Never really worried about terrorism, but think that things just got a lot more dangerous with the election in Spain being influenced by a terrorist attack. Spain has announced they will now be pulling out of Iraq. What a stunning success for the terrorists.
Election in Spain
- Thread starter KBear
- Start date
The reason that terrorism flourishes is b/c of the disparity of wealth and level of poverty prevalent in the Middle Eastern countries. Instead of bombing infrastructure with million plus dollar missiles the problem would be better solved by building up the infrastructure in those countries and creating wealth through economic ties and diplomacy.
You cannot fight terrorism with terrorism, which is what the US and other countries are attempting to do. Ultimately what happens is a bigger cycle of hatred is created as witnessed by the latest bombing.
You cannot fight terrorism with terrorism, which is what the US and other countries are attempting to do. Ultimately what happens is a bigger cycle of hatred is created as witnessed by the latest bombing.
A missile up the ass!!!
You're a fucking bleeding heart liberal Jaded one. The only language that these fuckers understand is a missile up the ass! And they better give us their fucking oil and at prices we agree to and in US$. Who do they think that they are? We don't give a fuck about their culture, their religion, their standard of living, etc. The only reason that they are not still wandering around the desert, like primitive barbarians is because of us, and the technology that we have magnanimously let them have. And the bastard should be thankful that we liberated them from an evil tyrant whom we aided and abetted until he went rogue on us. What do we care if their culture is not suited for "corporate democracy", we will make sure that they will be free under "democracy", even if it is not the will of the majority. Oh you mean that MoFo Osama, that ungrateful SOB! After all the CIA did for him in his cause against the commies, you’d think that he would be grateful and not bite the hand that fed him. Goes to show you can’t trust those people and all they understand is a missile up the ass! Thank god Dubya will not let terrorists win in the USA. GWB in 2004 all the way baby!
You're a fucking bleeding heart liberal Jaded one. The only language that these fuckers understand is a missile up the ass! And they better give us their fucking oil and at prices we agree to and in US$. Who do they think that they are? We don't give a fuck about their culture, their religion, their standard of living, etc. The only reason that they are not still wandering around the desert, like primitive barbarians is because of us, and the technology that we have magnanimously let them have. And the bastard should be thankful that we liberated them from an evil tyrant whom we aided and abetted until he went rogue on us. What do we care if their culture is not suited for "corporate democracy", we will make sure that they will be free under "democracy", even if it is not the will of the majority. Oh you mean that MoFo Osama, that ungrateful SOB! After all the CIA did for him in his cause against the commies, you’d think that he would be grateful and not bite the hand that fed him. Goes to show you can’t trust those people and all they understand is a missile up the ass! Thank god Dubya will not let terrorists win in the USA. GWB in 2004 all the way baby!
That's pure gold. I'd be laughing my ass off if it wasn't for the number of people who'd say something like that, and actually mean it.
In the immediate aftermath of 9-11 I would have agreed with Jaded-One's belief that povery was to blame for muslim terrorism.
But it came out that Bin Laden is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and that the 9-11 attackers were all from fairly well-to-do families, not the desperate lot I had expected.
THe other thing worth noting is that poverty is as bad in south Asia, latin ameriaca, and in our own backyard, among aboriginal canadians (and americans and australians etc...). Yet none of these groups is involved in this sort of murderous activity.
So poverty is a very poor predictor of who will become a terrorist. One might consider looking to what the terrorists themselves say. They seem to want all "foreign" presence out of their countries (and note that this extends to non-Muslim natives of their own countries), want to wage holy war against the crusaders (e.g. the christian, western world), etc...
While I don't doubt that support for these muderers would diminish among Muslims if there was democracy, education, and less poverty in these countries, (remember that the terrorists smartly also provide social services to the poor) -- it is another thing to say that we brought this upon ourselves by being relatively well-off. At the same time the western nations should remember that successful empires treat their subjects well.
While all this may be true, sometimes you just have to say "WHAT THEY DID IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW BAD OFF THE PERPETRATORS ARE, WE MUST WAGE WAR AGAINST THEM."
That the Spanish were so quick to turn and run doesn't make them safe. If you believe it wil make them safe you had better contact your MP and push to get our boys out of Afghanistan.
But it came out that Bin Laden is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and that the 9-11 attackers were all from fairly well-to-do families, not the desperate lot I had expected.
THe other thing worth noting is that poverty is as bad in south Asia, latin ameriaca, and in our own backyard, among aboriginal canadians (and americans and australians etc...). Yet none of these groups is involved in this sort of murderous activity.
