BROKEN: Our healthcare system.

[Frankfooter]

True! However, comparisons to the US - the worst for admin costs- is not a good thing. We should compare admin expenses to similar systems in Europe. I don't think those comparisons would be favorable to Canada.

Perhaps, we have been moving towards more privatized services and that means more admin and more expensive services.

 

[dvous11]

Perhaps, we have been moving towards more privatized services and that means more admin and more expensive services.

And drastically reduced wait-times so people don't die while waiting for surgery/treatment, or have to incur the expense of going to the USA for expedited service/treatment.

 

[GameBoy27]

Do you have stats to back that up?

All you have to do is look at the number of job openings on Indeed. That, and I have many numerous friends in the medical profession who all say the same thing. Including a nurse manager who is constantly looking to fill nursing positions.

https://ca.indeed.com/jobs?q=nurse&l=Toronto,+ON&from=searchOnHP&vjk=2aa3b82af9d6c063

 

[shack]

All you have to do is look at the number of job openings on Indeed. That, and I have many numerous friends in the medical profession who all say the same thing. Including a nurse manager who is constantly looking to fill nursing positions.

One employment website and your anecdotal tales are hardly conclusive evidence.

 

[GameBoy27]

One employment website and your anecdotal tales are hardly conclusive evidence.

This echoes what my friends in healthcare have been saying.

Nursing shortage in Ontario remains despite a push to hire...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-nursing-worker-shortage-ontario/#:~:text=The%20total%20number%20of%20nurses,the%20country's%20health%20worker%20shortage.

https://www.ona.org/news-posts/20221117-nurse-staffing-report/

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...cle_bf7a60a4-6f0a-5ce5-a78a-fcffafbc8f16.html

 

[hatfieldvictor]

This echoes what my friends in healthcare have been saying.

Nursing shortage in Ontario remains despite a push to hire...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-nursing-worker-shortage-ontario/#:~:text=The%20total%20number%20of%20nurses,the%20country's%20health%20worker%20shortage.

https://www.ona.org/news-posts/20221117-nurse-staffing-report/

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/con...cle_bf7a60a4-6f0a-5ce5-a78a-fcffafbc8f16.html

We pay them well but still shortage. Too much education?

 

[Frankfooter]

And drastically reduced wait-times so people don't die while waiting for surgery/treatment, or have to incur the expense of going to the USA for expedited service/treatment.

Except that's not happening.

 

[Frankfooter]

We pay them well but still shortage. Too much education?

No, they can just make way in any other province or in the states.

 

[John_Jacob]

Perhaps, we have been moving towards more privatized services and that means more admin and more expensive services.

maybe. IIRC, a few years back I was looking a % breakdown of hospita spending and admin looked flat. Things might have changed.However, private or public greater oversight and reporting regulations necessarily drives additional administrative costs (obvious other reasons too). . It all depends where the priorities lay,

 

[Not getting younger]

[

All you have to do is look at the number of job openings on Indeed. That, and I have many numerous friends in the medical profession who all say the same thing. Including a nurse manager who is constantly looking to fill nursing positions.

https://ca.indeed.com/jobs?q=nurse&l=Toronto,+ON&from=searchOnHP&vjk=2aa3b82af9d6c063

Game boy it’s ok. It’s unlikely people spend much time Hospitals or Ers. Or other areas of PS. Don’t see the hours of OT so many are working, and can’t figure out why the Sunshine list grows.

Hell even though the hell of LTCs, PSWs just a couple years ago, should be fresh. And while they screamed at Ford (despite that being a couple decades of neglect)

Can’t figure out, it’s about not having $ to hire what’s needed. Can’t figure out, while most ministries the number of fix term employees ( cheaper) outnumbers full time.

Its not a problem, until it is, and with boomers here. It is now

 

[Frankfooter]

maybe. IIRC, a few years back I was looking a % breakdown of hospita spending and admin looked flat. Things might have changed.However, private or public greater oversight and reporting regulations necessarily drives additional administrative costs (obvious other reasons too). . It all depends where the priorities lay,

DoFo pulled money out of health care, hired contract nurses that are way more expensive because he didn't want union nurses making any more money. Then gave cops a 20% increase. Then started privatizing services like telehealth to donors. Then emergency rooms started closing.

 

[barnacler]

restructure our economy BACK to restore a strong manufacturing sector and resource based industry sector.

Worldwide economies have been moving to services as the prime source of wealth. Manufacturing is declining in importance. Its just not that big a deal any more., just like agriculture.

Oh, it is IMPORTANT, but for the most part its easy.

 

[Not getting younger]

Worldwide economies have been moving to services as the prime source of wealth. Manufacturing is declining in importance. Its just not that big a deal any more., just like agriculture.

