And apparently if Saudi Arabia breeded, and funded anti american terrorists, we wouldn't be opposed to it either. As long as they continue to fill Bush, and daddy Bush's bank accounts i guess.ocean976124 said:
Election in Spain
- Thread starter KBear
- Start date
For all the war-mongers here: Why don't we stop terrorism by not going to Muslim nations and bombing them or overthrowing their leaders when they don't sell us cheap oil? We didn't liked it when they came here to bomb us for 1 day-- why would they like it us going there to bomb them for all these decades? Would we like it if they came here and installed unpopular leaders in Washington or Ottawa?
Let's reverse things here in an unbiased way:
Imagine Muslim fundamentalists coming to North America to prop-up islamic governments and funding them with money and weapons (the U.S. does this in the Middle East). Then imagine New York invading and annexing New Jersey because NJ has oil but Muslims don't want New Jersey to fall on New Yorker hands because they want the oil for themselves-- Muslims come and bomb the dickens out of New York (meddling in an internal problem). Now imagine the Muslims taking Texas' oil and buying it cheaper than water (in the 1970's a barrel of oil costed less than bottled water). If Texans refused to sell their oil cheap, the Muslims would come and overthrow the "dictator" Texas governor and replace it with a pro-muslim "democratic" governor (a puppet in other words). Imagine the NRA (national rifle association), being angry at so much Muslim interference, injustice and meddling in America's life, send 19 hijackers to Saudi Arabia and crashed 747's in Riyadh, then Saudi Arabia would brand them as "terrorists" and come here to annihiliate every member of the NRA it could find, including invading and bombing NY state (our parallel iraq) with the excuse it had "too many police officers" (WMD weapons) and any other state that supported or was sympathetic to the NRA. Then imagine Muslims selling the notion to the world that any country being sympathetic to the suffering of Americans as being a "rogue nation" and part of an "axis of evil".
Now..... how dare we call Al-Qaeda terrorist? Are we so blind by our greed, vanity and bias that we can no longer tell the difference when our western governments are at fault and when our "enemies" are the true victims of our wicked actions?
Food for thought.
Let's reverse things here in an unbiased way:
Imagine Muslim fundamentalists coming to North America to prop-up islamic governments and funding them with money and weapons (the U.S. does this in the Middle East). Then imagine New York invading and annexing New Jersey because NJ has oil but Muslims don't want New Jersey to fall on New Yorker hands because they want the oil for themselves-- Muslims come and bomb the dickens out of New York (meddling in an internal problem). Now imagine the Muslims taking Texas' oil and buying it cheaper than water (in the 1970's a barrel of oil costed less than bottled water). If Texans refused to sell their oil cheap, the Muslims would come and overthrow the "dictator" Texas governor and replace it with a pro-muslim "democratic" governor (a puppet in other words). Imagine the NRA (national rifle association), being angry at so much Muslim interference, injustice and meddling in America's life, send 19 hijackers to Saudi Arabia and crashed 747's in Riyadh, then Saudi Arabia would brand them as "terrorists" and come here to annihiliate every member of the NRA it could find, including invading and bombing NY state (our parallel iraq) with the excuse it had "too many police officers" (WMD weapons) and any other state that supported or was sympathetic to the NRA. Then imagine Muslims selling the notion to the world that any country being sympathetic to the suffering of Americans as being a "rogue nation" and part of an "axis of evil".
Now..... how dare we call Al-Qaeda terrorist? Are we so blind by our greed, vanity and bias that we can no longer tell the difference when our western governments are at fault and when our "enemies" are the true victims of our wicked actions?
Food for thought.
I think Miguel Moratinos(potentially Spain's new foreign minister) said it best -"If we don't recognize our mistakes, we'll never get into a position to really defeat terror. The sooner we admit that the wrong policy has been made, the better for the future of the international community."
Now you got it. That's US foreign policy in a nut shell.papasmerf said:So like if I blow up your family and friends
You will do as I say
Cool
LOL all that needed was a rim shot*d* said:Now you got it. That's US foreign policy in a nut shell.
this is typical extreme right wing pro Israeli nonsense you would expect from the Georgie jr/Cheney crowd, Israel is the only country that practices international occupation and gets away with it and anyone who disagrees with it is quickly labelled a bigot and anti semite, which is such crapocean976124 said:This is a bunch of hooey. All of these attacks have anti-semetism at their core. They hate Israel and know the Israel most likely couldn't survive without backing from the US. The poverty in the middle east is caused by their own corrupt governments. So instead of pointing the finger at their own for their problems that point to Israel and the USA.
They saw that Europe wasn't exactly going along with the USA so they want to be sure to cut as many allies off from the US as possible.
Unfortunately the citizens of Spain have decided they would rather surrender to terrorism... Oh to have been with Chamberlain in 1938 when he declared he has achived "peace in our time."