So poverty is a very poor predictor of who will become a terrorist. One might consider looking to what the terrorists themselves say. They seem to want all "foreign" presence out of their countries (and note that this extends to non-Muslim natives of their own countries), want to wage holy war against the crusaders (e.g. the christian, western world), etc...
While I don't doubt that support for these muderers would diminish among Muslims if there was democracy, education, and less poverty in these countries, (remember that the terrorists smartly also provide social services to the poor) -- it is another thing to say that we brought this upon ourselves by being relatively well-off. At the same time the western nations should remember that successful empires treat their subjects well.
While all this may be true, sometimes you just have to say "WHAT THEY DID IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW BAD OFF THE PERPETRATORS ARE, WE MUST WAGE WAR AGAINST THEM."
That the Spanish were so quick to turn and run doesn't make them safe. If you believe it wil make them safe you had better contact your MP and push to get our boys out of Afghanistan.
A little background....
One big difference with Osama as opposed to those others, is that Osama was "created, trained and helped" by the BEST, the good ole USA. Bush's daddy, Cheney and Rumsfeld had a big hand in creating Bin Laden back in the 80's when they were fighting the old USSR in Afghanistan. Back then Osama was OUR freedom fighter and he gave the USSR, with USA backing, hell. USA promised Osama help in rebuilding Afghanistan once the USSR was expelled, which NEVER happened. Osama felt betrayed (surprise surprise) and stabbed in the back by the US, causing him to be a bit bitter towards the USA to this day.DATYdude said:
....But it came out that Bin Laden is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and that the 9-11 attackers were all from fairly well-to-do families, not the desperate lot I had expected.
THe other thing worth noting is that poverty is as bad in south Asia, latin ameriaca, and in our own backyard, among aboriginal canadians (and americans and australians etc...). Yet none of these groups is involved in this sort of murderous activity.
I think the old international relations game of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" seriously backfired in the case of Bin Laden, just as it did in the case of Israel choosing to support Hamas back the 1980s as an opponent to the PLO.
Definitely shaking hands with the devil.
Definitely shaking hands with the devil.
Actually, it's a stunning victory for democracy. 90% of Spain's population disagreed with Aznar's decision to send troops to Iraq.KBear said:Never really worried about terrorism, but think that things just got a lot more dangerous with the election in Spain being influenced by a terrorist attack. Spain has announced they will now be pulling out of Iraq. What a stunning success for the terrorists.
Wouldn't it be more of a victory for the terrorists if they managed to convince all of us that we'd better vote for the biggest gun-toting nuke-everybody retard out of fear, rather that voting for who we feel acts in the best interests of our country?
Perhaps the people of Spain were indicating that they didn't think invading Iraq was a successful way of fighting terrorism. I, and a sizable proportion of the world, including more and more Americans, happen to agree.
i am gonna have to agree with Drunken Master on this one, the vast majority of the population of Spain were against their country's involvement with Georgie Jr's war along with the rush to blame ETA by the previous government without getting all the facts, the population just figured out hey its payback time, up next I hope is Tony in London, that dumb ass in Italy Berlusconi, and finally good ole Georgie himself.
Bin Ladin is another Hitler. His mind has become warped. He has money. He has intelligence, and he is successful at what he does.
The only answer is to take him on, take him out with his followers, and hope no one comes along like him for a long time.
Spain bailed out. We all should take on this son of a bitch like Bush has. I personally do not like Bush, but I sure like his cold, beady eyed fire he has to eliminate this ass hole.
The only answer is to take him on, take him out with his followers, and hope no one comes along like him for a long time.
Spain bailed out. We all should take on this son of a bitch like Bush has. I personally do not like Bush, but I sure like his cold, beady eyed fire he has to eliminate this ass hole.
Excellent points, it's true that the Spanish elections may have gone the same way anyway.
It should have always been obvious to anyone who follows middle east news that the invasion of Iraq was never really about the war on terrorism, except perhaps only very indirectly, i.e. as a naive attempt by the US to get rid of Saddam and establish a beachead for Arab democracy at the same time, which could over the long term act as a force against terrorism (I'm being about as positive about US motives as I can be).
In any case, a world without Saddam Hussein is better than a world with him. Too bad the world doesn't go and kick out every two-bit dictator everywhere else and try to force democracy on everyone.
It should have always been obvious to anyone who follows middle east news that the invasion of Iraq was never really about the war on terrorism, except perhaps only very indirectly, i.e. as a naive attempt by the US to get rid of Saddam and establish a beachead for Arab democracy at the same time, which could over the long term act as a force against terrorism (I'm being about as positive about US motives as I can be).
