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Collective Punishment

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SkyRider

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Mar 31, 2009
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http://www.newser.com/article/c49ab...-powerhouses-season-puts-focus-on-hazing.html

I really dislike this trend to collective punishment. Allan Rock did the same thing with the University of Ottawa hockey team. Why punish the entire team because of a couple of bad apples?

Here is an everyday example. Let say you work in a 20 person accounting department of a large bank. Let say one of your co-worker is accused of frequenting escorts. Should the bank suspend the entire accounting department?
 
http://www.newser.com/story/197032/as-school-axes-football-season-dark-tale-emerges.html

Depending on how accurate the reporting on this story is, your analogy doesn't work. In the situation you described, there are no victims. However, from the article:

... Board of Education abruptly canceled the rest of the season on Monday, with Superintendent Richard Labbe citing "incidents of harassment, intimidation, and bullying that took place on a pervasive level, and at a level in which the players knew, tolerated, and in general accepted."...

And:

[For] 10 seconds, the lights would go off and they would grab a freshman and they would go on," he says, saying that older players routinely held younger players down and forced a finger into their rectum—then sometimes into their mouth. "It was happening every day," he says. "They would get the freshmen." Labbe wouldn't confirm the parent's account, calling the matter "very serious.

If you had a teenage son on that team and someone was holding him down, sticking a finger in his ass and then in his mouth, do you still think it was no big deal? And for it to be a regular occurrence, with a number of guys participating, we can't say if the others knew or not, but it would be difficult to hide, so the others might not have known but didn't report it either.
 
Have to agree with you Skyrider. I have for many years found it highly peculiar that we the Allied Powers in Europe prosecuted Germans in the Nuremberg Trials for Collective Punishment. Meanwhile in North America Collective Punishment is alive and well at Universities!
 
Very simple principle. It is supposed to encourage self-policing by all teammates.

Very few secrets in the locker room. If a teammate knows he'll get punished for someone else's actions he is more likely to do something to stop it from happening.

Not saying it is perfect, but it is easy to see how this could prevent some incidents.

One can't compare what goes on in a locker room of a small number of close adolescents/young men and a whole country embroiled in a world war.
 
Miss Jessica Lee said:
how about five of your accountants hold down the mail clerk every day and stick their fingers in his ass, while the other 15 accountants, who are completely aware, do and say nothing.
Click to expand...
Do you believe that the 15 accountants can be convicted and imprisoned for not doing so?

This is not whether is is moral for them not to do so.
 
shack said:
Very few secrets in the locker room. If a teammate knows he'll get punished for someone else's actions he is more likely to do something to stop it from happening.
Click to expand...
Also, very few secrets in the office as well. I do have a problem with the innocent being punished along with the alleged guilty party. Let's say "Jessica" tells you that she thinks she saw your subordinate "Jim" raping the mail clerk. She offers no proof other than hearsay. Would you immediately report this allegation to the police (as some people said Joe Paterno should have done) and Jim is arrested? Later Jim is cleared of the baseless allegation and you get a letter from Jim's lawyer demanding $1 million in damages.
 
SkyRider said:
Also, very few secrets in the office as well. I do have a problem with the innocent being punished along with the alleged guilty party.
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I understand your concern but the objective, despite the inequities, is prevention/deterrence, i.e. the benefit of possibly stopping an incident before it happens outweighs some unfair punishment after the fact.
 
Miss Jessica Lee said:
that's absurd, it would mean nobody would ever report a crime, for fear of legal retribution.

I would think it's the job of the police to actually investigate the allegation before making an arrest and laying a charge, especially when the report is third hand as you suggest. But what do I know? ;)
Click to expand...

I hear you but let say you suspect your neighbor "Bob" is beating his wife. You stick you nose in and you ask the wife. She denies she is being beaten but you still have your suspicions. You report your suspicions to the police. The whole neighborhood now suspects that "Bob" is a wife abuser. Whether guilty or innocent, "Bob's" life is ruin.
 
wait for it said:
With Hazing it usually isn't a small group thing.
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Hazing is just one example, but, did Allan Rock have to suspend the entire University of Ottawa hockey team because two members were accused of sexual assault?

Another example, did nobody on the New England Patriots football team suspect or know that Aaron Hernandez might have committed murder? The lockerroom is a small place after all. Why don't we suspect the entire team for a year. Same question with athletes taking PED's. Did nobody on the Orioles know that Chris Davis was taking PED's? Why are the Orioles in the MLB playoffs?
 
SkyRider said:
Also, very few secrets in the office as well. I do have a problem with the innocent being punished along with the alleged guilty party. Let's say "Jessica" tells you that she thinks she saw your subordinate "Jim" raping the mail clerk. She offers no proof other than hearsay. Would you immediately report this allegation to the police (as some people said Joe Paterno should have done) and Jim is arrested? Later Jim is cleared of the baseless allegation and you get a letter from Jim's lawyer demanding $1 million in damages.
Click to expand...

