"Don't complain Mohammed, we've all been caricatured here."
- Thread starter rogerstaubach
- Start date
Right. Jews are still waiting for that prophet. Christians think he already came as Jesus and that was it. Muslims think anotehr one came as Muhammed and that was it. Then you have groups like the Mormons who think some dude Joseph Smith was the last and so on......El_Mariachi said:
You can believe in someone and still poke fun.
Who's Your Buddy?
Well, I guess that ends the chances of seeing the Mohammed version of this then:
http://www.stuff-o-rama.com/buddychrist.jpg
Silly little Muslims...no sense of humour.....
Well, I guess that ends the chances of seeing the Mohammed version of this then:
http://www.stuff-o-rama.com/buddychrist.jpg
Silly little Muslims...no sense of humour.....
If the religous leaders in the Muslim world would stand up to AQ and say hey you guys are out to lunch for justifying terrorism using Islam nobody would take AQ seriously anymore.
OBL throws around religous terms and Fatwas like there is no tomorrow even though he is no Mufti.
The religious leaders in Islam should get off their a**es and clearly denounce AQ. Imo the cartoons are perfect for pointing out the hypocrisy that is going on right now in the middle east.
OBL throws around religous terms and Fatwas like there is no tomorrow even though he is no Mufti.
The religious leaders in Islam should get off their a**es and clearly denounce AQ. Imo the cartoons are perfect for pointing out the hypocrisy that is going on right now in the middle east.
another view
For some intelligent comentary on this affair:
Here is the letter of our Muslim reader, who lives in Canada:
Even in a democratic society with strong protections for freedom of speech and press, there are still limits that must be imposed. I have viewed all the cartoons and in terms of content, only two of them seem to me to be particulary problematic. Let me first say that I am a Muslim but I grew up and still live in North America, so I am accustomed to seeing newspaper cartoons that satirize every imaginable subject. Also, while there is a general prohibition among Muslims of graphically depicting the Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) and the other Prophets, such as Moses, Abraham and Jesus (peace be on them), that prohibition has never been absolute and in certain periods there have been images of the Prophets, although their faces are either featureless or covered by a veil). Of course those pictures were made to illustrate religious texts, not to criticize the Prophets.
Personally, the simple artistic depiction of the Prophet Muhammad by a non-Muslim does not particulary bother me, any more than the depiction of Jesus or the other prophets in, for example Renaissance Art. The two cartoons that I personally find offensive are the ones that depict Muhammad as a knife-wielding terrorist and as wearing a turban that is in fact a bomb that bears the Islamic creed, “There is no divinity but God and Muhammad is his prophet”.
Of course, I have seen in my lifetime many editorial cartoons that I personally found to be offensive and almost all of them were about subjects far removed from Islam. A cartoonist has the right to draw and I have the right to be offended. Generally, nothing more needs to be said or done. However, as a society, we must take into account the sensibilities of others.
The Danish case is particularly interesting because the intention of the newspaper was to stir up controversy. The intention was to offend Muslims. The newspaper set out to provoke and they succeeded. It is strange that having succeeded they and their supporters are so incensed over the reaction. Contrast the Danish publisher’s approach with that of U.S. newspapers. In the U.S., freedom of speech and press is almost absolute. Even so, on a few occasions in recent years when an editorial cartoon has elicited a large critical outcry, in most cases, the newspaper has apologized to offended readers, pointing out that the intention of the artist was to express an opinion, that the freedom to express an opinion is guaranteed and must be protected but that in hindsight it is apparent that the same message could have been conveyed without unnecessarily insulting a significant number of readers.
In your article, you refer to Madame Louise Arbour, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, who is quoted as saying the cartoons were “an unacceptable disrespect”. Madame Arbour is a Canadian and she was for many years a respected judge in Canada. It is likely that her opinion in this matter is coloured by her experience as a Canadian jurist. Here in Canada, we have for many years had to reconcile a VERY multi-cultural society with our constitutional protections on freedom of speech and press. As a result, our basic freedoms are not absolute. We have a constitutional principal that basic rights are “subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.”
Two of those reasonable limitations concern “blasphemous libel” and “hate propaganda”. The criminal statute outlawing hate propaganda bars the WILLFUL promotion of hatred, which is defined as “communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group.” The law allows for certain defences. A person cannot, for example, be convicted “if he establishes that the statements communicated were true” or “if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit [thus unlikely to cause public disorder], and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true.” Furthermore, no conviction can be obtained if the statement was to express in good faith an opinon on a religious matter, UNLESS that expression contravenes the blasphemous libel statute.
