Arab Zionism. Hamas/Hezbollah/Palestinians (some, not all)

[Darts]

Some/many/most people consider any criticism of Muslims Islamophobia, racist, racism, bigotry, etc.

 

[mandrill]

4. The Muslim world has never genocided the Jews. The only ones to ever genocide the Jews were white people, from Europe. The Muslims always lived with Jews peacefully. In a miraculous, yet rather weirdly predictable fashion, the ones committing genocide against the Palestinians, seem to be the white Jews from Europe! Something about being white and European, must program one to be immensely racist and genocidal. Perhaps there is something in the water in Europe that is passed down for generations. I mean just look here on TERB with all the white genocide supporters, who have nothing to do with Israel!

Kauty, the reason that the Muslim people have never genocided Jews is that they've fucked up every opportunity through cowardice and incompetence - 1948, 1956. 1967, 1972......

Extremist Muslims would LOVE to genocide the Jews and massacre Jews whenever they can - i.e. 7 October.

 

[mandrill]

The words I have for them is that they are Jew haters.
They try to project their own hate on them by saying they are 'self hating' but its them doing the hating.

Maybe Hamas shouldn't turn them those places into military locations then?

 

[Darts]

"Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine,[3][4][5][6] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition."

I think Zionism only applies to Jews.

We need to find another word/term for Islamic expansionism. How did a religion founded in a small Arabian town grow to be the largest empire in the world encompassing 2 billion followers? How did they almost conquered (and might still) Europe, all of India, Africa and the Philippines? The only reason North and South America were untouched was because they weren't very good sailors.

 

[mandrill]

Palestine was only about 10% Jewish.
Seems to me that Germany should have had to pay the price of the holocaust, not Palestine.

Ontario was only 0% white and 100% Huron and Algonquin. So?

 

[Darts]

Kauty, the reason that the Muslim people have never genocided Jews is that they've fucked up every opportunity through cowardice and incompetence - 1948, 1956. 1967, 1972......

Extremist Muslims would LOVE to genocide the Jews and massacre Jews whenever they can - i.e. 7 October.

Let's not forget the money and material support Israel receives from the West. However, that support from the West is starting to decline.

 

[shack]

Iran was a democracy until 1953 when they tried to nationalize their oil and the US/UK supported a coup that put the theocrats in power. Lebanon was a very diverse and fairly successful democracy, the Paris of the middle east, until invasions by Israel created the Hezbollah resistance and Palestinian refugees became more militant. Iraq was autocratic, but ran successfully until the US backed Saddam and an attack on Iran. Egypt has always teetered between corrupt politicians and military leaders, who were more trusted. Turkey was quite democratic though Erdogan has become more rump like. Tunisia, Morocco, all have had turns.

Do you notice a pattern here? Nobody can maintain a stable democratic state. And do you know why, it's because of the violent religious zealots. They screw it up every time because of their unwillingness to accept any way other than their own. The reject the idea of compromise.

These days you have to go to northern EU states, the UK and US are having serious issues. Canada is ok but suffering from housing/inequality.
You confuse democratic success with end state capitalism, where you see the US as a success despite electing people who answer only to lobbyists and corporate interests rule over citizens.

Those Yemenis, Sudanese, Syrians etc. sure have it good in terms of comparisons. We have those horrible housing issue problems, while you guys only have to deal with civil wars. If things are so bad here, why don't you move to their better way of life?

Israel is apartheid and rules through 3 levels of apartheid, as documented multiple times here.
Its not democratic, you can't be apartheid and democratic.

You can't not have elections for 17 years and be democratic. By the very definition, no elections is the 180 degree opposite of democratic. Linking apartheid with democracy is a much more tenuous argument to make. They deal with different things. No elections and democracy are dealing with the exact same thing.

Israel chose to be a Jewish state over democracy.

Thank you for pointing that out. That is EXACTLY what Hamas wants. That helps prove my point that they both strive for the same goals. A Zionist is a Zionist. The only thing that is different is the religion and you say that religion has no bearing. You don't hate Jews, you just hate Zionists. Right?

It's the policies and tactics, not the religion. Between the Israelis and the Arabs/Hamas, as I have pointed out and you have confirmed, they are identical.

 

[mandrill]

People used to argue that there was a genetic basis to racism, but the genetics show there is more diversity within any one group than identifying features. Same with attitudes. If you take a smaller sample size you'll still see a diverse range of views.

Regions will still skew in different directions. Hence my Alabama / SF comparison. And the ME simply doesn't have strong institutions. It reverts to violence and religious fundamentalism easily.

