russia was helping Iran.....)

Frenchy