Covid-19 most likely came from a lab leak,,,,,,,,,duh

[WyattEarp]

Ah, conspiracy theories. I guess they're more fun than facts.

Naw, a conspiracy theory requires more complex details than the virus simply could have originated seven or eight miles away from the wet market. Both the wet market theory and the lab leak theory are simple in nature.

Saying the Chinese are manipulating COVID data and information is not even in doubt. It's just a matter of what one chooses to believe out of a dog's breakfast of obfuscation and misinformation perhaps mixed in with some truth.

 

[WyattEarp]

Are you convenient inside a kangaroo court controlled by the PRC or just moronically obtuse ?

This isn't the first issue where basketcase locked into a geopolitical position that inadvertently was sleeping with the enemy. I have cautioned him and others here before to not get turned around simply because they don't like the words coming from a domestic opponent.

Geopolitics can swing so fast that you need to have a flexible mind.

 

[WyattEarp]

Interesting article that throws into doubt so called "the evidence".

There Is No Evidence Strong Enough to End the Pandemic-Origins Debate - The Atlantic

"In a landscape so sparsely populated by data, it gets all too easy for people to fill in the gaps with speculation; “what starts off as a weak preference,” Hughes (Alice Hughes, a conservation biologist at the University of Hong Kong), told me, “becomes almost like a religion.” I’ve been reporting now for three years on many controversial COVID stories, along the way interviewing hundreds of opinionated scientists about dozens of thorny questions. Through it all, this debate has stood out for being so ignitable. Individual data points have become catalysts; single statements have been endlessly scrutinized. And experts have staked out territory and stuck to it almost dogmatically—many of them to the point of avoiding admitting past mistakes. COVID’s origins are now shrouded in combustible gas, with matches scattered everywhere: Lighting up a single point, normally harmless enough, inevitably sets off a conflagration."

 

[squeezer]

From what I have read all the data is being originated by Chinese scientists. That's fine, but skepticism is in order. The Chinese have been fucking around with COVID data since the outbreak. It's their modus operandi. The Chinese mess with all sorts of data to present an image to the world.

Many virologists have admitted the wet market theory is only supported by circumstantial evidence. They are focused on raccoon dogs, but they can't be sure if the live raccoon dogs brought it into the Wuhan wet market or humans passed the virus to the raccoon dogs. By the time they tested samples from the wet market, the virus was raging all over Wuhan.

@lomotil presented some of the more absurd statements and actions of the Chinese. They deny the virus outbreak originated in Wuhan. There is even the Chinese CDC head saying it's possible the virus leaked from the Wuhan lab. This itself is a very interesting acknowledgement. All of this leads us to believe we will never know definitively where the virus originated.

You can't simply ignore information that doesn't fit the wet market theory. It's like you locked in on the wet market theory in spring/summer 2020 and have refused to consider new information and new questions from various experts in the field.

Wyatt, the experts, journals, etc...can never outsmart you eh? LOL

I pulled out a snippet but please, take the time to read it all. Don't take it from Basketcase or anyone else, just read, it can be eye opening.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2305081

Of the three possibilities — natural, accidental, or deliberate — the most scientific evidence yet identified supports natural emergence. More than half of the earliest Covid-19 cases were connected to the Huanan market, and epidemiologic mapping revealed that the concentration of cases was centered there. In January 2020, Chinese officials cleared the market without testing live animals, but positive environmental samples, including those from an animal cage and a hair-and-feather–removal machine, indicated the presence of both SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-susceptible animals.5 Recently released findings included raccoon dog DNA, pointing to a possible SARS-CoV-2 progenitor. Samples from early cases in humans also contained two different SARS-CoV-2 lineages. Although only one lineage spread globally, the existence of multiple lineages suggests that a SARS-CoV-2 epidemic in animals may have led to multiple spillover events.

 

[Valcazar]

From what I have read all the data is being originated by Chinese scientists. That's fine, but skepticism is in order. The Chinese have been fucking around with COVID data since the outbreak. It's their modus operandi. The Chinese mess with all sorts of data to present an image to the world.