Iran was a democracy until 1953 when they tried to nationalize their oil and the US/UK supported a coup that put the theocrats in power. Lebanon was a very diverse and fairly successful democracy, the Paris of the middle east, until invasions by Israel created the Hezbollah resistance and Palestinian refugees became more militant. Iraq was autocratic, but ran successfully until the US backed Saddam and an attack on Iran. Egypt has always teetered between corrupt politicians and military leaders, who were more trusted. Turkey was quite democratic though Erdogan has become more rump like. Tunisia, Morocco, all have had turns.

You're confused. Iran: - 1953 - 1980 was the Shah. The ayatollahs come in 1980-ish.

Lebanon - Israel invaded Lebanon in response to the civil war and Hezbollah.

Iraq was always awful. Remember SH nerve gassing the Kurds.

Egypt can't sustain democracy. NONE of them can. THAT'S my point. You can jerk off all weekend telling yourself that the "west caused political repression and religious fundamentalism in the ME", but it's simply not true. MENA is fucked up and cannot produce democracies.

Hamas had a chance to create a democracy in Gaza and - if they did - I would support them. But no. They engaged in a civil war with the PA, killed or exiled the latters adherents, created a warlord / terrorist militia state and embraced religious fundamentalism. Just like the Hooties. Exact same shit.

Come on, Frankie. Admit there's a pattern. If Hamas got control of Palestine, it would reproduce Gaza on a massive scale and stone gays to death each afternoon for fun. Just like it does right now.

These days you have to go to northern EU states, the UK and US are having serious issues. Canada is ok but suffering from housing/inequality.
You confuse democratic success with end state capitalism, where you see the US as a success despite electing people who answer only to lobbyists and corporate interests rule over citizens.

Yeh. Life in Yemen and Somalia is a lot better than Toronto. That darn "end state capitalism" wrecked everything. I could wear a green bandana, get an AK and kill people in Oshawa if I lived in an Arab country.

Israel is apartheid and rules through 3 levels of apartheid, as documented multiple times here.
Its not democratic, you can't be apartheid and democratic.
Israel chose to be a Jewish state over democracy.

Why does Israel have elections then Frankie?

C'mon mandrill, Israel is likely about as old as you are.
You must remember.

Well, one of us has the brainpower of a 12 year old. That's pretty true.

 

[shack]

Well, firstly, thanks for acknowledging that Zionist Jews from Israel and from the west, want this for the Palestinians. You have been acknowledging, all the injustices Israel visits upon the Palestinians lately, even if unwittingly so. I know, it is impossible to ignore something so blatant.

As I qualified in my first couple of posts, I do not necessarily agree some of the things I said, but they conformed to franks interpretation of thing. e.g., I don't believe that Israel is committing genocide but you and frank do. So even accepting what you KKK claim of Israel, Hamas and many Palestinians are guilty of the same accusations.

That said:

1. Some extremist Muslims do, sure. The majority of Palestinians however, who are not Hamas by the way, want to just live their lives. Yes, they believe there is no peace possible with Israel - because Israel has brought it to this. So it is incumbent upon Israel to change that perception by taking earnest steps towards a) Peace and b) Work on complete Palestinian sovereignty - economically, morally, politically c) Acknowledge that a) and b) are NOT mutually exclusive.[/QUOTE]
I agree....for those Palestinians? Then there is Hamas and the supposedly 80% of Palestinians that support Hamas. To them, those things are mutually exclusive. Hamas wants to drive all Jews from Israel, so the part about peace, is an alien concept to them. Please refer back to the title of this post. Hamas and some Palestinians are Arab Zionists.

2. Some extremist Muslims do, sure. The majority don't. They want to be peaceful. The evidence is right in front of your eyes. The 20% of Israel's population who are citizens, are peaceful Arab citizens. You know who treats them like crap? Jews. [/QUOTE] LOL. Those Arab Israeli citizens feel thankful to be so. They get treated better and more equally by the Israelis than they would ever be treated by the terrorist Hamas regime.


They face a lot of systemic racism and there are even groups within Israel who campaign that Israeli Jewish citizens not marry or have relationships with Muslims. That is how racist Israel is.[/QUOTE]So the Muslims of Hamas are cool with interfaith marriage for their children? Their daughter can marry a Jewish boy.

3. Sure. Nothing wrong with that. So are Zionist, Orthodox Jews of which Israel has many.[/QUOTE]So you are agreeing with another similarity between Israeli Zionists and Arab Zionists.

4. The Muslim world has never genocided the Jews.[/QUOTE] They've sure tried. Even with their huge population advantage they haven't figured out how to pull that one off. It sounds like there's some kind of flaw that they haven't been able to overcome.

The only ones to ever genocide the Jews were white people, from Europe.

The only reason Jews do not exist in Muslim nations, is because of Israel's policy to resettle Jews from other countries in present day Israel. That effort started in the 19th century, with the Rothschilds, spending 40 million francs to create Kibutzes and continued after the establishment of Israel in 1948. The persecution Jews faced after 1948, was purely retaliatory in nature after the Nakba - yet despite this, Jews continue living in those countries as well, and are doing so peacefully.

