Covid-19 most likely came from a lab leak,,,,,,,,,duh

[WyattEarp]

No argument.
But that doesn't mean "throw out all the data".

It kind of does especially if it's coming from Chinese sources. That's the big problem.

"Admitted"?
They've all been up front about that since the beginning.
As far as I know, no one has ever claimed to have data they don't have and how and why people claim the data supports a given position has been spelled out in the journals when published.

That's all I have been basically saying to basketcase and the rest of the wet market choir. Even if experts have strong beliefs on the origin, they still know enough to have doubts.

But most information we have still supports the wet market theory far better than any alternate explanation.

More data can always change that, but that's the situation as it stands right now.

Agreed. However follow the science isn't in the absence of definitive evidence, let's just go with the likeliest possibility. It's like some here are only reading things that support the wet market theory. I have seen more balanced assessments.

 

[lomotil]

You two both realize that your back-to-back posted articles are in strong agreement with each other, right?

Good observation and you too are in agreement as well, although at times somewhat subliminally.
And as such you may want to come clean and stop simultaneously fellating and backstopping the egregious obtuse and stupid posts of basketcase on this issue…

 

[lomotil]

Enjoy your chow mein......

I enjoy Chinese food but prefer shanghai noodles to chow mein.

Basketcase has been forced to eat crow and this is not the first time …. yes crow, something that is not consumed in China where human cells were purposely infected with Coronavirus followed by the hasty destruction of this research by the PRC as the pandemic debuted.

 

[squeezer]

Are you following the thread or pulling a basketcase where you ignore anything that doesn't support your POV?

You don't think it's interesting and/or odd George Gao the head of China's CDC (until 2022) said there is a possibility that the virus escaped from the lab? He knows more about the lab, it's research, it's safety record than any "expert" sitting in the U.S. or Europe. He also knows more about the capabilities and biases of the people in Wuhan doing the testing and mapping. That's not to mention pressures coming from above on all those involved.

You boys are strange. You cling to theories as gospel and never have any doubts. You would be scary motherfuckers to be on a jury.

You have it all wrong. I'm open to the possibility but within the scientific community the odds fall more on- please read and don't shoot the messenger like the righties tend to do

"Of the three possibilities — natural, accidental, or deliberate — the most scientific evidence yet identified supports natural emergence. More than half of the earliest Covid-19 cases were connected to the Huanan market, and epidemiologic mapping revealed that the concentration of cases was centered there. In January 2020, Chinese officials cleared the market without testing live animals, but positive environmental samples, including those from an animal cage and a hair-and-feather–removal machine, indicated the presence of both SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-susceptible animals.5 Recently released findings included raccoon dog DNA, pointing to a possible SARS-CoV-2 progenitor. Samples from early cases in humans also contained two different SARS-CoV-2 lineages. Although only one lineage spread globally, the existence of multiple lineages suggests that a SARS-CoV-2 epidemic in animals may have led to multiple spillover events."

 

[Valcazar]

You don't think it's interesting and/or odd George Gao the head of China's CDC (until 2022) said there is a possibility that the virus escaped from the lab?

Not particularly?
He said that it couldn't be completely ruled out.
It isn't like he said it most likely is a lab leak or anything unless you know of a statement I'm unaware of.

You boys are strange. You cling to theories as gospel and never have any doubts. You would be scary motherfuckers to be on a jury.

Why are the people who want to actually use the evidence as it is presented scary on a jury?
That's who you want there.[/QUOTE]

 

[Valcazar]

It kind of does especially if it's coming from Chinese sources. That's the big problem.

Unless you think every piece of data that exists in the geographical space of China is inherently fraudulent, it doesn't mean throw out every piece of data.
And that's a hell of a thing to say.

That's all I have been basically saying to basketcase and the rest of the wet market choir. Even if experts have strong beliefs on the origin, they still know enough to have doubts.

I haven't seen them not point out that lab leak can't be ruled out.

