Cyclists need to obey the law

[raydeon]

I wasn't aware that you had to have a bell on your car.

This is a stupid answer, in line with the rest of your comments. Bells for bicycles are a device to warn other that you are approaching and want to pass. Cars have what is called a horn for that. Same law.

Note: The law for bicycle states that you have to have a warning device, not necessarily a bell. Could be a trumpet, a air horn, etc.
So this is not a special laws for bicycle.

What's next fuji?

 

[Questor]

As for your bike lane: that's the problem right there: 3 metres? Holy shit, how big a bike are you riding? The whole cherry beach/goodman trail isn't half that wide and it's two lanes!!! Most bike lanes in this city are about a metre wide and that is ample for SINGLE FILE riding.

You need about 3 metres...a metre and a half for each direction. I'm not sure what the official guidelines say about required width of a bike lane, but I am pretty sure it is more than 1 metre. Not with car doors opening on one side and speeding cars on another side. A metre wide bike lane would be like Death Alley. Unless there was a concrete curb on both sides, and even then, there would be no room for a fast cyclist to pass a slow cyclist.

Now in the downtown core it will be a little more trying but in Mississauga and elsewhere where the planners were smart and made the streets 2 miles wide, there's plenty of room.

I don't do too much riding in 'Sauga or the other outlying 'burbs, but I don't believe there is much potential for biking there. Distances are just too great. Whether one is going to the mall 5 or 6 km away, or commuting from Brampton to Vaughan to go to work. Sure, you'll get some cyclists, but only a select few who have the time and physical conditioning to take on the distance.

I could also see a better idea is instead of putting them on major streets (like the danforth) put them 1 block north or south.

Well, in theory, that is a good suggestion. In practice, one block north or south of a major street like Danforth or Bloor will not be a through street. And when the route crosses a major N/S street, there will be no traffic light and no way for cyclists to cross in an efficient manner. No, what your idea suggests is that cyclists are second rate and the car is king. Your bias against the St. Clair dedicated streetcar line is evidence of the same thinking. That kind of thinking has gotten us into this mess.

I know, I have my own bias, which is that biking is a clean, cheap and healthy form of transportation and it needs to be given much more priority here in Toronto, along with public transportation. Unfortunately, that means the car gets a demotion.

How about if we put the cars one block N or S, let them negotiate the labyrinth of streets. I know, you don't like that one much, do you? And I know the majority stands with you. But it will take radical change like that, essentially a radical move away from car culture, to make our cities more habitable, environmentally friendly, and less dependent on petroleum. You know, I think the first step towards that will be to take away the street parking. All that space being taken up on prime transportation land. The parking needs to be moved underground and/or onto lots behind the buildings as is the case on many blocks along Danforth/Bloor.

 

[hunter001]

I know, I have my own bias, which is that biking is a clean, cheap and healthy form of transportation and it needs to be given much more priority here in Toronto, along with public transportation. Unfortunately, that means the car gets a demotion.

I agree with most of what you said. One thing you forgot to mention is that for the majority of the Toronto population cycling is seasonal. With that said I think the city does need to get rid of the cars in the core that are parked for 8 hour and are only used to shuttle one person to their job.

Either way it will take decades for any real change to happen.

 

[tboy]

Jesus, make some suggestions and everyone starts getting insulting? WTF?

I mean seriously,

St Clair: Yes, they screwed it up when they put in those dedicated car lines. Either make it car free or not, don't make it stupid. HOw can I say this? Well at Avenue road (which is a main way to get north to the 401) there used to be a left turn lane 15 cars long. Now? It is 3 cars long and when it is full, NO one can get by. THat is stupid. So now you get 75 cars sitting idling while trying to get through that intersection. Oh yeah, you also have the occasionaly bus, ambulance, firetruck etc that get caught there too. I thought we were supposed to make things more efficient?

As for danforth: Well, in many cases there ARE traffic lights on those streets when the cross major north/south roads and a lot less traffic for all the bikes to worry about which is the number one fear among the bicycle riders in this thread.

Let me ask you something questor? Do you own a car? If so, STFU.

Move parking underground? WHY? why not just eliminate parking in the city period. Why not just stop making cars?

OH, let's just change 50% of all roads into bike lanes. Then when it takes you 12 hrs to get to work in the morning because there is no way to get in and the bike routes are empty in the middle of december you can blame your inane ideas for THAT.

Yes, I agree we have to move away from the POV but until we do? We have to have a compromise and since the vast majority of the city, and people who live and work here, AND the TTC I might add need road space 12 months of the year, BIKES take second place.