Oh, it is IMPORTANT, but for the most part its easy.

we still need to make widgets.
Unless of coarse we are happy to be reliant on China.

 

[Not getting younger]

So, what happened to the staff? I'm pretty old with not the best memory, but I can still remember the pre Covid world, all them years ago. We had problems, but nowhere near the shit show we're witnessing now.

what’s our population today, vs 8 or 10 years ago. There also attrition, shit happens when people work 100-160 hours every two weeks due to staff shortages.
People retire..
Etc

and again. Where’s the $ supposed to come from to hire 10s of thousands. Nor is it just healthcare. We are already in debt beyond our means and we are still borrowing $ every year.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Worldwide economies have been moving to services as the prime source of wealth. Manufacturing is declining in importance. Its just not that big a deal any more., just like agriculture.

Oh, it is IMPORTANT, but for the most part its easy.

Whether Canada has changed in harmony with worldwide trends or not, the loss of manufacturing and resource industry jobs has led to to a hollowing out of the middle class, and that middle class tax base is what funded the public services (like healthcare) that Canadians have come to expect as part of their standard of living. If transitioning to services would preserve the tax base, I'd say it wouldn't be a problem. But it has not worked that way. We have too many people making barrista wages and not enough people making car assembly line wages. We're starting to look more like India, with high levels of employment in the service sector, a vast gulf between the rich and poor, and poor public services.

 

[Anbarandy]

Whether Canada has changed in harmony with worldwide trends or not, the loss of manufacturing and resource industry jobs has led to to a hollowing out of the middle class, and that middle class tax base is what funded the public services (like healthcare) that Canadians have come to expect as part of their standard of living. If transitioning to services would preserve the tax base, I'd say it wouldn't be a problem. But it has not worked that way. We have too many people making barrista wages and not enough people making car assembly line wages. We're starting to look more like India, with high levels of employment in the service sector, a vast gulf between the rich and poor, and poor public services.

Sounds like a clarion call for more, stronger and faster policies to boost unionization and unionized-strength in wage rates that will lead to rebuilding the middle tax base which fund the public services that Canadians have come to expect as part of their standard of living, Karl.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Sounds like a clarion call for more, stronger and faster policies to boost unionization and unionized-strength in wage rates that will lead to rebuilding the middle tax base which fund the public services that Canadians have come to expect as part of their standard of living, Karl.

Although they have a part to play, Unions are not essential to middle class wages, .

Even at the height of unionization in Canada, when unionization was at 38% of the workforce, a great part of that was in the public sector (which doesn't really help the tax base, for obvious reasons). Private sector unionization peaked at 22% and has declined to approximately 15%. The real determinant of middle class wages is the value that labour adds to the product or services, and the market value of that product of service. You can't just wave a wand and pay barristas $50 an hour because their labour isn't WORTH that, and neither is the product they sell. To have an abundance of middle class wage earners you need a significant manufacturing and resource based industry economy.

As to unions, if it weren't for the construction industry (which can't be relocated, for obvious reasons) there'd be practically no union presence in the private sector. But construction would still be valuable work and the labour contribution (at least the skilled labour contribution) to construction would still be significant, even without unions.

And, like usual, you have the sequence backwards. Even it it made sense to increase unionization, you'd only do that AFTER you had high value jobs to unionize, not BEFORE. Again, you can't simply make low value work suddently valuable by waving a magic wand.

 

[barnacler]

we still need to make widgets.
Unless of coarse we are happy to be reliant on China.

Actually, we most assuredly do NOT need to make widgets.

If widgets are insanely cheap elsewhere, why wouldn't we focus on something higher value-added?

 

[barnacler]

Whether Canada has changed in harmony with worldwide trends or not, the loss of manufacturing and resource industry jobs has led to to a hollowing out of the middle class, and that middle class tax base is what funded the public services (like healthcare) that Canadians have come to expect as part of their standard of living. If transitioning to services would preserve the tax base, I'd say it wouldn't be a problem. But it has not worked that way. We have too many people making barrista wages and not enough people making car assembly line wages. We're starting to look more like India, with high levels of employment in the service sector, a vast gulf between the rich and poor, and poor public services.

Assembly line wages are GONE. Ancient history. Oh yes, of course they occasionally appear , a big battery plant here, a new EV vehicle assembly plant there, but they do NOT stem the tide of the movement towards services, design, and creativity.

Besides, who the hell wants to work on an assembly line? And more importantly, why should someone working on an assembly line earn high wages compared to a better educated person with better skills?

There are lots of middle class incomes from services.

 

[wigglee]

Excess government intervention and regulations hamper many good doctors entering the profession and hence it causes lack of doctors almost in all areas and terrible wait times even in ERs. There were cases when people died because medical help did not arrive in time. Appalling!

they've allowed private clinics to hire doctors and nurses, which makes it that much harder for the public system to get staff