Are Tamil's "Real Canadians"

[BoringBob]

Not picking on this one response, but since nobody has said it I will. In most of the postings that describe what being Canadian is, most forget to add the biggest indicator of all... You have to be 'caucasian/white/euro-decent' (you know what I mean). I know it's taboo to say, but let's call a spade a spade.

Nope, not at all. I like many people around here are "hyphenated" in one form or another. In fact, the vast majority of my friends that I consider "canadian" were either born in another country or their parents were (as were my grandparents).

You don't get it. You can live here for an hour and be Canadian if you choose, or you can stay here all your life and still be an outsider. Skin color, ethnic makeup, religeon, whatever, none of that matters.

Oh side note: religion can matter when it blocks someone's ability to be Canadian. Example would be the extremist muslims who won't allow their women out of the house or to interact with other males at a job or in public, or be outdoors without a full covering. That keeps the women from becoming Canadian, which in turn means the menfolk aren't exactly being Canadian either, because equality between the sexes and freedom are two very important parts of our society.

 

[rama putri]

Not picking on this one response, but since nobody has said it I will. In most of the postings that describe what being Canadian is, most forget to add the biggest indicator of all... You have to be 'caucasian/white/euro-decent' (you know what I mean). I know it's taboo to say, but let's call a spade a spade.

That's BS. I will rebuke an Irish Canadian or Italian Canadian just as quickly as any other hyphenated Canadian. In fact I will point out countries like like Ireland and Italy are stable enough, they should buy a one way ticket and leave their Canadian passports behind.

 

[danmand]

The answer is pretty simple, and it isn't related to any single group, it is related to people.

If people immigrate to Canada and become "Canadian" (by integrating into our society, learning to speak the local language, participating however they feel in our society), then yes, they become Canadians. They share canadian values, they respect canadian laws, and (extreme version here) would be proud if their sons and daughters (or husband or wife for that matter) would join the military and fight in the defence of their one true country, Canada.

If people immigrate to Canada only to avoid some issue (real or imagined) and don't integrate into our society, then they aren't Canadians, they are just tolerated long term visitors / residents. Those are the type of people who never learn the language, don't participate in being Canadian, live only within their own "community", pine for home, don't deal with "non-community" members, send their children to "community" schools rather than mainstream, etc. They just want to bring their life and lifestyle from another country and live here, nothing more.

They are not Canadian. They might be Canadian one day (if they choose to join us as Canadians). If they don't,then they are just tolerated visitors, nothing more. Just choosing to live in Canada doesn't make you Canadian.

What kind of nonsense? You and your kind think that you are above the constitution and
the supreme court, and can pontificate on who you consider canadian or not.

Not picking on this one response, but since nobody has said it I will. In most of the postings that describe what being Canadian is, most forget to add the biggest indicator of all... You have to be 'caucasian/white/euro-decent' (you know what I mean). I know it's taboo to say, but let's call a spade a spade.

Even worse nonsense. You guys are pathetic.

 

[The LoLRus]

I wonder if those who have voted no are all white a/s and born here or there is also immigrants that voted no?

For whats its worth, I voted 'yes' and I'm as pasty white as they come

I dated a mulatto stripper 10 years ago and really learned to see life through the eyes of a minority

 

[Toke]

That's BS. I will rebuke an Irish Canadian or Italian Canadian just as quickly as any other hyphenated Canadian. In fact I will point out countries like like Ireland and Italy are stable enough, they should buy a one way ticket and leave their Canadian passports behind.

The point that I was making is that people use many indicators that one can learn in order to assimilate (i.e. language, customs, culture, religion, etc.). However if you are a visible minority there is no way you can change that to assimilate and it is an indicator. I, for all intensive purposes, am as 'Canadian' as anyone, but will never be seen as such because I am a visible minority. All things being equal, an Jewish, Italian, Irish, or whatever can assimilate over time, provided their skin colour; a visible minority will always have that 'marker' on them. If you're 'white' you can be mobile and assimilate. When you're Asian, you always will be seen as that no matter where you move. It's what you look like, not what you are inside. I'm not saying that colour is the end all, but it does play a part.

Here's an example... Ever notice than when people are speaking they often use what the person looks like describe them (i.e. "I met a hot chick last night." vs "I met a hot Asian chick last night.")? It's a descriptive. I'm quite sure that nobody here started the trend, and it's not like I don't do it sometimes.

 

[BoringBob]

What kind of nonsense? You and your kind think that you are above the constitution and
the supreme court, and can pontificate on who you consider canadian or not.




Even worse nonsense. You guys are pathetic.

Actually, it's exactly why there is a difference between citizenship and resident cards / landed immigrant status. There is nothing in the Canadian constitution that forbids or blocks revocation of immigration status for offenders.

The only nonsense is accepting immigrants who can't abide by our laws and societal structures. If they aren't willing to fit in, well, try somewhere else (or go home...). It's a shitty thing to say, but it is the emperor's new clothes of politics. Someone has to say it, because everyone is being too nice about NOT saying it.