Now once again, if you can come on here and tell me YOU personally ride your bike 5 days a week to and from work 12 months of the year, then STFU with the snide comments. Except for C.u.n.ter I've been civil to everyone here.

 

[fuji]

The point you fail to see is: YOU ARE FORCING HIM TO EXECUTE A DANGEROUS MANEUVER by forcing him to move completely into another lane when it isn't necessary to do so.

You have no idea how the law works, do you?

If a faster vehicle comes up behind a slower vehicle the law requires the faster vehicle to SLOW DOWN. It is actually ILLEGAL to pass unless it is safe to do so. The slower vehicle is not forcing you to do anything--if you pull out and pass when it is unsafe then it is your reckless driving that is endangering people and you deserve to have your license suspended.

Of course it is NOW, the laws prevent bicyclists from doing anything to purposely enrage drivers.

Cyclists do not take control of the lane in order to enrage drivers. Cyclists take the lane in order to ensure safety, and that is not only legal, but ENCOURAGED by the law.

The law requires that slower vehicles eventually pull right and allow a faster vehicle to pass, but leaves it ENTIRELY up to the judgement of the slower vehicle to decide when, if ever, it is safe to do that, or whether it is necessary.

If you try and swerve around a cyclist who is controlling the lane for his or her own safety then you are a lawbreaking reckless driver and you have no business being on the road.

 

[hunter001]

I've been civil to everyone here.

Or maybe you are self aborted t*** and you don't understand when you aren't being civil. (Like when you could get 10 available females to dance with you... Even though "they knew you weren't a creep"... lmfao

 

[tboy]

LOL@fuji.......yeah, there's the law then there's what really goes on.....

For one that quotes the LAW you obviously have no problem breaking it when it suits you......so since you're so law abiding, do you go to a local police station after every ride on the sidewalk and ask to be ticketed?

LOL so now a bicycle IS a vehicle? So what is it? a vehicle with the same rights and priviledges as a motor vehicle or not? You can't just change your mind whenever it suits you best......

 

[tboy]

Or maybe you are self aborted t*** and you don't understand when you aren't being civil. (Like when you could get 10 available females to dance with you... Even though "they knew you weren't a creep"... lmfao

Keep it up ........

 

[fuji]

This is a stupid answer, in line with the rest of your comments. Bells for bicycles are a device to warn other that you are approaching and want to pass. Cars have what is called a horn for that. Same law.

That was just one example of a difference between a car and a bike under the HTA. There are lots, and lots, and lots of differences so there is certainly enormous precedent for having exemptions and differences in the law governing the use of roadways by bicycles versus cars.

Here are some of the other differnces:

-- You do not need a license to ride a bike
-- Bikes do not require the same sort sof lights as cars
-- There are different requirements around brakes
-- Cars are allowed on highways but bikes are not
-- Bikes are allowed on sidewalks but cars are not (depending on wheel size of the bike)
-- Cyclists have to wear helmets but drivers do not
-- There are special rules relating to bicycles and pedestrian crosswalks
-- There are special rules governing how cars must pass bicycles, different from rules for other vehicles

Given all the sections of the act which treat bicycles different from cars there's ample precedent for an amendment creating "153(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to bicycles or motor assisted bicycles on highways on which the posted speed limit is 40 kilometers per hour or less."

Your claim was that there is no precedent for the HTA treating bicycles and cars differently. There is.

 

[fuji]

LOL so now a bicycle IS a vehicle? So what is it? a vehicle with the same rights and priviledges as a motor vehicle or not? You can't just change your mind whenever it suits you best......

My claim is that the category "vehicle" is too broad to be useful. The HTA seems to agree. It distinguishes between "motor vehicle", "motor assisted bicycle", "motorcycle", and "bicycle" (and many others) and has different rules for each one.

 

[alexmst]

The city is covered in snow and ice for half the year...I am glad.

 

[tboy]

My claim is that the category "vehicle" is too broad to be useful. The HTA seems to agree. It distinguishes between "motor vehicle", "motor assisted bicycle", "motorcycle", and "bicycle" (and many others) and has different rules for each one.

Whenever it suits you......... but here's an interesting argument: since the HTA denotes vehicles that do not meet a minimum speed limit are not allowed on the roads, then by your argument shouldn't that also apply to bicycles? The city of toronto has a standard speed limit of 40 kph on most major thoroughfares and it is expected that any vehicle travelling on those roads be able to meet the flow of traffic. In fact, I believe if your vehicle does not meet the minimum speed requirement you need a slow moving vehicle plate.

So, I know what you're going to say, that bicycles are exempt from those laws as well?