The blasphemous libel statute has rarely been used in Canada, but it remains in full force and effect. Under it, people can still argue against and criticize religious beliefs and persons but only with tact and circumspection. The statute says that “No person shall be convicted of an offence under this section for expressing in good faith and in decent language, or attempting to establish by argument used in good faith and conveyed in decent language, an opinion on a religious subject.”
What I am trying to point out here is that in Canadian law, our Parliament has protected freedom of speech on the one hand and sought, on the other hand, to limit any disruption of the social fabric by outlawing speech that is so intemperate that it could lead to public disorder or violence.
Of course, another aspect of the Danish affair is that the cartoons were not published in a vacuum. They were published against the backdrop of widespread anti-Muslim prejudice and of incendiary statements likely to provoke hate against Muslims in Denmark. The decision to publish them came only a few months after Her Majesty Queen Margrethe II of Denmark was quoted in the London Telegraph as saying: “We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance.”
The Queen of Denmark (who is also titular Head of the State Lutheran Chruch) has called on her subjects to oppose Islam and to display intolerance even in the face of public criticism. (She obviously is unaware of the respectful position of most Christian churches, including her own, on Islam). If Her Majesty Elizabeth II, the Queen of Canada (or her Governor General) ever said such words, there would be a constitutional crisis and calls for the Sovereign herself to be charged with inciting race hatred under the Canada Criminal Code.
In a recent private letter to me, a Danish Lutheran theologian and social activist, had, in part, this to say:
“We are facing a difficult time in Denmark right now. Many people and consequently also many politicians are worried and afraid of the presence of Muslims in Denmark. We have about 4 % of the population which is Muslim today. In the 90s the rightist populist party ‘Dansk Folekparti’ (Danish People's Party) campaigned against the Muslims and other immigrants, but after 9-11 (2001) other parties joined in the chorus and at the election in November 2001 it was the main theme. The press from the beginning added fuel to the fire by focusing almost entirely on the problems with Muslims/immigrants and has presented social issues involving immigrants from a religious/Muslim angle. Finally our dear Queen has joined the populist chorus by her very problematic statements concerning some of her subjects, the Muslims!
(...) A number of individual members of the Lutheran church, including pastors and sometimes also bishops (and my humble self), have again and again spoken up against this campaign against Muslims. (...)
Nine of the ten dioceses in the Lutheran Church in Denmark have set up an organization called ‘Folkekirke og Religionsmøde’ (Folk church and Religious Encounter, or Church and Dialogue). I was the chairman for this organization for the first 3 years and we have worked to create a positive awareness among congregations concerning their Muslim neighbours. We have established a national dialogue forum with leaders of Muslim groups, and we are publishing materials to educate the congregations.”
Those, like yourself, who speak out in favour of freedom of speech and press should also speak out against the raising tide in Denmark of racial and religious intolerance. The Danish cartoon affair is NOT just a test of basic freedoms, it is a concerted attack on a visible minority and that attack is being waged not only by incendiary cartoonists but also by government officials included the Queen of Denmark herself.
For some intelligent comentary on this affair:
Here is the letter of our Muslim reader, who lives in Canada:
Even in a democratic society with strong protections for freedom of speech and press, there are still limits that must be imposed. I have viewed all the cartoons and in terms of content, only two of them seem to me to be particulary problematic. Let me first say that I am a Muslim but I grew up and still live in North America, so I am accustomed to seeing newspaper cartoons that satirize every imaginable subject. Also, while there is a general prohibition among Muslims of graphically depicting the Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) and the other Prophets, such as Moses, Abraham and Jesus (peace be on them), that prohibition has never been absolute and in certain periods there have been images of the Prophets, although their faces are either featureless or covered by a veil). Of course those pictures were made to illustrate religious texts, not to criticize the Prophets.
Personally, the simple artistic depiction of the Prophet Muhammad by a non-Muslim does not particulary bother me, any more than the depiction of Jesus or the other prophets in, for example Renaissance Art. The two cartoons that I personally find offensive are the ones that depict Muhammad as a knife-wielding terrorist and as wearing a turban that is in fact a bomb that bears the Islamic creed, “There is no divinity but God and Muhammad is his prophet”.
Of course, I have seen in my lifetime many editorial cartoons that I personally found to be offensive and almost all of them were about subjects far removed from Islam. A cartoonist has the right to draw and I have the right to be offended. Generally, nothing more needs to be said or done. However, as a society, we must take into account the sensibilities of others.
