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Ethiopian Plane Crash

SchlongConery

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Jan 28, 2013
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When MCAS works, its fine, when sensors go bad or how it reacts to anomalous readings then its dangerous. MCAS does not activate when flaps are down, but what happens if the flap sensor fails (as I suspect it did in this case) then it will push the planes nose down just after takeoff..as it appears happened in this case.

I've gotta say nottyboi, you do know aircraft and what you are talking about. Thanks for the insightful information any opinions.

MCAS's reaction to roll in more trim to counter forward stick pressure reminds me of the old autopilots that would do just that if a pilot tried to override with out disconnecting the AP. And when you let go of the yoke, or disengaged the AP when it was out of trim... would scare the shit outta everyone. Sometimes it resulted in fatalities. Training took a long time to overcome that in GA.

However, in this case, the "feature" seems not to have been well communicated. Or it is just might be a bad design from a Human Factors perspective. I don't know enough to say or think much more except there seems to ba an issue.
 

poorboy

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Aug 18, 2001
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I've gotta say nottyboi, you do know aircraft and what you are talking about. Thanks for the insightful information any opinions.

MCAS's reaction to roll in more trim to counter forward stick pressure reminds me of the old autopilots that would do just that if a pilot tried to override with out disconnecting the AP. And when you let go of the yoke, or disengaged the AP when it was out of trim... would scare the shit outta everyone. Sometimes it resulted in fatalities. Training took a long time to overcome that in GA.

However, in this case, the "feature" seems not to have been well communicated. Or it is just might be a bad design from a Human Factors perspective. I don't know enough to say or think much more except there seems to ba an issue.
No he doesn't. If he did, he wouldn't be calling the 737 MAX "heaps". Airframes have long lives. It's the engines and avionics that go out of date. Lockheed has been making the C130 continuously for over 60 years. The De Havilland Twin Otter blueprints have been bought out by Viking Air, and is back in production. The DC3 is still flying and being modernized by companies like Basler. The Boeing B52 will outlast the Boeing B1 and will be closing in on 100 years old before it is retired. Same with some KC135 tankers.

You can be just as educated on the topic as he is or even myself. Just use the internet.

I've been a pilot since 1987, and have heard the Boeing vs. Airbus rivalry for that entire time. As a whole, neither manufacturer builds a superior product than the other and the large majority of airlines buy from whoever gives them the best deal on the plane that the manufacturer has made, or can make to their specification. Even though it's a duopoly, competition is intense. Contract performance penalties ensure airlines do not suffer economic loss for purchasing an underperforming model. Boeing and Airbus are aircraft corporations, not just manufacturers. You aren't just buying a plane.

Both have made troublesome aircraft or strategic failures. The Airbus A400M has had huge developmental problems and it took 5 years longer than it should have to deliver an airframe. Airbus' ego made them produce the A380 so they could claim to have the largest airliner in the world, despite Boeing's study that airline travel future was going to be point to point instead of hub and spoke. A380's running Rolls Royce engines have fan blade cracking issues. The Boeing 747 will still be in production when the last A380 rolls off the line because Boeing has a freighter variant.

Neither Boeing nor Airbus are going anywhere. They fall into the category of too big to fail. Both are essential to national security of NATO countries, which is another reason they will not fail. Both Boeing and Airbus build transports, helicopters and fighters for NATO countries and neutral countries like India.
 

nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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I've gotta say nottyboi, you do know aircraft and what you are talking about. Thanks for the insightful information any opinions.

MCAS's reaction to roll in more trim to counter forward stick pressure reminds me of the old autopilots that would do just that if a pilot tried to override with out disconnecting the AP. And when you let go of the yoke, or disengaged the AP when it was out of trim... would scare the shit outta everyone. Sometimes it resulted in fatalities. Training took a long time to overcome that in GA.

However, in this case, the "feature" seems not to have been well communicated. Or it is just might be a bad design from a Human Factors perspective. I don't know enough to say or think much more except there seems to ba an issue.