5. Hamas does. Not PLO that is considered the defacto representatives of Palestinians on the world stage. The PLO is secular. Unlike Israel that wants a religious ethno-state.
[/QUOTE]

 

[shack]

Well, firstly, thanks for acknowledging that Zionist Jews from Israel and from the west, want this for the Palestinians. You have been acknowledging, all the injustices Israel visits upon the Palestinians lately, even if unwittingly so. I know, it is impossible to ignore something so blatant.

That said:

1. Some extremist Muslims do, sure. The majority of Palestinians however, who are not Hamas by the way, want to just live their lives. Yes, they believe there is no peace possible with Israel - because Israel has brought it to this. So it is incumbent upon Israel to change that perception by taking earnest steps towards a) Peace and b) Work on complete Palestinian sovereignty - economically, morally, politically c) Acknowledge that a) and b) are NOT mutually exclusive.

2. Some extremist Muslims do, sure. The majority don't. They want to be peaceful. The evidence is right in front of your eyes. The 20% of Israel's population who are citizens, are peaceful Arab citizens. You know who treats them like crap? Jews. They face a lot of systemic racism and there are even groups within Israel who campaign that Israeli Jewish citizens not marry or have relationships with Muslims. That is how racist Israel is.

3. Sure. Nothing wrong with that. So are Zionist, Orthodox Jews of which Israel has many. So are many evangelical Christians or devout Hindus.

4. The Muslim world has never genocided the Jews. The only ones to ever genocide the Jews were white people, from Europe. The Muslims always lived with Jews peacefully. In a miraculous, yet rather weirdly predictable fashion, the ones committing genocide against the Palestinians, seem to be the white Jews from Europe! Something about being white and European, must program one to be immensely racist and genocidal. Perhaps there is something in the water in Europe that is passed down for generations. I mean just look here on TERB with all the white genocide supporters, who have nothing to do with Israel!

The only reason Jews do not exist in Muslim nations, is because of Israel's policy to resettle Jews from other countries in present day Israel. That effort started in the 19th century, with the Rothschilds, spending 40 million francs to create Kibutzes and continued after the establishment of Israel in 1948. The persecution Jews faced after 1948, was purely retaliatory in nature after the Nakba - yet despite this, Jews continue living in those countries as well, and are doing so peacefully.

5. Hamas does. Not PLO that is considered the defacto representatives of Palestinians on the world stage. The PLO is secular. Unlike Israel that wants a religious ethno-state.

shack
Nitpicker Extraordinaire


22 minutes ago

• New
• Add bookmark
• #32

Kautilya said:
Well, firstly, thanks for acknowledging that Zionist Jews from Israel and from the west, want this for the Palestinians. You have been acknowledging, all the injustices Israel visits upon the Palestinians lately, even if unwittingly so. I know, it is impossible to ignore something so blatant.

As I qualified in my first couple of posts, I do not necessarily agree some of the things I said, but they conformed to franks interpretation of thing. e.g., I don't believe that Israel is committing genocide but you and frank do. So even accepting what you KKK claim of Israel, Hamas and many Palestinians are guilty of the same accusations.

That said:

1. Some extremist Muslims do, sure. The majority of Palestinians however, who are not Hamas by the way, want to just live their lives. Yes, they believe there is no peace possible with Israel - because Israel has brought it to this. So it is incumbent upon Israel to change that perception by taking earnest steps towards a) Peace and b) Work on complete Palestinian sovereignty - economically, morally, politically c) Acknowledge that a) and b) are NOT mutually exclusive.[/QUOTE]
I agree....for those Palestinians? Then there is Hamas and the supposedly 80% of Palestinians that support Hamas. To them, those things are mutually exclusive. Hamas wants to drive all Jews from Israel, so the part about peace, is an alien concept to them. Please refer back to the title of this post. Hamas and some Palestinians are Arab Zionists.

2. Some extremist Muslims do, sure. The majority don't. They want to be peaceful. The evidence is right in front of your eyes. The 20% of Israel's population who are citizens, are peaceful Arab citizens. You know who treats them like crap? Jews. [/QUOTE] LOL. Those Arab Israeli citizens feel thankful to be so. They get treated better and more equally by the Israelis than they would ever be treated by the terrorist Hamas regime.


They face a lot of systemic racism and there are even groups within Israel who campaign that Israeli Jewish citizens not marry or have relationships with Muslims. That is how racist Israel is.[/QUOTE]So the Muslims of Hamas are cool with interfaith marriage for their children? Their daughter can marry a Jewish boy.

3. Sure. Nothing wrong with that. So are Zionist, Orthodox Jews of which Israel has many.[/QUOTE]So you are agreeing with another similarity between Israeli Zionists and Arab Zionists.