Re: We need leaders, not a full democracy
A better question might be, what would the world be like today if, while the Nazi's and Japanese were causing chaos, Roosevelt and Churchill decided to go after the Russians?Bababooie said:In retrospec what would the world be like today if Churchill and Roosevelt didn't want to upset the Nazi's or evne the Japanese.
The people of Spain have been unhappy about the involvement in Iraq from the beginning with many large demonstrations. Many spanish people cannot understand why Spain should invade Iraq.
Personally, I think the reaction was so strong because nobody respects a follower. Leaders like Bush and Blair may be disliked, but followers are usually despised and ridiculed in politics. That was why Blair came out so strong for the war: he did not want to be seen as a follower.
Personally, I think the reaction was so strong because nobody respects a follower. Leaders like Bush and Blair may be disliked, but followers are usually despised and ridiculed in politics. That was why Blair came out so strong for the war: he did not want to be seen as a follower.
Saxon? You mean the English? The Saxons orginally came from Germany, but this is going a bit too far back in history...Bushpilot said:I'm not a liberal, and therefore have a poor grasp of stuff that I don't know anything about.
I cheerfully agree. I also don't know stuff about stuff I don't know anything about. (???)
Drunken Master claims that Spain’s election was “a stunning victory for democracy. 90% of Spain's population disagreed with Aznar's decision to send troops to Iraq.”
A stunning victory for Socialism (not to mention al-Qaeda) maybe, but hardly a stunning victory for democracy when so many of the electorate were running scared because they thought there was “a gun to their head”.
Most of the accounts I've read - todays Globe, various sources on the web, for example - suggest that in fact the Spanish were most pissed off at the fact that the Spanish govenment appeared to be engaging in political opportunism by trying to blame the attack on ETA. Message to Mr. Bush: don't lie to your
constituency. It tends to make them angry.
And let's not lecture the Spanish on democracy, shall we? After the debacle of four years past in the States, and ten years of the one-party system in Canada, I don't think either of us has too much to say to anybody on the subject.
The only hope for DM is that he was living up to his handle when he submitted his comment: otherwise, if he’s Canadian, his future is clearly toast.
Um, it is? Is the sky falling? Should I carry an umbrella when I go outside?
Does anybody have the slightest idea what this cryptic nonsense means?
As an aside, DM: this is why democracies occasionally elect “leaders” to make the unpopular choices that the average-man-on-the-street is incapable of making (cf. the dis-graced Jean Chretian , Canadian PM from 1993-2003.)
Lord have mercy.
I love it - the "dis-graced Chretian" as the model of tough leadership. It sure was tough of him to give 100 million dollars of our money to his buddies.
Roosevelt understood at once both the passions of the population as well as the longer-term implications of Hitler’s European ambitions; he knew that he had to bide his time despite America’s generous (albeit clandestine) support of the war-effort in Europe.
FDR's, and the world’s, moment arrived on Sunday, December 7, 1941. FDR's response to the Pearl Harbour outrage was "to let loose the dogs of war" to recapture civility from the out-riders of civilization: Saxon and Nipponese war-mongers.
"Teutonic" would have been much better. Always try to be as accurate as you can when you are offering up pointless historical cliches you probably got from the back of a sugar packet.
Scouser1 wrote:
"this is typical extreme right wing pro Israeli nonsense you would expect from the Georgie jr/Cheney crowd, Israel is the only country that practices international occupation and gets away with it and anyone who disagrees with it is quickly labelled a bigot and anti semite, which is such crap"
Israel is not the only occupier.
Syria occupies Lebanon.
Best example is China's occupation of Tibet.
I think the point ocean was trying to make is that blame for the plight of the underdeveloped Arab world has been focused for 50 years on Israel and its supporters, most recently the US. It's troubling that you were so fast to label ocean as a purveyor of "typical extreme right wing pro Israeli nonsense" when you don't present any real criticism.
Not everyone who disagrees with Israeli policy is labelled an anti-semite. But sometimes the criticism of Israel has anti-semitism at its root, and hopefully you understand why Jews may be more than a bit sensitive to anti-semitism...
If you're interested in the subject of anti-semitism, check out this article from today's Globe:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040314.wvalpy0315/BNStory/National/
"this is typical extreme right wing pro Israeli nonsense you would expect from the Georgie jr/Cheney crowd, Israel is the only country that practices international occupation and gets away with it and anyone who disagrees with it is quickly labelled a bigot and anti semite, which is such crap"
Israel is not the only occupier.
Syria occupies Lebanon.
Best example is China's occupation of Tibet.
I think the point ocean was trying to make is that blame for the plight of the underdeveloped Arab world has been focused for 50 years on Israel and its supporters, most recently the US. It's troubling that you were so fast to label ocean as a purveyor of "typical extreme right wing pro Israeli nonsense" when you don't present any real criticism.
Not everyone who disagrees with Israeli policy is labelled an anti-semite. But sometimes the criticism of Israel has anti-semitism at its root, and hopefully you understand why Jews may be more than a bit sensitive to anti-semitism...