No argument.
But that doesn't mean "throw out all the data".

Many virologists have admitted the wet market theory is only supported by circumstantial evidence.

"Admitted"?
They've all been up front about that since the beginning.
As far as I know, no one has ever claimed to have data they don't have and how and why people claim the data supports a given position has been spelled out in the journals when published.

They are focused on raccoon dogs, but they can't be sure if the live raccoon dogs brought it into the Wuhan wet market or humans passed the virus to the raccoon dogs. By the time they tested samples from the wet market, the virus was raging all over Wuhan.

Yes.
The Chinese government made sure anything else was impossible.

You can't simply ignore information that doesn't fit the wet market theory. It's like you locked in on the wet market theory in spring/summer 2020 and have refused to consider new information and new questions from various experts in the field.

Sure.
But most information we have still supports the wet market theory far better than any alternate explanation.

More data can always change that, but that's the situation as it stands right now.

 

[Valcazar]

Interesting article that throws into doubt so called "the evidence".

There Is No Evidence Strong Enough to End the Pandemic-Origins Debate - The Atlantic

"In a landscape so sparsely populated by data, it gets all too easy for people to fill in the gaps with speculation; “what starts off as a weak preference,” Hughes (Alice Hughes, a conservation biologist at the University of Hong Kong), told me, “becomes almost like a religion.” I’ve been reporting now for three years on many controversial COVID stories, along the way interviewing hundreds of opinionated scientists about dozens of thorny questions. Through it all, this debate has stood out for being so ignitable. Individual data points have become catalysts; single statements have been endlessly scrutinized. And experts have staked out territory and stuck to it almost dogmatically—many of them to the point of avoiding admitting past mistakes. COVID’s origins are now shrouded in combustible gas, with matches scattered everywhere: Lighting up a single point, normally harmless enough, inevitably sets off a conflagration."

Wyatt, the experts, journals, etc...can never outsmart you eh? LOL

I pulled out a snippet but please, take the time to read it all. Don't take it from Basketcase or anyone else, just read, it can be eye opening.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2305081

Of the three possibilities — natural, accidental, or deliberate — the most scientific evidence yet identified supports natural emergence. More than half of the earliest Covid-19 cases were connected to the Huanan market, and epidemiologic mapping revealed that the concentration of cases was centered there. In January 2020, Chinese officials cleared the market without testing live animals, but positive environmental samples, including those from an animal cage and a hair-and-feather–removal machine, indicated the presence of both SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-susceptible animals.5 Recently released findings included raccoon dog DNA, pointing to a possible SARS-CoV-2 progenitor. Samples from early cases in humans also contained two different SARS-CoV-2 lineages. Although only one lineage spread globally, the existence of multiple lineages suggests that a SARS-CoV-2 epidemic in animals may have led to multiple spillover events.

You two both realize that your back-to-back posted articles are in strong agreement with each other, right?

 

[squeezer]

You two both realize that your back-to-back posted articles are in strong agreement with each other, right?

 

[WyattEarp]

Wyatt, the experts, journals, etc...can never outsmart you eh? LOL

I pulled out a snippet but please, take the time to read it all. Don't take it from Basketcase or anyone else, just read, it can be eye opening.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2305081

Of the three possibilities — natural, accidental, or deliberate — the most scientific evidence yet identified supports natural emergence. More than half of the earliest Covid-19 cases were connected to the Huanan market, and epidemiologic mapping revealed that the concentration of cases was centered there. In January 2020, Chinese officials cleared the market without testing live animals, but positive environmental samples, including those from an animal cage and a hair-and-feather–removal machine, indicated the presence of both SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-susceptible animals.5 Recently released findings included raccoon dog DNA, pointing to a possible SARS-CoV-2 progenitor. Samples from early cases in humans also contained two different SARS-CoV-2 lineages. Although only one lineage spread globally, the existence of multiple lineages suggests that a SARS-CoV-2 epidemic in animals may have led to multiple spillover events.

Are you following the thread or pulling a basketcase where you ignore anything that doesn't support your POV?