Not to mention that Jim's career built up over 30 years is now destroyed.

KK
 
I get the attempt to try and modify behavior via peer pressure, but I don't understand at all, the point of punishing people who have no culpability and especially those who may not
have any knowledge of or control over wrongdoing. It's ludicrous and an affront to the most basic sense of justice.
You can rationalize any from of punishment on the grounds that it is for a greater good.
 
jazzpig said:
I get the attempt to try and modify behavior via peer pressure, but I don't understand at all, the point of punishing people who have no culpability and especially those who may not
have any knowledge of or control over wrongdoing. It's ludicrous and an affront to the most basic sense of justice.
You can rationalize any from of punishment on the grounds that it is for a greater good.
Click to expand...

I think that most if not all reasonable people would agree with the above quote.

The next question is what are your legal and/or moral obligations if you actually witness (not hearsay) a teammate or co-worker committing a crime? Let say in the post Bill C-36 period you witness one of your co-workers getting a BBBJ from a young lady and then slips her a $100 bill. Is this a payment for a "sexual service"? Do you do nothing or call the police?
 
SkyRider said:
I think that most if not all reasonable people would agree with the above quote.

The next question is what are your legal and/or moral obligations if you actually witness (not hearsay) a teammate or co-worker committing a crime? Let say in the post Bill C-36 period you witness one of your co-workers getting a BBBJ from a young lady and then slips her a $100 bill. Is this a payment for a "sexual service"? Do you do nothing or call the police?
Click to expand...

Specifically to the OP, the article states that abuse was deemed to be pervasive. What does that mean, exactly?
My comment was more directed to those that feel collective punishment as a general means of modifying behavior or exacting justice, is justified.
To your point, I'm not sure what the law requires. Hearsay is not permissible in court, I don't think. After that it's a huge grey area.
If a kid is being picked on in class, and a few classmates are filming it and laughing, some action has to be taken I would think, to discourage that.
But do you suspend the entire class for it. Even if lots of kids stood by and filmed, the kids minding their own business should have to be punished?
 
jazzpig said:
Specifically to the OP, the article states that abuse was deemed to be pervasive. What does that mean, exactly?
Click to expand...
Heard on the radio to-day that the school might abolish the football program. That would be a big mistake. Young males need an outlet for their energy. Without football (or basketball) the risk is that they will turn to theft, drugs, pimping, maybe even shooting/stabbing each other.
 
Aardvark154 said:
Do you believe that the 15 accountants can be convicted and imprisoned for not doing so?

This is not whether is is moral for them not to do so.
Click to expand...

I don't know what the punishment would be, but I would support some form of punishment for those 15 accountants under Good Samaritan Laws.

If you witness physical assault and physical abuse of the manner described and do nothing, you should be held accountable not only morally but legally.

Cowardice is no excuse for not confronting the abuses described above. Pick up a phone, dial 911, and report it.
 
Generally, so-called "good samaritan" laws refer to laws shielding volunteer helpers from tort liability. Laws imposing positive duties to act are not generally understood as falling under this rubric.
 
jazzpig said:
I get the attempt to try and modify behavior via peer pressure, but I don't understand at all, the point of punishing people who have no culpability and especially those who may not
have any knowledge of or control over wrongdoing. It's ludicrous and an affront to the most basic sense of justice.
You can rationalize any from of punishment on the grounds that it is for a greater good.
Click to expand...
The article also said that sexual problems were rampant. I don't think there could be those without any knowledge and therefore it is tacit complicity which is just as bad. Who reports it would have to be a witness but it sounds like the school was infected and the team needed to be shut down. Let's face it. For years to come there won't be anymore hazing as a result of this punishment where as if the 7 were kicked off of the team who is to say the incidents wouldn't keep occurring. It is tough love for those who weren't participating but it won't happen again. There will be too much peer pressure from thos who aren't actively involved.

It may even cause vigilante behavior from those not involved and straighten everyone out.
 
an example of collective punishment

 
Miss Jessica Lee said:
how about five of your accountants hold down the mail clerk every day and stick their fingers in his ass, while the other 15 accountants, who are completely aware, do and say nothing.
Click to expand...

Bingo.

The school did EXACTLY what they should have done. Sure the really guilty culprits will get worse punishment, but all the others who knew something was going on but didn't want to rock the boat will now realize the implications of what they've done (or not done in this case).

If the culprits had been punished as soon as it happened by others stepping forward, then this wouldn't be necessary. But in this case the school has now acted responsibly and come down hard on the football PROGRAM that allowed this to happen.

The NFL is in the same boat from the lack of action on their part. Now they're paying the price as well.

Two thumbs up.
 
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