 

[Toke]

For whats its worth, I voted 'yes' and I'm as pasty white as they come

I dated a mulatto stripper 10 years ago and really learned to see life through the eyes of a minority

For the record, I too voted 'yes', but am totally against the protests. It's gone too far.

The Western World is often blamed for interfering in foreign affairs, but now we should interfere? There has to be a median. Take Iraq for example.

 

[onthebottom]

What kind of nonsense? You and your kind think that you are above the constitution and
the supreme court, and can pontificate on who you consider canadian or not.




Even worse nonsense. You guys are pathetic.

Did you vote?

OTB

 

[danmand]

Did you vote?

No, I find the poll offensive, and will not dignify it with a vote.

 

[Asterix]

I didn't vote because I don't think it's my place to pass judgement on who Canadians think of as "real" amongst them or not. Lord knows we have enough xenophobic and red neck types down here in the States for me to not cast stones. That said, I must admit I'm a bit surprised by the poll results.

 

[anon1]

No, I find the poll offensive, and will not dignify it with a vote.

Ditto

 

[onthebottom]

No, I find the poll offensive, and will not dignify it with a vote.

How is it offensive? Is the question offensive, or the answers?

OTB

 

[anon1]

How is it offensive? Is the question offensive, or the answers?

Now you are patronizing, which is even more offensive.

 

[someone]

For one thing, your question is trying to judge the loyalty of an entire ethnic group. The fact is that people are individuals. You cannot judge the loyalty of an entire ethnic group (OK, both Canada and the United states did that with citizens and residents of Japanese origins during WW2, but I hope we have made some progress since then). If you read some of the comments of people who did not respond, you will find this was a factor. When you get right down to it, either answer to the question is racist (or at least bigoted as responses may not be based on race).

 

[onthebottom]

For one thing, your question is trying to judge the loyalty of an entire ethnic group. The fact is that people are individuals. You cannot judge the loyalty of an entire ethnic group (OK, both Canada and the United states did that with citizens and residents of Japanese origins during WW2, but I hope we have made some progress since then). If you read some of the comments of people who did not respond, you will find this was a factor. When you get right down to it, either answer to the question is racist (or at least bigoted as responses may not be based on race).

Actually I think the question says nothing about a group of people, it says something about the voter. I used a phrase directly from several posts to quantify this point of view - much to my amazement.

OTB

 

[BoringBob]

For one thing, your question is trying to judge the loyalty of an entire ethnic group. The fact is that people are individuals. You cannot judge the loyalty of an entire ethnic group (OK, both Canada and the United states did that with citizens and residents of Japanese origins during WW2, but I hope we have made some progress since then). If you read some of the comments of people who did not respond, you will find this was a factor. When you get right down to it, either answer to the question is racist (or at least bigoted as responses may not be based on race).

This is another one of the amazing tricks used in these days to keep average people from discussing subjects: "it's racists / bigotry / broadbrush". Oddly, it usually starts out with "you white people are being...". Amazing, isn't it?

I don't think that anyone is being racist or using too broad of a brush here. Too often in debate we are lead away from valid and obvious statistics just to avoid offending someone. Example, while most people won't say it, "african americans" (horseshit term, if you ask me) represent 10-12% of the US population, but a significantly higher percentage of gang members, murder victims, drug dealers, pimps, and so on in the US come from this same group. so if 10% of the population commits 30% of the crimes, perhaps it is an indication of a large problem within that community.

In the end, DWB (driving while black) is just an outshoot of that problem. While we hear the moral outrage cases where an innocent man is pulled over and given the third degree, we rarely hear how often a young black man is pulled over in an expensive car that turns out to be stolen, filled with drugs, or was obtained by illegal means. The media won't report it, because it might "offend" certain groups.

IMHO, they need to be offended. Maybe the will wake up. Heck, you might remember what happened to Bill Cosby when he called out the AE youth for failing to learn english properly, failing to work, failing at school, and failing to be responsible citizens. Instead of turning to the youth and saying "that is true' (or more like "true dat"), they turned on Cosby and called him all sorts of Uncle Tom type names.

The Tamil community in Canada is no different. Perhaps it is a small percentage of the community which causes these problems, but it is then the responsilbity for the larger Tamil community to publicly disown them, to call them out, to brand those that would choose to use terrorist style tactics in Canada so that they can be found and dealt with. Their silence on the issue is the support and protection the maldoers need.

"Snitches get stitches" is a great term that explains how communities get terrorized by their own people. The Tamil people who really want to be Canadian and don't support the violence need to speak up, otherwise the broadbrush will cover them over too.

 

[Quest4Less]

I am no racist - neither do I judge on appearance, religion, or sexual preference (sp?). I have friends that are of all races, religions, sizes and shapes. Some are born in Canada, some have immigrated.