You don't think it's interesting and/or odd George Gao the head of China's CDC (until 2022) said there is a possibility that the virus escaped from the lab? He knows more about the lab, it's research, it's safety record than any "expert" sitting in the U.S. or Europe. He also knows more about the capabilities and biases of the people in Wuhan doing the testing and mapping. That's not to mention pressures coming from above on all those involved.

You boys are strange. You cling to theories as gospel and never have any doubts. You would be scary motherfuckers to be on a jury.

 

[WyattEarp]

No argument.
But that doesn't mean "throw out all the data".

It kind of does especially if it's coming from Chinese sources. That's the big problem.

"Admitted"?
They've all been up front about that since the beginning.
As far as I know, no one has ever claimed to have data they don't have and how and why people claim the data supports a given position has been spelled out in the journals when published.

That's all I have been basically saying to basketcase and the rest of the wet market choir. Even if experts have strong beliefs on the origin, they still know enough to have doubts.

But most information we have still supports the wet market theory far better than any alternate explanation.

More data can always change that, but that's the situation as it stands right now.

Agreed. However follow the science isn't in the absence of definitive evidence, let's just go with the likeliest possibility. It's like some here are only reading things that support the wet market theory. I have seen more balanced assessments.

 

[lomotil]

You two both realize that your back-to-back posted articles are in strong agreement with each other, right?

Good observation and you too are in agreement as well, although at times somewhat subliminally.
And as such you may want to come clean and stop simultaneously fellating and backstopping the egregious obtuse and stupid posts of basketcase on this issue…

 

[lomotil]

Enjoy your chow mein......

I enjoy Chinese food but prefer shanghai noodles to chow mein.

Basketcase has been forced to eat crow and this is not the first time …. yes crow, something that is not consumed in China where human cells were purposely infected with Coronavirus followed by the hasty destruction of this research by the PRC as the pandemic debuted.

 

[squeezer]

Are you following the thread or pulling a basketcase where you ignore anything that doesn't support your POV?

You don't think it's interesting and/or odd George Gao the head of China's CDC (until 2022) said there is a possibility that the virus escaped from the lab? He knows more about the lab, it's research, it's safety record than any "expert" sitting in the U.S. or Europe. He also knows more about the capabilities and biases of the people in Wuhan doing the testing and mapping. That's not to mention pressures coming from above on all those involved.

You boys are strange. You cling to theories as gospel and never have any doubts. You would be scary motherfuckers to be on a jury.

You have it all wrong. I'm open to the possibility but within the scientific community the odds fall more on- please read and don't shoot the messenger like the righties tend to do

"Of the three possibilities — natural, accidental, or deliberate — the most scientific evidence yet identified supports natural emergence. More than half of the earliest Covid-19 cases were connected to the Huanan market, and epidemiologic mapping revealed that the concentration of cases was centered there. In January 2020, Chinese officials cleared the market without testing live animals, but positive environmental samples, including those from an animal cage and a hair-and-feather–removal machine, indicated the presence of both SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-susceptible animals.5 Recently released findings included raccoon dog DNA, pointing to a possible SARS-CoV-2 progenitor. Samples from early cases in humans also contained two different SARS-CoV-2 lineages. Although only one lineage spread globally, the existence of multiple lineages suggests that a SARS-CoV-2 epidemic in animals may have led to multiple spillover events."

 

[Valcazar]

You don't think it's interesting and/or odd George Gao the head of China's CDC (until 2022) said there is a possibility that the virus escaped from the lab?

Not particularly?
He said that it couldn't be completely ruled out.
It isn't like he said it most likely is a lab leak or anything unless you know of a statement I'm unaware of.

You boys are strange. You cling to theories as gospel and never have any doubts. You would be scary motherfuckers to be on a jury.

Why are the people who want to actually use the evidence as it is presented scary on a jury?
That's who you want there.[/QUOTE]

 

[Valcazar]

It kind of does especially if it's coming from Chinese sources. That's the big problem.

Unless you think every piece of data that exists in the geographical space of China is inherently fraudulent, it doesn't mean throw out every piece of data.
And that's a hell of a thing to say.