Agreed. However follow the science isn't in the absence of definitive evidence, let's just go with the likeliest possibility. It's like some here are only reading things that support the wet market theory. I have seen more balanced assessments.

Show some of the support for the lab leak then.
The primary problem the theory has always had is it is constructed entirely out of "there are gaps and I can come up with an explanation that makes it a lab leak".

That is the primary reason it stays as the lower likelihood possibility.
The repeated bad faith actions by some of its prominent supporters doesn't help (but doesn't mean it goes to zero).

 

[WyattEarp]

Why are the people who want to actually use the evidence as it is presented scary on a jury?
That's who you want there.

I think you are trying too hard here to unravel the very basic concept of reasonable doubt.

Most of us have probably seen Twelve Angry Men. You want a jury that doesn't lock into a predetermination. Your words are more flexible on thought in this thread. But others who aggressively locked into the wet market theory in 2020 have not been able to admit that a lab leak was possible.

As I said, me thinks that there is political overhang on this matter in people's minds. If there is one thing about politics is that people look for black and white ignoring shades of grey.

 

[Valcazar]

I think you are trying too hard here to unravel the very basic concept of reasonable doubt.

Most of us have probably seen Twelve Angry Men. You want a jury that doesn't lock into a predetermination. Your words are more flexible on thought in this thread. But others who aggressively locked into the wet market theory in 2020 have not been able to admit that a lab leak was possible.

As I said, me thinks that there is political overhang on this matter in people's minds. If there is one thing about politics is that people look for black and white ignoring shades of grey.

Thing is, its the lab leak people who have been locked into predetermined thought.
They keep insisting it must be real despite no evidence because it is the story they want.

They are the people you want off a jury.

 

[WyattEarp]

Thing is, its the lab leak people who have been locked into predetermined thought.
They keep insisting it must be real despite no evidence because it is the story they want.

They are the people you want off a jury.

Perhaps, but they were the ones routinely ridiculed on these pages in 2020 for suggesting a lab leak. I'm not sure how it all came to that, but the skeptical shouldn't be ostracized in this matter.

That's why my sympathies gravitated to those who were mocked, but later proven to have reasonable doubt.

 

[Butler1000]

Unless you think every piece of data that exists in the geographical space of China is inherently fraudulent, it doesn't mean throw out every piece of data.
And that's a hell of a thing to say.



I haven't seen them not point out that lab leak can't be ruled out.



Show some of the support for the lab leak then.
The primary problem the theory has always had is it is constructed entirely out of "there are gaps and I can come up with an explanation that makes it a lab leak".

That is the primary reason it stays as the lower likelihood possibility.
The repeated bad faith actions by some of its prominent supporters doesn't help (but doesn't mean it goes to zero).

Since Tianamen Square and the Uygurs near genocide, ya I can pretty much say the CCP will say and do anything to cover up shit. And allow shit loads of death of their own citizens as well.

And in this case they have covered up a shitload.

 

[squeezer]

Perhaps, but they were the ones routinely ridiculed on these pages in 2020 for suggesting a lab leak. I'm not sure how it all came to that, but the skeptical shouldn't be ostracized in this matter.

That's why my sympathies gravitated to those who were mocked, but later proven to have reasonable doubt.

They are ridiculed because they attempt to make it fact whereas the other side is simply saying scientists predominantly believe the virus occurred naturally in animals and spread to humans in an outbreak at a market in Wuhan but yes a lab leak is still possible until proven one way or another.

 

[WyattEarp]

Since Tianamen Square and the Uygurs near genocide, ya I can pretty much say the CCP will say and do anything to cover up shit. And allow shit loads of death of their own citizens as well.

And in this case they have covered up a shitload.

Exactly.

I'm not sure what Valcazar was intending to say, but I doubt he believes in broadly believing the Chinese. I'm not sure everyone realizes how easy it is for a brutal, autocratic society to cover things up and how regularly they falsify information.

 

[Butler1000]

They are ridiculed because they attempt to make it fact whereas the other side is simply saying scientists predominantly believe the virus occurred naturally in animals and spread to humans in an outbreak at a market in Wuhan but yes a lab leak is still possible until proven one way or another.