In any case, a world without Saddam Hussein is better than a world with him. Too bad the world doesn't go and kick out every two-bit dictator everywhere else and try to force democracy on everyone.
and Bush is another Ghandi and another Mother Teresa eh?4leafclover said:Bin Ladin is another Hitler.
Shhhhhh.... Don't give them any ideas!DATYdude said:
THe other thing worth noting is that poverty is as bad in south Asia, latin ameriaca, and in our own backyard, among aboriginal canadians (and americans and australians etc...). Yet none of these groups is involved in this sort of murderous activity.
You're right smeg -- but what would our reaction be if a bunch of First Nations people began to attack us with rockets, snipers, and suicide bombers? Let's see. We would demand of our leaders the following:
1. Negotiate.
2. Plan to evacuate us. We're on stolen land.
3. Do whatever the attackers ask. We're SO BAD! ...sniff...sniff...
Not that the First Nations don't have very good claims and our treatment of them and continued ignorance of them should make us ashamed... But it's sad that if they were to start a war against us we'd have lots of people ready to reward them for it. Sadder that our leaders probably will drag their feet on valid claims because the claimant is peaceful.
1. Negotiate.
2. Plan to evacuate us. We're on stolen land.
3. Do whatever the attackers ask. We're SO BAD! ...sniff...sniff...
Not that the First Nations don't have very good claims and our treatment of them and continued ignorance of them should make us ashamed... But it's sad that if they were to start a war against us we'd have lots of people ready to reward them for it. Sadder that our leaders probably will drag their feet on valid claims because the claimant is peaceful.
Re: Re: Election in Spain
Yes but, prior to the bombings, all polls indicated that the government was headed for re-election - likely with a majority.Drunken Master said:Actually, it's a stunning victory for democracy. 90% of Spain's population disagreed with Aznar's decision to send troops to Iraq.
For terrorism to take hold you need poverty, hopelessness, and a sense of despair. You also need other conditions but that is what starts the ball rolling.DATYdude said:But it came out that Bin Laden is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and that the 9-11 attackers were all from fairly well-to-do families, not the desperate lot I had expected.
If the US just minded its own damn business, and had a Middle Eastern policy of just working the system in place, instead of trying to extort and control it, 9-11 would not have happened. Right now the US is inciting even more hatred with their policy of regime change and occupation, and the thing is they can't stay in Iraq forever or possibly win democracy over there.
The best thing the US could do is hand over total control of Iraq to the UN immediately and throw billions of dollars at the situation to improve the economy and infrastructure. As it stands, the US is just creating more terrorists that hate them.
Shake:
"The vote was an astonishing turnaround in political fortunes, perhaps unprecedented in modern politics in any country. While polls last week showed the ruling Popular Party winning by 5 or 6 percentage points, by the time the ballots were counted it had instead lost by that much. The Socialists got about 43 percent of the vote, or 164 seats in the next parliament, compared with 38 percent, and 148 seats, for the Popular Party."
This is from:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...15,0,6137648.story?coll=ny-top-span-headlines
I think the amount by which the Socialists won is being a little overblown in news coverage - yes, a 10-12% point swing in one week is huge, but all this indicates to me is that support for the Popular Party was soft at best. The bombings were a tipping point.
I didn't want to suggest that the bombings had nothing to do with the results of the election - obviously this is not the case. Only that a party with less than 50% support, and which took Spain into a conflict its people wanted no part of, can't really be all that shocked by an election upset.
"The vote was an astonishing turnaround in political fortunes, perhaps unprecedented in modern politics in any country. While polls last week showed the ruling Popular Party winning by 5 or 6 percentage points, by the time the ballots were counted it had instead lost by that much. The Socialists got about 43 percent of the vote, or 164 seats in the next parliament, compared with 38 percent, and 148 seats, for the Popular Party."
This is from:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...15,0,6137648.story?coll=ny-top-span-headlines
I think the amount by which the Socialists won is being a little overblown in news coverage - yes, a 10-12% point swing in one week is huge, but all this indicates to me is that support for the Popular Party was soft at best. The bombings were a tipping point.
I didn't want to suggest that the bombings had nothing to do with the results of the election - obviously this is not the case. Only that a party with less than 50% support, and which took Spain into a conflict its people wanted no part of, can't really be all that shocked by an election upset.
This simply isn't true. One only has to look at the profile of terrorists in the 1970's (Red Brigade, Baader Meinhoff, etc.) to understand that poverty is not a notable factor in terrorism.The_Jaded_One said:For terrorism to take hold you need poverty, hopelessness, and a sense of despair.