The reasons for downplaying MCAS and not including it in any training etc are pretty sinister. If Boeing has done the right thing here, it would not have the same type rating for pilots and thus would increrase conversion costs, make the whole "single type fleet" argument with its largest customers (Ryan air and Southwest) weaker and thus open the door to A320 NEO it would also weaken the cost barrrier to converting to A320 NEO. So it appears they decided to bury it and now that decision seems to have cost 300+ people their lives. I am not sure about the Ethopian crash yet, but I am pretty certain if the Lion Air pilots had been fully alerted to how MCAS works, they would not have crashed.
 

WarGames

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Mar 26, 2018
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Pilots said in prior reports that soon after engaging the autopilot on Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, the nose tilted down sharply...” The new, heavier engines necessitate these electronic sensor overrides.

Following Lion Air Flight 610 crash, a report based a malfunction in the AoA sensors could lead the on-board computer to believe that the aircraft is stalling, causing it to automatically initiate a dive. The FAA urged all airlines operating Boeing 737 MAXs to heed the warnings.

 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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From a software design ("AI") perspective, it is simply a case of faulty design. It is not an airplane design issue. It is a software or what people now call it, an AI problem.

Quite simply and clearly, it is not a viable solution to any problem to fly the airplane into the ground.. So a software (AI) system that does that is faulty, and does not have the appropriate checks on what situation the airplane find itself in. Let me express it very simply: if an airplane is close to the ground, it is NEVER a solution to point the nose towards the ground.

I am reminded of an email I received from TAP Portugal airline, which stated that I was booked on a flight to Lisbon arriving 19:30, and continuing on a flight 18:00. The next line cheerfully stated that I had a connection time of -1:30 hours.

PS: I am not an aircraft engineer, but I do know about software design.

Heaven help us all when there will be millions of cars on the road driven by software.
 

WarGames

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Full disclosure: I'm no aviation expert either; I come strictly from the University of Google.

Interesting read. Could be part of the explanation. https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/

Boeing Withheld Information on 737 Model, According to Safety Experts and Others

"One high ranking Boeing official said the company had decided against disclosing more details to cockpit crew due to concerns about inundating average pilots with too much information -- and significantly more technical data -- than they needed or could digest."
 

Darts

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Jan 15, 2017
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The way planes are built now it is doubtful we will ever see skilled pilots like Jim Lovell (Apollo 13) and Chesley Sullenberger (Miracle on the Hudson) again. The machines have taken over.
 

nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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The way planes are built now it is doubtful we will ever see skilled pilots like Jim Lovell (Apollo 13) and Chesley Sullenberger (Miracle on the Hudson) again. The machines have taken over.
Sully was flying an A320 which is 100% fly by wire, so if anything the computers made it easier for him to fly while he made the right decisions. Not to diminish what Sully did but the greatest feat of aviation in saving a damaged jetliner is these guys:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Baghdad_DHL_attempted_shootdown_incident
 

lomotil

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Mar 14, 2004
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How did Boeing's stock close? If this accident happened in American then Boeing would really really be taken down with lawsuits almost towards Chapter 11. But they are too big to fail. If it comes out that Boeing knew anything negligent about Max 8 or ought to have then and failed to act, then this is simply asinine.
 

icespot

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Jul 7, 2005
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Like I said before so glad you guys are not working this investigation.

There are so many things that could have happen and if you already made up your mind without having the EVIDENCE, you will never never find the real issue.

One thing is for sure, it is never just one single thing that goes wrong.

You guys should watch Mayday Air Crash Investigations.

Give it time, it will come out and when it does and if it was boing I'll help you all lynch boing executives responsible.
 

surferboy

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Jan 7, 2014
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Sounds to me like grounds for one heck of a lawsuit!
Yes for Boeing & the Lion Air crash, not so much for Ethiopia. The airline will be more on the hook for that one, Boeing & the FAA issued bulletins over four months ago on it. That's plenty of time to train your pilots & in the words of United's central air safety committee rep from FOUR MONTHS ago in regards to a MCAS malfunction "You will do exactly as you've been trained- you will fly the plane, stop the runway trim(using the cutout switches on the pedestal) and then continue to fly the airplane until you have landed safely".