There is also a law on the books that enables a police officer to ticket someone for going too slow and impeding the flow of traffic. But wait, you're going to say bicycles should be exempt from those laws too right?

 

[Questor]

Jesus, make some suggestions and everyone starts getting insulting? WTF?

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. I just looked back over the last few posts, mine in particular, and I don't see any insulting, except for your remarks.

I mean seriously,

St Clair: Yes, they screwed it up when they put in those dedicated car lines. Either make it car free or not, don't make it stupid. HOw can I say this? Well at Avenue road (which is a main way to get north to the 401) there used to be a left turn lane 15 cars long. Now? It is 3 cars long and when it is full, NO one can get by. THat is stupid. So now you get 75 cars sitting idling while trying to get through that intersection. Oh yeah, you also have the occasionaly bus, ambulance, firetruck etc that get caught there too. I thought we were supposed to make things more efficient?

Well, I see your point. What you really mean is that they screwed it up for motorists. For sure it is very frustrating to sit idling in a line of 75 cars. I do drive a car every week or two and I find it to be a very frustrating experience. So I look for alternatives. The point is to get people out of cars. As long as we design communities that make people dependent on cars, we have to build more and more highways to move them around, and life becomes more and more intolerable. Fortunately, we have been moving back away from that mentality in the last few years.

As for danforth: Well, in many cases there ARE traffic lights on those streets when the cross major north/south roads and a lot less traffic for all the bikes to worry about which is the number one fear among the bicycle riders in this thread.

Let me ask you something questor? Do you own a car? If so, STFU.

Well, as I said in my earlier post, it is really a labyrinth of streets. Its not really a viable alternative.

Move parking underground? WHY? why not just eliminate parking in the city period. Why not just stop making cars?

OH, let's just change 50% of all roads into bike lanes. Then when it takes you 12 hrs to get to work in the morning because there is no way to get in and the bike routes are empty in the middle of december you can blame your inane ideas for THAT.

Yes, I agree we have to move away from the POV but until we do? We have to have a compromise and since the vast majority of the city, and people who live and work here, AND the TTC I might add need road space 12 months of the year, BIKES take second place.

Now once again, if you can come on here and tell me YOU personally ride your bike 5 days a week to and from work 12 months of the year, then STFU with the snide comments. Except for C.u.n.ter I've been civil to everyone here.

LOL well, it is not me that is advocating change on such a scale. It would cause far too much disruption to people's lives. So your comment is rather silly.

And actually I ride my bike closer to 6 days a week, 12 months a year. But I don't know what that has to do with my use of this forum to express my opinion. And I don't know what snide comments you are referring to. Unless not agreeing with you is making a snide comment.

Even though it is clear we do not agree on this subject and I do not expect to change your mind on the issue, my intent was to exchange ideas so that the issue could be examined by all those interested in reading the thread. Now you've come up the the "STFU" comment for the second time. I think it is pretty clear from comments like this, the remark about assaulting bike riders, and how bikers "enrage" motorists that you have some serious rage issues. I wish you luck in finding some help for that.

 

[red]

Cycling and The Law
A bicycle is a vehicle under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act (HTA). This means that, as a bicyclist, you have the same rights and responsibilities to obey all traffic laws as other road users. Cyclists charged for disobeying traffic laws will be subject to a minimum set fine and a Victim Surcharge fine of $20.00 for most offences (please note set fines below are subject to change).

The following are key sections of the HTA concerning cyclists.

HTA 144/136 - Traffic signals and signs
stop for red lights and stop signs and comply with all other signs. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 153 - One-ways streets
ride in the designated direction on one-way streets. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 147 - Slow moving traffic travel on right side
any vehicle moving slower than the normal traffic speed should drive in the right-hand lane, or as close as practicable to the right edge of the road except when preparing to turn left or when passing another vehicle. For cyclists, you must ride far enough out from the curb to maintain a straight line, clear of sewer grates, debris, potholes, and parked car doors. You may occupy any part of a lane when your safety warrants it. Never compromise your safety for the convenience of a motorist behind you. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 142 - Signalling a turn
before turning, look behind you and signal your turn. Cyclists can use their right arm to signal a right turn. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 140(1) 144(29) - Crosswalks
yield or stop for pedestrians at crosswalks. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 140(6)/144(29) - No riding in crosswalks
walk your bike when crossing at a crosswalk. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 166 - Streetcars
stop two metres behind streetcar doors and wait until passengers have boarded or departed and reached the curb. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 175 (12) - Stopped school buses
stop for stopped school buses when the upper alternating red lights are flashing and the stop arm is out. Set fine: $400.00
HTA 62(17) - Lights
a bike must have a white front light and a red rear light or reflector if you ride between 1/2 hour before sunset and 1/2 hour after sunrise and white reflective tape on the front forks and red reflective tape on rear forks. Set fine: $20.00
HTA 75 (5) - Bell
a bike must have a bell or horn in good working order. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 64(3) - Brakes
a bike must have at least one brake system on the rear wheel. When you put on the brakes, you should be able to skid on dry, level pavement. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 218 - Identification
Cyclists must stop and identify themselves when required to stop by police for breaking traffic laws. The police officer will ask you for your correct name and address. Set fine: $85.00
HTA Reg. 630 - Expressways
Bicycles are prohibited on expressway / freeway highways such as the 400 series, the QEW, Ottawa Queensway and on roads where "No Bicycle" signs are posted. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 178(2) - Passengers
Passengers are not allowed on a bicycle designed for one person. Set fine: $85.00
HTA 178(1) - Attaching to a vehicle
You are not permitted to attach yourself to the outside of another vehicle or streetcar for the purpose of "hitching a ride." Set fine: $85.00
HTA 104 - Helmets
Every cyclist under the age of eighteen must wear an approved bicycle helmet. Parents or guardians shall not knowingly permit cyclists under sixteen to ride without a helmet. Set fine: $60.00
HTA 179 - Dismounted bicyclist
Cyclists are required to ride on the right-hand side of the road. If you are walking your bike on a highway where there are no sidewalks, you are considered a pedestrian and you should walk on the left-hand side of the road facing traffic. If it is not safe for you to cross the road to face traffic, you may walk your bike on the right-hand side of the road. Set fine: $35.00

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/cycling/section5.0.shtml

 

[fuji]

I believe if your vehicle does not meet the minimum speed requirement you need a slow moving vehicle plate.

Except bicycles. Specifically except bicycles. Yet another example of the HTA recognizing that a bicycle cannot be treated the same as any other vehicle.

So, I know what you're going to say, that bicycles are exempt from those laws as well?

Yup. Explicitly exempted by section 76(2)2 of the HTA.

 

[tboy]

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. I just looked back over the last few posts, mine in particular, and I don't see any insulting, except for your remarks.
Well, I see your point. What you really mean is that they screwed it up for motorists.
No, they screwed it up for businesses, buses, ambulances, bicyclists, couriers, and yes, motorists.

For sure it is very frustrating to sit idling in a line of 75 cars. I do drive a car every week or two and I find it to be a very frustrating experience. So I look for alternatives. The point is to get people out of cars.

I agree, so DO it already. Either turn the street(s) into TTC only but don't make it so environmentally unfriendly and then complain about the smog. Don't bitch that GM is laying off 2,000 jobs (not you in particular)

As long as we design communities that make people dependent on cars, we have to build more and more highways to move them around, and life becomes more and more intolerable. Fortunately, we have been moving back away from that mentality in the last few years.

We have? Maybe in the core but as long as we keep building suburbs with NO public transit and the main area of business is centralized, then we are no better off than we were in the 1970's.....



Well, as I said in my earlier post, it is really a labyrinth of streets. Its not really a viable alternative.

Well, I suggest you go for a ride there sometime. You have to remember that the city is set up very much like NYC were the streets run north and south and east and west in squares. IN fact, (I can't remember the name of the street) but if you take st clair west ALL the way, it will take you right out to east of the DVP and you won't hare to drive on ONE major street.

Another good example is Davisville ave. YOu can take it from avenue road all the way over to Laird without ever having to drive on a major road.


LOL well, it is not me that is advocating change on such a scale. It would cause far too much disruption to people's lives. So your comment is rather silly.

Is it? So you advocate physcologically making it extremely difficult to get around by car, make it financially burdensome, have the governments reap profits by the taxes the car business generates, but you don't advocate really doing something about it? I mean, other than complain about the smog and the dangerous roads we live on......

And actually I ride my bike closer to 6 days a week, 12 months a year. But I don't know what that has to do with my use of this forum to express my opinion. And I don't know what snide comments you are referring to. Unless not agreeing with you is making a snide comment.

Sorry, C.u.n.ter pissed me off and I took it out on you....My apologies.....

Even though it is clear we do not agree on this subject and I do not expect to change your mind on the issue, my intent was to exchange ideas so that the issue could be examined by all those interested in reading the thread. Now you've come up the the "STFU" comment for the second time. I think it is pretty clear from comments like this, the remark about assaulting bike riders, and how bikers "enrage" motorists that you have some serious rage issues. I wish you luck in finding some help for that.