That's all I have been basically saying to basketcase and the rest of the wet market choir. Even if experts have strong beliefs on the origin, they still know enough to have doubts.

I haven't seen them not point out that lab leak can't be ruled out.

Agreed. However follow the science isn't in the absence of definitive evidence, let's just go with the likeliest possibility. It's like some here are only reading things that support the wet market theory. I have seen more balanced assessments.

Show some of the support for the lab leak then.
The primary problem the theory has always had is it is constructed entirely out of "there are gaps and I can come up with an explanation that makes it a lab leak".

That is the primary reason it stays as the lower likelihood possibility.
The repeated bad faith actions by some of its prominent supporters doesn't help (but doesn't mean it goes to zero).

 

[WyattEarp]

Why are the people who want to actually use the evidence as it is presented scary on a jury?
That's who you want there.

I think you are trying too hard here to unravel the very basic concept of reasonable doubt.

Most of us have probably seen Twelve Angry Men. You want a jury that doesn't lock into a predetermination. Your words are more flexible on thought in this thread. But others who aggressively locked into the wet market theory in 2020 have not been able to admit that a lab leak was possible.

As I said, me thinks that there is political overhang on this matter in people's minds. If there is one thing about politics is that people look for black and white ignoring shades of grey.

 

[Valcazar]

I think you are trying too hard here to unravel the very basic concept of reasonable doubt.

Most of us have probably seen Twelve Angry Men. You want a jury that doesn't lock into a predetermination. Your words are more flexible on thought in this thread. But others who aggressively locked into the wet market theory in 2020 have not been able to admit that a lab leak was possible.

As I said, me thinks that there is political overhang on this matter in people's minds. If there is one thing about politics is that people look for black and white ignoring shades of grey.

Thing is, its the lab leak people who have been locked into predetermined thought.
They keep insisting it must be real despite no evidence because it is the story they want.

They are the people you want off a jury.

 

[WyattEarp]

Thing is, its the lab leak people who have been locked into predetermined thought.
They keep insisting it must be real despite no evidence because it is the story they want.

They are the people you want off a jury.

Perhaps, but they were the ones routinely ridiculed on these pages in 2020 for suggesting a lab leak. I'm not sure how it all came to that, but the skeptical shouldn't be ostracized in this matter.

That's why my sympathies gravitated to those who were mocked, but later proven to have reasonable doubt.

 

[Butler1000]

Unless you think every piece of data that exists in the geographical space of China is inherently fraudulent, it doesn't mean throw out every piece of data.
And that's a hell of a thing to say.



I haven't seen them not point out that lab leak can't be ruled out.



Show some of the support for the lab leak then.
The primary problem the theory has always had is it is constructed entirely out of "there are gaps and I can come up with an explanation that makes it a lab leak".

That is the primary reason it stays as the lower likelihood possibility.
The repeated bad faith actions by some of its prominent supporters doesn't help (but doesn't mean it goes to zero).

Since Tianamen Square and the Uygurs near genocide, ya I can pretty much say the CCP will say and do anything to cover up shit. And allow shit loads of death of their own citizens as well.

And in this case they have covered up a shitload.

 

[squeezer]

Perhaps, but they were the ones routinely ridiculed on these pages in 2020 for suggesting a lab leak. I'm not sure how it all came to that, but the skeptical shouldn't be ostracized in this matter.

That's why my sympathies gravitated to those who were mocked, but later proven to have reasonable doubt.

They are ridiculed because they attempt to make it fact whereas the other side is simply saying scientists predominantly believe the virus occurred naturally in animals and spread to humans in an outbreak at a market in Wuhan but yes a lab leak is still possible until proven one way or another.

 

[WyattEarp]

Since Tianamen Square and the Uygurs near genocide, ya I can pretty much say the CCP will say and do anything to cover up shit. And allow shit loads of death of their own citizens as well.

And in this case they have covered up a shitload.

Exactly.

I'm not sure what Valcazar was intending to say, but I doubt he believes in broadly believing the Chinese. I'm not sure everyone realizes how easy it is for a brutal, autocratic society to cover things up and how regularly they falsify information.