The ones that have immigrated to Canada - ALL of them - have learned English, become citizens, and are loyal to Canada FIRST, LAST, and ALWAYS. They do not try to bring the 'old' ways here. They do not demand service in their old language. They do not demand that Canada try to 'fix' their old country. They are now CANADIANS. This is not to say that they can not care - some send money back to their relatives, some try to sponsor the relatives to come here, some are involved in charities etc...

Not a single one of them hyphenate their status. They are Canadian.

 

[Toke]

This is another one of the amazing tricks used in these days to keep average people from discussing subjects: "it's racists / bigotry / broadbrush". Oddly, it usually starts out with "you white people are being...". Amazing, isn't it?

I don't think that anyone is being racist or using too broad of a brush here. Too often in debate we are lead away from valid and obvious statistics just to avoid offending someone. Example, while most people won't say it, "african americans" (horseshit term, if you ask me) represent 10-12% of the US population, but a significantly higher percentage of gang members, murder victims, drug dealers, pimps, and so on in the US come from this same group. so if 10% of the population commits 30% of the crimes, perhaps it is an indication of a large problem within that community.

In the end, DWB (driving while black) is just an outshoot of that problem. While we hear the moral outrage cases where an innocent man is pulled over and given the third degree, we rarely hear how often a young black man is pulled over in an expensive car that turns out to be stolen, filled with drugs, or was obtained by illegal means. The media won't report it, because it might "offend" certain groups.

IMHO, they need to be offended. Maybe the will wake up. Heck, you might remember what happened to Bill Cosby when he called out the AE youth for failing to learn english properly, failing to work, failing at school, and failing to be responsible citizens. Instead of turning to the youth and saying "that is true' (or more like "true dat"), they turned on Cosby and called him all sorts of Uncle Tom type names.

The Tamil community in Canada is no different. Perhaps it is a small percentage of the community which causes these problems, but it is then the responsilbity for the larger Tamil community to publicly disown them, to call them out, to brand those that would choose to use terrorist style tactics in Canada so that they can be found and dealt with. Their silence on the issue is the support and protection the maldoers need.

"Snitches get stitches" is a great term that explains how communities get terrorized by their own people. The Tamil people who really want to be Canadian and don't support the violence need to speak up, otherwise the broadbrush will cover them over too.

Well put. I agree that while it would appear, relatively speaking, that some 'peoples' are more responsible for certain 'things', it does that group no better when someone else f*cks up. It's hard enough being guilty of 'driving while black' then have to turn the TV on and see another idiot gang-banging.

However, its a cyclical process. If they see themselves portrayed that way, they learn to believe and live that way. When the cops see them portrayed that way, they treat them as such. When teachers see them portrayed that way, they react as such.

It's a very long, and messy issue, but I think I agree with where you're going.

 

[BoringBob]

Well put. I agree that while it would appear, relatively speaking, that some 'peoples' are more responsible for certain 'things', it does that group no better when someone else f*cks up. It's hard enough being guilty of 'driving while black' then have to turn the TV on and see another idiot gang-banging.

However, its a cyclical process. If they see themselves portrayed that way, they learn to believe and live that way. When the cops see them portrayed that way, they treat them as such. When teachers see them portrayed that way, they react as such.

It's a very long, and messy issue, but I think I agree with where you're going.

It's sort of a community thing, if you look at it that way. If a community doesn't want to get branded as troublemakers, they have a certain amount of responsibility to take on the issue themselves, rather than just ignoring it with a "my people have always been like that". If a smaller number of Tamils in Toronto insist on making trouble (such as blocking highways or even potentially violent acts), then the other members of the community need to point the finger and go "they are the ones causing the problem" and help police to resolve the issue before it gets out of hand.

Giving cover to trouble makers, allowing the to blend into a bigger community and then say "well, we don't know who is involved" is aiding and abetting, pure and simple. If they don't want to discover DWT (driving while Tamil), they might want to consider taking some responsibility.

A note on street gangs: underage gang members are a real issue. Parental tolerance is a real issue here, hoping your child will grow out of it isn't going to help. The problem of street gangs comes directly from the home, from parents giving up on their kids and not getting involved. It's a community issue, it's an attitude issue, and it's something that needs to be addressed. Quite simply, it isn't always "random" or someone else's kid. The parents need support and need to take their responsibilities too.

 

[Toke]

A note on street gangs: underage gang members are a real issue. Parental tolerance is a real issue here, hoping your child will grow out of it isn't going to help. The problem of street gangs comes directly from the home, from parents giving up on their kids and not getting involved. It's a community issue, it's an attitude issue, and it's something that needs to be addressed. Quite simply, it isn't always "random" or someone else's kid. The parents need support and need to take their responsibilities too.

Exactly. Parents today tolerate too much for too long. Hoping they grow out of it is great... what if they don't? Another problem is that for the parents that want to do something and are 'out of options' the police can't intervene until 'shit happens' and by then it's too late. If society was really interested in fixing community problems, they gotta get into the community and get to the begining of the problem. Waiting until something happens is way past too late.

Sorry to get off topic regarding the thread's purpose.