Election in Spain

4leafclover

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Jul 24, 2003
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Take them all out. Go after them with a vengeance, like Bush has. Don't fuck around with this. This is our freedom we are talking about. We just lost a lot after 911. Close their door for good. Let's not fuck around anymore, let's get these bastards.
What has happened, has happened. Diplomancy is not an option right now, kicking there ass is the only option.
 

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
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PROSTITUTION!

I'M SHOCKED AND APPALLED!
 

ocean976124

Arrogant American Idiot
Oct 28, 2002
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USA
This is a bunch of hooey. All of these attacks have anti-semetism at their core. They hate Israel and know the Israel most likely couldn't survive without backing from the US. The poverty in the middle east is caused by their own corrupt governments. So instead of pointing the finger at their own for their problems that point to Israel and the USA.
They saw that Europe wasn't exactly going along with the USA so they want to be sure to cut as many allies off from the US as possible.
Unfortunately the citizens of Spain have decided they would rather surrender to terrorism... Oh to have been with Chamberlain in 1938 when he declared he has achived "peace in our time."
 
Jan 24, 2004
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The Vegetative State
ocean976124 said:
The poverty in the middle east is caused by their own corrupt governments.
Some of which have been and continue to be supported by the US govenment - Saudi Arabia isn't a shining beacon of democrary yet, last I heard.
 

The_Jaded_One

sick of it all
The Shake said:
This simply isn't true. One only has to look at the profile of terrorists in the 1970's (Red Brigade, Baader Meinhoff, etc.) to understand that poverty is not a notable factor in terrorism.
Yes it is true. Bad examples re: Red Brigade, Baader Meinhoff. Both were left-wing revolutionary groups.

The terrorists groups in the Middle East are so large/powerful because of mass poverty and despair. Terrorist leaders/governments just redirect/channel that anger through war and terror.
 

The Shake

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The_Jaded_One said:
Bad examples re: Red Brigade, Baader Meinhoff. Both were left-wing revolutionary groups.
How are they bad examples? Left-wing revolutionary groups can't be terrorists?
 

The_Jaded_One

sick of it all
The Shake said:
How are they bad examples? Left-wing revolutionary groups can't be terrorists?
Communism and left-wing revolutionary groups are borne from a hatred of capitalism and desparity of wealth. Exactly the environment, I commented on, that is conducive to breeding terrorism. It doesn't back your point.
 

4leafclover

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Again, get rid of them, terrorists at all costs. Bush is an arogant prick. We need an arogant prick. Stand up to them, bury them, don't give in to them. If not, they will still be there.
 

The Shake

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The_Jaded_One said:
Communism and left-wing revolutionary groups are borne from a hatred of capitalism and desparity of wealth. Exactly the environment, I commented on, that is conducive to breeding terrorism. It doesn't back your point.
So your point is that the mere existence of poverty and/or disparity in wealth causes terrorism (since the left-wing revolutionaries that I cited were typically university-educated and came from privileged backgrounds), as opposed to the personal experiences of the terrorists?
 

The_Jaded_One

sick of it all
The Shake said:
So your point is that the mere existence of poverty and/or disparity in wealth causes terrorism (since the left-wing revolutionaries that I cited were typically university-educated and came from privileged backgrounds), as opposed to the personal experiences of the terrorists?
Is that what I said? I don't think so Shakey.

Me

For terrorism to take hold you need poverty, hopelessness, and a sense of despair. You also need other conditions but that is what starts the ball rolling.
 

The_Jaded_One

sick of it all
4leafclover said:
Again, get rid of them, terrorists at all costs. Bush is an arogant prick. We need an arogant prick. Stand up to them, bury them, don't give in to them. If not, they will still be there.
You simply can't be serious. How is your mentality any different than the terrorists that you supposedly hate?
 

johnhenrygalt

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Jan 7, 2002
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Prior to 11-M Rajoy's PP was leading in the polls by 5 points, despite 90% of Spaniards opposing the PP's stance on Iraq.

After 11-M, the PP still polled over 37%. In other words, even a majority of the PP voters opposed the Iraq war.

Could this mean that for most Spaniards, Iraq was, is and remains a side issue of limited impact? Contrary to popular belief on this side of the Atlantic, Spanish and European politics do not revolve around USA issues.

Remember that in the municipal elections held last year, the PP support flagged only slightly, despite the 90% opposition to Aznar's Iraq adventure. The reason of course is that Iraq is not a major issue in Spanish politics.

As for the 11-M bombings themselves, the Spanish people were more upset about the Government's erroneous identification of the ETA as the perpertrators. Either (a) the government got it wrong or (b) knew all along it was Al-Qaeda, but lied to the population.

As for the impact that the bombings had on the election, it is intructive to look at the actual results. Madrid, Castilla-La Mancha and Castilla y León voted majoritarily for the PP. The PSOE drew much of its support from Andalucia, Aragon, Extra Madura and Cataluna. Thus the city directly affected by the terrorist bombings, as well as the immediately surrounding regions, voted for the incumbent government. The greatest support for the Socialists was in Andalucia, which has been virtually untouched by terrorism, either the ETA or the AQ variety.

The PP held power for 8 years since 1996. They applied a policy of fiscal austerity to ensure that Spain qualified for entry into the Eurozone. Like most democracies, after two terms the electorate wants a change. While last weeks polls showed a 3-5% lead for the PP, over the last 15 months, polls showed the two parties in a dead heat.

The PSOE has a different policy than the PP on Iraq, but there is no reason that they will do anything differently in the struggle against Al-Qaeda. On 12 March, 11 million Spaniards took to the streets to denounce terrorism. It is ludicrous to think that a PSOE Zapatero government will not vigourously pursue the terrorists.
 
Jan 24, 2004
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The Vegetative State
The Shake said:
So your point is that the mere existence of poverty and/or disparity in wealth causes terrorism (since the left-wing revolutionaries that I cited were typically university-educated and came from privileged backgrounds), as opposed to the personal experiences of the terrorists?
Gotta side with Shake on this one, Jaded. There is a huge difference between the people who actually experience poverty and the dilatants - like Osama - who exploit their frustration.

How's this for a paradox - without poverty terrorism would never find a wide popular base, but terrorists themselves - like Osama - rarely speak in practical terms about alieviating poverty. They are far more likely to speak in terms of the millenium of their particular brand of fundamentalism - Islamist, Marxist, Christianist, what have you.

PS - Good post, johnhenrygalt.
 

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
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johnhenry -

Great post! Viva Espana!
 

ocean976124

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Oct 28, 2002
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Drunken Master said:
Some of which have been and continue to be supported by the US govenment - Saudi Arabia isn't a shining beacon of democrary yet, last I heard.
If Saudi Arabia turned into a democracy we wouldn't be opposed to it.
 

Bushpilot

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Aug 4, 2003
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The_Jaded_One and other liberals on this board may want to give my comments a pass because, unlike them, I'm not a liberal, and therefore have a poor grasp of stuff that I don't know anything about. So, here goes:

Spaniards have chosen to take the side of neutrality when there was a gun to their head - a naturally human, but strategically unwise, choice, as readers of history will understand.

Appeasement is one of the calling cards of the “root cause” crowd. However, as proven time and again, appeasement never works – rather, it simply delays the inevitable. One of the 20th century’s more famous (infamous?) appeasers was British PM Neville Chamberlain. I suggest the board’s liberals read up on Neville’s record – it’s pretty disgraceful; World War II may have been significantly less destructive (even avoidable) had Chamberlain given Hitler the correct signals at Munich in 1938.

Drunken Master claims that Spain’s election was “a stunning victory for democracy. 90% of Spain's population disagreed with Aznar's decision to send troops to Iraq.”

A stunning victory for Socialism (not to mention al-Qaeda) maybe, but hardly a stunning victory for democracy when so many of the electorate were running scared because they thought there was “a gun to their head”. The only hope for DM is that he was living up to his handle when he submitted his comment: otherwise, if he’s Canadian, his future is clearly toast.

Speaking of WWII, Americans overwhelming refused to become involved when war broke out in Europe, September, 1939; the peoples’ rationale was that Europe’s stupid conflicts were not in America’s national interest. Public opinion in America was quite valid, to a point – given WWI’s carnage; the prevailing sentiment was “why should we engage in another Euro conflict to rescue the French from themselves.”

The US government’s Administrative branch, headed by FDR, saw things a bit differently. As an aside, DM: this is why democracies occasionally elect “leaders” to make the unpopular choices that the average-man-on-the-street is incapable of making (cf. the dis-graced Jean Chretian , Canadian PM from 1993-2003.)

Roosevelt understood at once both the passions of the population as well as the longer-term implications of Hitler’s European ambitions; he knew that he had to bide his time despite America’s generous (albeit clandestine) support of the war-effort in Europe.

FDR's, and the world’s, moment arrived on Sunday, December 7, 1941. FDR's response to the Pearl Harbour outrage was "to let loose the dogs of war" to recapture civility from the out-riders of civilization: Saxon and Nipponese war-mongers.

al-Qaeda's next.
 

Bababooie

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Jun 1, 2002
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We need leaders, not a full democracy

Good Points BushPilot, I only wish Churchhill could be here to weigh in with his opinion. Although I doubt the Lib's would agree with him either. In retrospec what would the world be like today if Churchill and Roosevelt didn't want to upset the Nazi's or evne the Japanese. Everyone seems to forget that the terroists are the agressors in this mess and the agressor sets the rules.
 

Don

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Aug 23, 2001
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scouser1 said:
i am gonna have to agree with Drunken Master on this one, the vast majority of the population of Spain were against their country's involvement with Georgie Jr's war
That is why that terriorist attack was so wrong. Targeting a civilian population where the vast majority of the population was against the war. If they attacked some US barracks or some US target then it would still be bad but somewhat understandable. But it was clear from the start that most of the Spanish people were against it. Then after the elections it made the terriorists think that because that worked, let's do it more. I was a bit shocked that the Spanish people didn't rally like the Americans, especially because they didn't support the war and to have them attacked shows how screwy these terriorist bombers are.

People go how might is not right and the US is solving nothing by doing an eye for an eye but then when terriorists do an eye for an eye, it is understandable.

Both sides are wrong. The US for antagonizing, terriorists for their atatcks. Same in the mid-east, both Israeli AND Palestinians are both wrong. :(

btw - I didn't not agree with the war in Iraq.
 
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