4. The Muslim world has never genocided the Jews.[/QUOTE] They've sure tried. Even with their huge population advantage they haven't figured out how to pull that one off. It sounds like there's some kind of flaw that they haven't been able to overcome.

The only ones to ever genocide the Jews were white people, from Europe.

The only reason Jews do not exist in Muslim nations, is because of Israel's policy to resettle Jews from other countries in present day Israel. That effort started in the 19th century, with the Rothschilds, spending 40 million francs to create Kibutzes and continued after the establishment of Israel in 1948. The persecution Jews faced after 1948, was purely retaliatory in nature after the Nakba - yet despite this, Jews continue living in those countries as well, and are doing so peacefully.

5. Hamas does. Not PLO that is considered the defacto representatives of Palestinians on the world stage. The PLO is secular. Unlike Israel that wants a religious ethno-state.
[/QUOTE]

 

[basketcase]

In these times you always need to cite references to your work in order to avoid accusations of plagiarism.
For instance, its clear you should have cited:
Veltman - A White Awakening

No surprise you've read Veltman's manifesto.

It would be reasonable to call out Mandi on his statements saying " Muslims do not believe in democracy" but it would also be reasonable for you to try and refute the points made.

The fact is that you will never condemn any extremist group that hates Israel because you feel the ends justifies the means.

 

[basketcase]

Differences:

Muslim extremists aren't fixated on 1 piece of land. They're more concerned with exterminating unbelievers in general.

Muslim extremists also kill co-religionists if they don't believe in the same version of their faith.

Muslim extremists fights civil wars with other Muslims (See above).

Muslim extremists have regressive policies against women and gays.

Muslims do not believe in democracy and their variants are either conservative state-authoritarianism (Syria, Jordan, Egypt) or theocratic authoritarianism (Iran, Hooties, ISIS. AQ, Hezbollah, Hamas) or a combination (Erdogan's Turkey).

Muslim extremists rely on the "mass mobilization" method of controlling society. Spying at the neighbourhood level. Forced attendance at government mandated events. Coercion including abduction, torture, gang rape and public execution and display of bodies. Indoctrination in the regime's "mission" - i.e. genocide of Jews, Shia / Sunni opposition / Christians - from a young age and throughout life. Creation of armed thug militias to terrorize the population and keep it submissive.

Zionists might have views on seizing Arab land that few support in the West, but are generally reasonably close to other western values on morals and democratic participation.

Obviously there is a diversity of opinions, even among Islamic extremist beliefs but the middling belief is in reclaiming the all land that was once Islamic including Spain. Jews in Israel is a bigger concern because a) Jerusalem is in the Middle East and b) The Koran does have some very negative portrayals of Muhamed's Jewish neighbours.

And it sounds pretty racist to say Muslims don't believe in democracy. It would be correct to say though that the current Arab world does not have any countries we would describe as true democracies. Turkey is generally democratic and Muslim but not Arab. Lebanon has tried but has been mired in inter-ethnic conflicts (that Frank will blame on Israel).

Democracy in the Middle East and North Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

 

[basketcase]

There is no such thing as Arab Zionism.
...

So why do repeated polls show a vast majority of Arab Israelis want to remain Israeli?

 

[basketcase]

...

Iran was a democracy until 1953 when they ...

Umm, you should really look in to the history of Iran because it was hardly ever a functioning democracy for very long, rather an alleged constitutional monarchy with massive corruption in their elections.

 

[basketcase]

Palestine was only about 10% Jewish.
Seems to me that Germany should have had to pay the price of the holocaust, not Palestine.
...

And the million Arab Jews should have remained marginalized and persecuted minorities in the homes?

The Ottoman Empire was a bit over 1% Jewish in 1906. When it was broken up into ethnic states, why shouldn't 1% of the land go to Jews?

 

[basketcase]

...

4. The Muslim world has never genocided the Jews. ...

They sure ethnically cleansed them though.

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[basketcase]

You are completely misunderstanding what Zionism means my dude...
...

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more


noun
noun: Zionism

1. a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

 

[basketcase]

Zionism is against the Torah. Jews are a diaspera and are not supposed to return to Israel until the messiah comes as the messiah has not come we have no reason to be there.
...

So your argument is we should all live our lives in thrall of ancient religious texts? Okay then.

 

[basketcase]

...

can yu explain why nobody called for a palestinian state between 1949 and 1967 when the west bank was part of Jordan the Gaza was part of egypt?
...

The PLO actually did but significantly targeted the Jordanian rulers.

Black September - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[basketcase]

Yet it is never anyone other than the Jews that you demonize and only post tweets that paint Israel in a bad light. Why do never post tweets about these "bad Palestinians or bad Muslims"? It's always just the Jews. You only post about Pali injuries, never Jewish ones.
...

Wait, are you saying Frank won't complain about Turkey's recent strikes on Kurdish group sin Syria and Iraq?