If you're interested in the subject of anti-semitism, check out this article from today's Globe:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040314.wvalpy0315/BNStory/National/
You can't fight everybody at once and at the time we needed Saudi bases so we had to pressure them without saying we were going to bomb them. But in time Iraq will be where our new Middle East bases will be based out of and we can deal with the Saudis then.Ickabod said:And apparently if Saudi Arabia breeded, and funded anti american terrorists, we wouldn't be opposed to it either. As long as they continue to fill Bush, and daddy Bush's bank accounts i guess.
What? What its not about cheap oil or Islam. OPEC needs us as badly as we need them.Saturn_Alien said:For all the war-mongers here: Why don't we stop terrorism by not going to Muslim nations and bombing them or overthrowing their leaders when they don't sell us cheap oil? We didn't liked it when they came here to bomb us for 1 day-- why would they like it us going there to bomb them for all these decades? Would we like it if they came here and installed unpopular leaders in Washington or Ottawa?
How dare we call Al-Qaeda terrorists???!!!!! OMG, this is the height of stupidity...Now..... how dare we call Al-Qaeda terrorist? Are we so blind by our greed, vanity and bias that we can no longer tell the difference when our western governments are at fault and when our "enemies" are the true victims of our wicked actions?
Food for thought. [/B]
Israel is an occupier? No kidding and with every right to do so. While I don't agree with everything Israel does, lets have a little perspective on why they occupy these territories. They are occupying the land from which several wars were launched against them!!!!!!!! Its strategic land that Israel's enemy's used to attack Israel from. And in 1967 Israel had had enough and when they were attacked they kept pushing their enemies back until that strategic land could no longer be used against them.scouser1 said:this is typical extreme right wing pro Israeli nonsense you would expect from the Georgie jr/Cheney crowd, Israel is the only country that practices international occupation and gets away with it
If these Arab nations really cared about the Palestinians they would actually let them into their countries instead of forcing them to either stay in camps or be allowed to mix in society but with restrictions!
Do you ever read what the leaders of these Arab nations say about Jews and Israel? Do you ever read what many Muslim religious leaders say about Jews and Israel? They are indeed anti-semetic to the extreme. They don't simply have a geo-political problem with Israel, they hate Jews!and anyone who disagrees with it is quickly labelled a bigot and anti semite, which is such crap
The US does not target innocent civilians. And number two, if those Middle Eastern nation had our firepower what do you think they would be doing with it? The USA is the most peaceful superpower in the history of the world...*d* said:Now you got it. That's US foreign policy in a nut shell.
Remember Vietnam? My Lai? "We had to destroy that village in order to save it." How about Kissinger's bombing campaign in Cambodia?ocean976124 said:The US does not target innocent civilians.
I don't mean to put the US on par with the terrorists, but let's not be naive.
Wow. Sounds like you have intimate knowledge of future military planning. Do you work at the Pentagon? Can you get Sheik a 50,000 dollar mechanical pencil?ocean976124 said:You can't fight everybody at once and at the time we needed Saudi bases so we had to pressure them without saying we were going to bomb them. But in time Iraq will be where our new Middle East bases will be based out of and we can deal with the Saudis then.
Can't you hear all the Iraqi cheering? "Hooray! we get to be where the Americans will be putting all their Middle East military bases! Hooray for the Infidel and his Military Might!"
Smart.
As for the Saudis, I suggest you head on over to this link:
http://www.guerrillanews.com/intelligence/doc4097.html
The US under Bush is hardly waiting for the right time to "deal with the Saudis." The Bush family and the Saudis have been arm-in-arm for decades.
Israel's entire existence is a fabrication and unatural, this was a country born of the guilt of the Europeans, on the blood and land of Arab speaking Muslims and Christians, and when you have to quote Arab leaders who are nothing short of murderers and despots, well thats a problem that doesnt help your argument, my problem isnt with Judaism a great and noble religion but with the racist and fascist ideology of Zionism which started this whole mess in the Middle East.ocean976124 said:Israel is an occupier? No kidding and with every right to do so. While I don't agree with everything Israel does, lets have a little perspective on why they occupy these territories. They are occupying the land from which several wars were launched against them!!!!!!!! Its strategic land that Israel's enemy's used to attack Israel from. And in 1967 Israel had had enough and when they were attacked they kept pushing their enemies back until that strategic land could no longer be used against them.
If these Arab nations really cared about the Palestinians they would actually let them into their countries instead of forcing them to either stay in camps or be allowed to mix in society but with restrictions!
Do you ever read what the leaders of these Arab nations say about Jews and Israel? Do you ever read what many Muslim religious leaders say about Jews and Israel? They are indeed anti-semetic to the extreme. They don't simply have a geo-political problem with Israel, they hate Jews!
Sorry, but this is a dumb response to a dumb response. There isn't a country on earth that wasn't in some respect a "fabrication." You just need to go back in history far enough.scouser1 said:Israel's entire existence is a fabrication and unatural