I have no "rage" issues. I have issues with people purposely doing things that have no real benefit other than to piss other people off or purposely endanger pedestrians.

As is well documented in this thread there are MANY bicycle riders who shouldn't be allowed to ride and or should be sent to a course on how to safely ride. But if you're cool with bicyclists recklessly endangering pedestrians (children and the elderly) then YOU have more of a problem than I do.

Alluding to c.u.nter's comment about me being an internet bully, the thing is: I have a god given right to defend myself in real life and if I see someone on a SIDEWALK doing something that will endanger me, my 1 yr old niece, or any of the other children in my neighborhood then I won't sit idly by and wait for an innocent to get hurt, I will put a stop to it. If no one ever does anything then nothing will change. I am sick and tired of people on bikes using pedestrians as racing pylons.

I am not the only one who feels this way either: I was working on a construction site and 6 of us were going for lunch. 2 were about a car length ahead of us and this 16 yr old punker comes flying down the sidewalk and narrowly misses the first two. They yelled at him to "slow down" and he turns around and says "fuck you" just as me and another worker lean into him and knock him flying....As he's "fucking asshole what did you..." the last pair pull out some side cutters and clip his brake cables.....As he's yelling he's going to call the cops we point to the station 1 block away and say "go on, we'll wait".........

If that punk had hit someone half my size he would have killed them. I WILL not let that happen.....maybe it's ok for everyone else to let things like this slide but not me.......

 

[tboy]

Except bicycles. Specifically except bicycles. Yet another example of the HTA recognizing that a bicycle cannot be treated the same as any other vehicle.



Yup. Explicitly exempted by section 76(2)2 of the HTA.

Did you miss this part???

A bicycle is a vehicle under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act (HTA). This means that, as a bicyclist, you have the same rights and responsibilities to obey all traffic laws as other road users.

The laws above are not the only laws a bicyclist has to abide by.......notice the word ALL traffic laws above????

Well, except in Fuji land where he is fine with following some laws, not others and that changes depending on whether it is to his benefit or not.....

 

[markvee]

Have you ever driven over the speed limit tboy?

If I see you driving over the speed limit, is it okay for me to shoot your tires out as an act of pre-emptive self defence?

 

[red]

Slow moving vehicle sign

76. (1) No person shall operate a slow moving vehicle on a highway unless a slow moving vehicle sign is attached, in accordance with the regulations,

(a) to the rear of the slow moving vehicle, if no trailer, implement of husbandry or other device is being towed;

(b) to the rear of the rearmost trailer, implement of husbandry or other device that is being towed by the slow moving vehicle, if one or more trailers, implements or other devices are being towed. 1994, c. 28, s. 1; 2002, c. 18, Sched. P, s. 21 (1).

Slow moving vehicles

(2) The following are slow moving vehicles:

1. Farm tractors and self-propelled implements of husbandry.

2. Vehicles (other than bicycles, motor assisted bicycles and disabled motor vehicles in tow) that are not capable of attaining and sustaining a speed greater than 40 kilometres per hour on level ground when operated on a highway. 1994, c. 28, s. 1.

 

[mindingmyownbusiness]

my two cents

I ride to work throughtout the year except winter (that's just nuts) and I can agree with both sides of the arguement. When I ride on side streets I do go through four way stops - however what I do is slow right down, stand up on my pedals and give a really good look around - any sign of a vehicle or a pedestrian I stop. What I never do - because I think it is suicidal is to blow through a red light or a two or one way stop sign. Also, I always stop for pedestrians in crosswalks and the street car - I would expect that from everyone else when I cross the street or step off the rocket!

I try to keep my routes as much as I can to the bike lanes -they are great except when drivers dodge into the bike lane to get around somemone turning left - it happens a lot and I have gotten into a lot of yelling matches over it!

Someone earlier made a comment about summer bikers being clueless - I totally agree. I have seen more 40-50 year old ladies on their stylish retrobikes just blowing through intersections with out a care in the world. The biggest peeve I have with fellow bikers is the ones that once you have taken the risk to pass them and you stop at the next light, they cruise through and then you have to pass them again!

When it comes to pedestrians - the worst place to bike is Chinatown East(Broadwiew and Gerard) the sidewalks are over-crowded with produce stands that pedestrians are forced to walk on the street but many times I hve had people with their back to me just step on to the road with out even a glance over their shoulder - I am surprised there have not been more deaths in that area.

I guess my rambling point is that the main thing is courtesy - everyone needs to respect others on the road!