The Danish case is particularly interesting because the intention of the newspaper was to stir up controversy. The intention was to offend Muslims. The newspaper set out to provoke and they succeeded. It is strange that having succeeded they and their supporters are so incensed over the reaction. Contrast the Danish publisher’s approach with that of U.S. newspapers. In the U.S., freedom of speech and press is almost absolute. Even so, on a few occasions in recent years when an editorial cartoon has elicited a large critical outcry, in most cases, the newspaper has apologized to offended readers, pointing out that the intention of the artist was to express an opinion, that the freedom to express an opinion is guaranteed and must be protected but that in hindsight it is apparent that the same message could have been conveyed without unnecessarily insulting a significant number of readers.
In your article, you refer to Madame Louise Arbour, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, who is quoted as saying the cartoons were “an unacceptable disrespect”. Madame Arbour is a Canadian and she was for many years a respected judge in Canada. It is likely that her opinion in this matter is coloured by her experience as a Canadian jurist. Here in Canada, we have for many years had to reconcile a VERY multi-cultural society with our constitutional protections on freedom of speech and press. As a result, our basic freedoms are not absolute. We have a constitutional principal that basic rights are “subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.”
Two of those reasonable limitations concern “blasphemous libel” and “hate propaganda”. The criminal statute outlawing hate propaganda bars the WILLFUL promotion of hatred, which is defined as “communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group.” The law allows for certain defences. A person cannot, for example, be convicted “if he establishes that the statements communicated were true” or “if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit [thus unlikely to cause public disorder], and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true.” Furthermore, no conviction can be obtained if the statement was to express in good faith an opinon on a religious matter, UNLESS that expression contravenes the blasphemous libel statute.
The blasphemous libel statute has rarely been used in Canada, but it remains in full force and effect. Under it, people can still argue against and criticize religious beliefs and persons but only with tact and circumspection. The statute says that “No person shall be convicted of an offence under this section for expressing in good faith and in decent language, or attempting to establish by argument used in good faith and conveyed in decent language, an opinion on a religious subject.”
What I am trying to point out here is that in Canadian law, our Parliament has protected freedom of speech on the one hand and sought, on the other hand, to limit any disruption of the social fabric by outlawing speech that is so intemperate that it could lead to public disorder or violence.
Of course, another aspect of the Danish affair is that the cartoons were not published in a vacuum. They were published against the backdrop of widespread anti-Muslim prejudice and of incendiary statements likely to provoke hate against Muslims in Denmark. The decision to publish them came only a few months after Her Majesty Queen Margrethe II of Denmark was quoted in the London Telegraph as saying: “We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance.”
The Queen of Denmark (who is also titular Head of the State Lutheran Chruch) has called on her subjects to oppose Islam and to display intolerance even in the face of public criticism. (She obviously is unaware of the respectful position of most Christian churches, including her own, on Islam). If Her Majesty Elizabeth II, the Queen of Canada (or her Governor General) ever said such words, there would be a constitutional crisis and calls for the Sovereign herself to be charged with inciting race hatred under the Canada Criminal Code.
In a recent private letter to me, a Danish Lutheran theologian and social activist, had, in part, this to say:
“We are facing a difficult time in Denmark right now. Many people and consequently also many politicians are worried and afraid of the presence of Muslims in Denmark. We have about 4 % of the population which is Muslim today. In the 90s the rightist populist party ‘Dansk Folekparti’ (Danish People's Party) campaigned against the Muslims and other immigrants, but after 9-11 (2001) other parties joined in the chorus and at the election in November 2001 it was the main theme. The press from the beginning added fuel to the fire by focusing almost entirely on the problems with Muslims/immigrants and has presented social issues involving immigrants from a religious/Muslim angle. Finally our dear Queen has joined the populist chorus by her very problematic statements concerning some of her subjects, the Muslims!
(...) A number of individual members of the Lutheran church, including pastors and sometimes also bishops (and my humble self), have again and again spoken up against this campaign against Muslims. (...)
Nine of the ten dioceses in the Lutheran Church in Denmark have set up an organization called ‘Folkekirke og Religionsmøde’ (Folk church and Religious Encounter, or Church and Dialogue). I was the chairman for this organization for the first 3 years and we have worked to create a positive awareness among congregations concerning their Muslim neighbours. We have established a national dialogue forum with leaders of Muslim groups, and we are publishing materials to educate the congregations.”