When Fauci said, "I am science" and yes, while using slighly ambiguous language he did say the science in his opinion was settled, I'd say he was doing the same thing. And his reason for the CYA imo is he knew the possibility was much greater that he wanted the public to know.

 

[squeezer]

When Fauci said, "I am science" and yes, while using slighly ambiguous language he did say the science in his opinion was settled, I'd say he was doing the same thing. And his reason for the CYA imo is he knew the possibility was much greater that he wanted the public to know.

This is because you have a feeling in your gut and that for you is proof enough eh? LMAO

 

[Butler1000]

This is because you have a feeling in your gut and that for you is proof enough eh? LMAO

Um no. We have two bad inspections by the USA prior to that. By the Foreign affairs dept. Employees also on site said they were having trouble getting qualified people. So the lab was not up to spec.

Employees of the lab went to the hospital in November prior to the main outbreak. And the Chinese lied about a bat farm at the lab, and that they were doing gain of function there.

Really though its about trust.

I do not trust the CPP to tell the truth. I do not trust the Big Pharma sponsored labs to tell the truth. I do not Trust Fauci who continued to authorize money to the Wuhan Lab despite reported deficiencies to tell the truth.

There is enough red flags to set off the alarms. And a crapload of money, reputation, and political ramifications to want to create doubt, preset a narrative, and call anyone a conspiracy theoriest who questions them.

Can you imagine the fallout to China foreign relations, to lab funding, to research into diseases, that emwould occur from an accidental outbreak from a lab reported to be shoddy in containment? There is one hell of a lot of incentive from powerful forces to create doubt and hope it goes away.

And it will. No consequences will come of this.

 

[lomotil]

If there was in fact a lab leak responsible for this colossal pandemic and the PRC had wished to orchestrate a cover up then I expect that they would have behaved exactly as they have been doing!!!
Data has been destroyed, scientist at Wuhan who were familiar with the research involving the infection of human cells with Coronavirus silenced. medical doctors in Wuhan ICU’s associated with treating early Covid-19 patients silenced or executed and the so called reservoirs for zoonotic transfer, namely the wet markets allowed to re-open.
The PRC remains very opaque on what really happened in Wuhan.

The actions of the PRC are contrary to the zoonotic transfer theory as are the actions of the millions of Chinese citizens who are again frequenting and supporting the wet markets.

 

[basketcase]

From what I have read all the data is being originated by Chinese scientists....

Maybe you should read beyond whatever social media site you're on.

And it doesn't change a thing. Some evidence outweighs no evidence in any scientific situation. Get something more convincing that a lab was in the same city and maybe a couple people at the lab had some kind of illness and I'd happily consider it's worth.

 

[basketcase]

Naw, a conspiracy theory requires more complex details than the virus simply could have originated seven or eight miles away from the wet market. Both the wet market theory and the lab leak theory are simple in nature.

Saying the Chinese are manipulating COVID data and information is not even in doubt. It's just a matter of what one chooses to believe out of a dog's breakfast of obfuscation and misinformation perhaps mixed in with some truth.

The greatest strength of the market theory is the geographic distribution of the infections. It is possible that a lab worker got infected, travelled across the city without infecting anyone before spreading it at the market but it is pretty clear that the market area was the epicentre. That makes it far more likely that the source of the infection was at the market.

p.s. I don't view anyone here as "the enemy" and instead choose to evaluate each stance people give. But yes, when people put forward asinine opinions in one field, it does make me sceptical of their other views.

 

[basketcase]

Are you following the thread or pulling a basketcase where you ignore anything that doesn't support your POV?
...

And what evidence am I ignoring? And I emphasize the word EVIDENCE.

 

[basketcase]

Basketcase has been forced to eat crow ...

Not my first choice. Even in a survival situation I'd prefer some kind of grouse or rabbit.

But do you realize how stupid it is when your only evidence is that China has a lab?