Still sounds like a software design issue that needs to be addressed but a pilot that has sufficient seat time in a 737 & is aware of the system & how to disengage it should have no problem keeping it in the air. Before you ever step foot in one you have to past the simulator & that throws just about every scenario you could think of at you...& then some you wouldn't think are possible!
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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Yes for Boeing & the Lion Air crash, not so much for Ethiopia. The airline will be more on the hook for that one, Boeing & the FAA issued bulletins over four months ago on it. That's plenty of time to train your pilots & in the words of United's central air safety committee rep from FOUR MONTHS ago in regards to a MCAS malfunction "You will do exactly as you've been trained- you will fly the plane, stop the runway trim(using the cutout switches on the pedestal) and then continue to fly the airplane until you have landed safely".

Still sounds like a software design issue that needs to be addressed but a pilot that has sufficient seat time in a 737 & is aware of the system & how to disengage it should have no problem keeping it in the air. Before you ever step foot in one you have to past the simulator & that throws just about every scenario you could think of at you...& then some you wouldn't think are possible!
It is a software problem that has to be fixed. For an airplane flying close to the ground as in takeoff, it is not a viable solution to any problem to point the nose towards the ground.. A software (AI) system that does that is faulty, and does not have the appropriate checks on what situation the airplane find itself in. Why should pilots have to be trained to counteract a faulty software system?

Quite likely, Boeing had to get the 737 max out the door too fast for competitive reasons.
 

poorboy

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Aug 18, 2001
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It is a software problem that has to be fixed. For an airplane flying close to the ground as in takeoff, it is not a viable solution to any problem to point the nose towards the ground.. A software (AI) system that does that is faulty, and does not have the appropriate checks on what situation the airplane find itself in. Why should pilots have to be trained to counteract a faulty software system?

Quite likely, Boeing had to get the 737 max out the door too fast for competitive reasons.
Hard to say. Airliners are very complex and experience problems all the time. Can't hold a plane in testing forever.

The Airbus A330 was introduced in 1994, but it wasn't until 2009 when Air France flight 447 crashed because faulty pitot tubes set off a chain reaction of bad decisions. The pilots could also not correct contradictory control inputs because unlike Boeing aircraft that have the flight controls physically connected to each other, Airbus uses side sticks that do not provide feedback between the pilots. Air France knew the pitot tubes were faulty, but did not ground the aircraft because the pitot tubes still met the certification standards. Of course they replaced them all after the crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30UiJvNgW-4
 

jcpro

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Jan 31, 2014
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I don't think that the pilots of both planes even knew that MCAS existed.
 

nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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Hard to say. Airliners are very complex and experience problems all the time. Can't hold a plane in testing forever.

The Airbus A330 was introduced in 1994, but it wasn't until 2009 when Air France flight 447 crashed because faulty pitot tubes set off a chain reaction of bad decisions. The pilots could also not correct contradictory control inputs because unlike Boeing aircraft that have the flight controls physically connected to each other, Airbus uses side sticks that do not provide feedback between the pilots. Air France knew the pitot tubes were faulty, but did not ground the aircraft because the pitot tubes still met the certification standards. Of course they replaced them all after the crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30UiJvNgW-4
The AF447 was 100% crew error, the FO completely fucked up and froze. There was some code that did mess up the pilots in recovering, but the FO panicked an put the plane into a deep stall then held the nose up. If he had just let go of the fucking stick, the plane would have recovered on its own.
Pitot tube freezing can occur under rare conditions and yes they did redesign these to make it even less likely but it can still happen and you can still get inaccurate speed data from any plane. Ironically, MCAS might have saved AF447.
 
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