Those, like yourself, who speak out in favour of freedom of speech and press should also speak out against the raising tide in Denmark of racial and religious intolerance. The Danish cartoon affair is NOT just a test of basic freedoms, it is a concerted attack on a visible minority and that attack is being waged not only by incendiary cartoonists but also by government officials included the Queen of Denmark herself.
max,
I have the opinion that those cartoons whould not have been published. People should know better. People should understand what a sensitive issue it is. People need to be sensitive and respect what other people feel is sacred. With that said, what is happenening right now so disturbs me for the following reasons:
-I am stunned and disappointed how badly a majority of Muslims took it, even Muslim leaders
-It annoys me that muslims talk about lack of sensitivity and respect... such as when it comes from the mouth of supporters of Hamas and others (like the President of Iran) who likes to talk about the destruction of the Zionists, they are pigs, etc... To me, it smacks hypocracy
-Many other religions get ridiculed an a more daily basis but do not cause such a stir (Christianity is probably #1)
-Many liberal media, comics have kept somewhat quiet on the matter in efforts to show sensitivity to the issue (they are scared).... same people who ridicule the religious right in America and ridicule them and scream "freedom of speech" when the religious right protest negative depictions of Christianity and Jesus in the media and arts (they are not scared to make fun of Christians). Makes you realize that as bad as the religious right is in America, they don't come close to what you see right now.
...oh, almost forgot - the famous "don't be ignorant and judge all muslims the same for the actions of a few fundamentalists". The actions of a few newspapers in Europe call for the burning of flags of that country and burning embassies.
As a guy who always supported free speech and freedoms af most social liberties. This really bothers me. The GOP bugs me because of their social conservatism. So as you can tell, this bothers me a whole lot worse.
I have the opinion that those cartoons whould not have been published. People should know better. People should understand what a sensitive issue it is. People need to be sensitive and respect what other people feel is sacred. With that said, what is happenening right now so disturbs me for the following reasons:
-I am stunned and disappointed how badly a majority of Muslims took it, even Muslim leaders
-It annoys me that muslims talk about lack of sensitivity and respect... such as when it comes from the mouth of supporters of Hamas and others (like the President of Iran) who likes to talk about the destruction of the Zionists, they are pigs, etc... To me, it smacks hypocracy
-Many other religions get ridiculed an a more daily basis but do not cause such a stir (Christianity is probably #1)
-Many liberal media, comics have kept somewhat quiet on the matter in efforts to show sensitivity to the issue (they are scared).... same people who ridicule the religious right in America and ridicule them and scream "freedom of speech" when the religious right protest negative depictions of Christianity and Jesus in the media and arts (they are not scared to make fun of Christians). Makes you realize that as bad as the religious right is in America, they don't come close to what you see right now.
...oh, almost forgot - the famous "don't be ignorant and judge all muslims the same for the actions of a few fundamentalists". The actions of a few newspapers in Europe call for the burning of flags of that country and burning embassies.
As a guy who always supported free speech and freedoms af most social liberties. This really bothers me. The GOP bugs me because of their social conservatism. So as you can tell, this bothers me a whole lot worse.
But Gawd (hence my spelling and nickname) in general is fictional... it's not just "theirs" as you so put it.Oil Please said:
What a fucking hypocrite. The Arab press has been printing its anti-Semitic cartoons for years, and not a peep out of these Muslims. Pot meet kettle.maxweber said:
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
Messengers need faces. Today FEDX and UPS are the worlds two biggest. A messenger of God may well be dipictedt as a UPS driver without becomming offensive.Preferred said:
Are you infering that some of these folks are thin slinned unstable people who would kill anyone to prove a point?Preferred said:
On the lighter side of thing...
About 800 people protested in Pakistan's capital, Islamabad, chanting "Death to Denmark" and "Death to France." They also chanted "Death to America," although the cartoons have not been published in the U.S.
Gotta love how the US is so hated in the region that no rally is complete without call for their death!
About 800 people protested in Pakistan's capital, Islamabad, chanting "Death to Denmark" and "Death to France." They also chanted "Death to America," although the cartoons have not been published in the U.S.
Gotta love how the US is so hated in the region that no rally is complete without call for their death!
Lets not be too hasty here, the Muslim loonies may finally have a good idea. This death to France thing seems like it could have legs and become a doable concept. Must drive ole Pierre nuts to think that no matter how much they suck up to the Muslims and try to piss on America when it gets down to it the Middle East nutbars lump all the west in the same boat. OH OH now I'll get in trouble with TOV for suggesting that those fine paragons of virtue in the ME may harbour damaging racial stereotypes just like we are accused of.
AQ was calling for the death of France when France was trying to ban headscarves.LancsLad said:
Be real - France does not suck up to Muslims. They suck up to themselves like everyone else. Note how many of the immigrant Muslim groups are treated in France. They opposed the war because many French firms had contracts with the Saddam government.
Maybe, maybe not. But I'm sure it gives many of them a good chuckle as they likely have enough of a sense of humour to appreciate the joke. Besides, I'll wager that "Buddy Christ" probably adorns more Christian dashboards than those of non-Christians. Again, I'm just pointing out the double standard here, being an objective happy heathen myself.Preferred said:
