Apartheid analogy common among Israel's left

[fuji]

You are just totally ignoring the facts now, completely disconnected from reality, mouthing lies that have been utterly refuted. You look pretty stupid doing that.

[size=+3]-- OHCHR repeats many times that Falk is independent[/size]

[size=+3]-- OHCHR does not say anywhere that they endorse his reports[/size]

[size=+3]-- OHCHR publishes special procedures material as an administrative duty[/size]

[size=+3]-- OHCHR says his reports are inputs to their process, not outputs[/size]

[size=+3]-- Falk's mandate says that he does not speak for anybody but himself[/size]

[size=+3]-- Falk's reports say they are being transmitted TO, not from the UN[/size]


You can sit there and tell lies all day and these will still be the facts. Neither Falk, OHCHR, nor the UN agrees with your nonsense made up bullshit.

 

[groggy]

You are just totally ignoring the facts now, completely disconnected from reality, mouthing lies that have been utterly refuted. You look pretty stupid doing that.

[size=-1]-- OHCHR repeats many times that Falk is independent[/size]

Straw man. They say he is independent to be unbiased, his reports are clearly not independent reports, they are UN reports.

[size=-1]-- OHCHR does not say anywhere that they endorse his reports[/size]

If they found fault with his reports he would have been removed from office, as Israel tried to do numerous times.

[size=-1]-- OHCHR publishes special procedures material as an administrative duty[/size]

In order to maintain their unbiased reporting they hire an independent investigator of serious credibility and don't edit his reports.
As it is mandated and as it should be.
But he's still investigating according to UN rules and protocols on behalf of the UN and for the UN and the public.

[size=1-]-- OHCHR says his reports are inputs to their process, not outputs[/size]

Bullshit, his reports are also submitted to the UN GA as outputs.

[size=-1]-- Falk's mandate says that he does not speak for anybody but himself[/size]

Bullshit, his mandate is to report according to UN rules, international law and protocol on behalf of the UN.

[size=-1]-- Falk's reports say they are being transmitted TO, not from the UN[/size]

They are transmitted to the UN and to the public via the OHCHR website, press releases and reports.


You can sit there and tell lies all day and these will still be the facts.
The UN has called Israel apartheid.




Wow, you have to really work hard to avoid talking about apartheid, don't you?
You know full well that you can't answer any more to criticism's of apartheid so are left with admistrative arguments, you can't attack the reports or defend Israel from the chargs of apartheid any more, can you?

This is as good as your arguments get.
Very sad.

 

[fuji]

They say he is independent to be unbiased, his reports are clearly not independent reports, they are UN reports.

Sorry but they clearly are independent, whether or not you like it -- which you apparently don't, because you have taken to lying blatantly, shamelessly, and stupidly.

Independent external agents don't go around arbitrarily making up opinions for the organization that hired them, you need to look up the word "independent" in your Farsi/English dictionary, and tell the ayatollah that you need a refund on your ESL course because you didn't get your money's worth.

If they found fault with his reports he would have been removed from office, as Israel tried to do numerous times.

OHCHR has no power to remove him, this is just clown bullshit made up by you like all your other lies.

It is also just bullshit groggy nonsense to claim that anyone would remove him from office simply for DISAGREEING with his report -- that totally contradicts the concept that he is independent. If he is required to agree with the UN's opinion, then he is not independent at all.

In order to maintain their unbiased reporting they hire an independent investigator of serious credibility and don't edit his reports.

Which pretty much ends the debate -- he is independent. Not the UN. They are inputs to the UN process, not outputs. They are not written on behalf of the UN, they are delivered TO the UN, for the UN to consider.

Bullshit, his reports are also submitted to the UN GA as outputs.

That isn't what it says in the OHCHR operating manual, whether you like it or not, they are inputs. That is why the reports say they are being "transmitted to" the UN, rather than being from the UN. They are being given to the UN for the UN to consider.

Bullshit, his mandate is to report according to UN rules, international law and protocol on behalf of the UN.

Nope, you made that up. It is just mindless, stupid, made up Groggy bullshit. He DOES NOT do anything on behalf of anybody but himself, there is nothing like that in his mandate. You keep trying to insert the phrase "on behalf of" into his mandate, but we quoted his whole mandate and those words ARE NOT THERE. You can't just make them up. If they aren't there, he isn't entitled to do it. He is not authorized to speak on behalf of the UN. Period.

They are transmitted to the UN and to the public via the OHCHR website, press releases and reports.

Wow, you actually wrote something true. Amazing!

Why don't you keep doing that and stop with the idiotic lies that have been thoroughly refuted. All you are doing is proving that you are a miserable fucking clown and a troll with no integrity by denying obvious facts.

 

[groggy]

Wow, you actually wrote something true. Amazing!

Still stuck with administrative arguments?
It must be hard when your only defense against charges of apartheid is by arguing whether or not the rapporteur is independent.
Talk about sad little arguments.



Meanwhile, whether you view Falk to be independent or not, the site that represents the UN on issues for Israeli human rights issues clearly has Falk's work published at the top of its list.
They could easily bury it if they wanted to, but they don't, its right there on the front page.

Clearly the UN has investigated and found Israel to be apartheid.
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/countries/ME...s/PSIndex.aspx


Whether or not Falk reported independently his reports are now published on the page that states the UN's findings on Israel human rights.

 

[fuji]

Still stuck with administrative arguments?

Just as soon as you stop lying scout the administrative situation, I will stop exposing your lies about it. Falk doors not speak for the UN.

Meanwhile, whether you view Falk to be independent or not, the site that represents the UN on issues for Israeli human rights issues clearly has Falk's work published at the top of its list.

You keep trying to read that as some sort of sly, unstated oendorsement, but their operating manual proved that to be false. They post those reports because they are required to. They do not consider them OHCHR reports.

In any case no UN agency endorses something without explicitly saying si. You have failed to provide ANY evidence that OHCHR endorses Falk. Zip. Nada. Not a single statement anywhere, but there are LOTS calling him independent and saying his reports are INPUTS.

THEY ACTUALLY EXPLICITLY CALL THEM INPUTS.

Any normal person would accept the clearly documented facts, but you are not normal. You are a pathetic lying troll.

 

[groggy]

Just as soon as you stop lying scout the administrative situation, I will stop exposing your lies about it. Falk doors not speak for the UN. You keep trying to read that as some sort of sly, unstated oendorsement, but their operating manual proved that to be false. They post those reports because they are required to. They do not consider them OHCHR reports. In any case no UN agency endorses something without explicitly saying si. You have failed to provide ANY evidence that OHCHR endorses Falk. Zip. Nada. Not a single statement anywhere, but there are LOTS calling him independent and saying his reports are INPUTS. THEY ACTUALLY EXPLICITLY CALL THEM INPUTS. Any normal person would accept the clearly documented facts, but you are not normal. You are a pathetic lying troll.

Any normal person can just go to the UN site that is the voice of the UN on the matter themselves.

There they will read that the UN says Israel is apartheid.

Easy peasy

 

[fuji]

Any normal person can just go to the UN site that is the voice of the UN on the matter themselves.

OK, I went to that site and saw where it clearly and explicitly states that the special rapporteur is independent of the UN, and that his work is an input to be considered by OHCHR, not an output.

Just quit your idiot clown dance, you have been refuted, and your claims were ludicrous to begin with.

The UN appointing outsiders to make up UN policy on the fly without review? Formally endorsing reports just by making them available? You are retarded. And, now, explicitly and formally proved wrong with detailed references.

 

[groggy]

OK, I went to that site and saw where it clearly and explicitly states that the special rapporteur is independent of the UN.

That statement is a lie.
Nowhere does it say he is independent of the UN.
He was appointed by the UN, expenses paid by the UN, uses UN support staff and reports to the UN.

Clearly you are lying again.


The UN says Israel is apartheid and fuji is lying to deflect criticism.

 

[fuji]

OHCHR operating manual for special rapporteurs:

D. Status of mandate-holders

1. Independence

11. Mandate-holders are selected on the basis of their expertise and experience in the area of the mandate, personal integrity, independence and impartiality and objectivity. The I
Independent status of the mandate-holders is crucial in order to enable them to fulfill their functions in all impartiality. As observed by the SecretaryGeneral, "in the i absence of complete independence , human rights mandate-holders and special rapporteurs would hesitate to speak out against and report violations of international human rights standards". This independence is, however, in no way inconsistent with mandate-holders right to engage in dialogue with, and to seek information, and financial and other support from, a wide range of actors.

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/SP/Manual_Operations2008.pdf

 

[fuji]

First sentence on the OHCHR website page on special rapporteurs:

"The special procedures of the Human Rights Council are independent human rights experts with mandates to report and advise on human rights from a thematic or country-specific perspective."

http://www.ohchr.org/en/HRBodies/SP/Pages/Welcomepage.aspx

 

[groggy]

First sentence on the OHCHR website page on special rapporteurs:

"The special procedures of the Human Rights Council are independent human rights experts with mandates to report and advise on human rights from a thematic or country-specific perspective."

http://www.ohchr.org/en/HRBodies/SP/Pages/Welcomepage.aspx

Wow, I must say you are really quite boring.
But ok, lets look at the next sentences as well:

The system of Special Procedures is a central element of the United Nations human rights machinery and covers all human rights: civil, cultural, economic, political, and social. As of 1 October 2013 there are 37 thematic and 14 country mandates.

With the support of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), special procedures undertake country visits; act on individual cases and concerns of a broader, structural nature by sending communications to States and others in which they bring alleged violations or abuses to their attention; conduct thematic studies and convene expert consultations, contribute to the development of international human rights standards, engage in advocacy, raise public awareness, and provide advice for technical cooperation. Special procedures report annually to the Human Rights Council; the majority of the mandates also reports to the General Assembly. Their tasks are defined in the resolutions creating or extending their mandates.

and at the bottom:

Code of Conduct and working methods

The Code of Conduct adopted by the Council in 2007 and the Manual of operations adopted by special procedures mandate holders during their Annual Meeting in 2008 provide guidelines on the working methods of special procedures. Mandate holders also established an Internal Advisory Procedure to review practices and working methods, which allows any stakeholder to bring issues relating to working methods and conduct to the attention of the Coordination Committee. The procedure was devised to enhance the independence and effectiveness of special procedures and cooperation by States, and to contribute to the self-regulation of the special procedures system and of individual mandate holders. In 2008 the Human Rights Council adopted a Presidential statement concerning the terms of special procedures mandate holders and their compliance with the Code of Conduct.

Which means that Israel is free to bring real complaints to the UN and get him removed if he doesn't act according to the rules or report fairly.

And of course they tried a few times, but his work and reports are accurate which is why you and Israel are stuck with these boring admin/mandate arguments.

Because actually debating Israel's apartheid makes you shit your pants, doesn't it?

The UN says Israel is apartheid.

 

[fuji]

Wow, I must say you are really quite boring.
But ok, lets look at the next sentences as well:

None of which say he speaks on behalf of the UN. That just reiterates what his mandate says, and makes no mention of him being authorized to speak on behalf of the UN. It limits him to sending hid reports to the UN for their consideration.

Which means that Israel is free to bring real complaints to the UN and get him removed if he doesn't act according to the rules or report fairly.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that he is independent and does not speak on behalf of the UN. Note that having a wrong opinion or a different opinion than the UN does not violate the code of conduct. He cannot be removed simply for being wrong.

Moreover, OHCHR has no power to remove him, UNHCR is separate from OHCHR. OHCHR has to keep making his reports public even if they thought they were wrong and biased, only UNHCR controls his mandate and appointment.

In any case, none of that changes the fact that he is independent and does not speak for the UN.

You can accurately say that Richard Falk has accused Israel of being an apartheid state, but he is not the UN, he does not speak on behalf of the UN, and the UN has not endorsed that statement.

 

[basketcase]

Just to take a break from the interpretations of what is actually said, the South African leader who presided over the demise of Apartheid says Israel isn't.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/south-africas-de-klerk-israel-not-an-apartheid-state/

 

[groggy]

None of which say he speaks on behalf of the UN. That just reiterates what his mandate says, and makes no mention of him being authorized to speak on behalf of the UN. It limits him to sending hid reports to the UN for their consideration. Which has nothing to do with the fact that he is independent and does not speak on behalf of the UN. Note that having a wrong opinion or a different opinion than the UN does not violate the code of conduct. He cannot be removed simply for being wrong. Moreover, OHCHR has no power to remove him, UNHCR is separate from OHCHR. OHCHR has to keep making his reports public even if they thought they were wrong and biased, only UNHCR controls his mandate and appointment. In any case, none of that changes the fact that he is independent and does not speak for the UN. You can accurately say that Richard Falk has accused Israel of being an apartheid state, but he is not the UN, he does not speak on behalf of the UN, and the UN has not endorsed that statement.

If you want to talk independent reports we can start with the Russell reports .

Here we are talking UN reports.

The UN says Israel is apartheid.

 

[fuji]

Keep doing your fucking ridiculous clown dance. You are entirely against the facts, trying to beat back an ocean of evidence that overwhelmingly refutes you.

And just to add one more wave to that ocean of overwhelming evidence: Thank you for mentioning the Russell Tribunal, and clearly agreeing that it is not UN material, that it is external, independent stuff that does not carry the stamp of the UN. The OHCHR also has all that material posted up on their website for reference as well, clearly proving that their posting material up is not in any way an endorsement, but just a function of making sure everybody has access to everything.

The OHCHR operating manual clearly refutes your idiotic clown claims, they assert that Falk is independent and that his work is an input. Falk does not speak on behalf of the UN, and the UN has not endorsed his report.

Any normal person would accept that fact and move on, but you are not a normal person -- you are a fanatic who cannot accept the truth and you have turned yourself in to a clown trying to defend lies.

 

[groggy]

Keep doing your fucking ridiculous clown dance. You are entirely against the facts, trying to beat back an ocean of evidence that overwhelmingly refutes you.

And just to add one more wave to that ocean of overwhelming evidence: Thank you for mentioning the Russell Tribunal, and clearly agreeing that it is not UN material, that it is external, independent stuff that does not carry the stamp of the UN. The OHCHR also has all that material posted up on their website for reference as well, clearly proving that their posting material up is not in any way an endorsement, but just a function of making sure everybody has access to everything.

.

The Russell Tribunal was an independent legal investigation into Israel's apartheid practice. Its exactly what you claim Falk's report is, but note the multitude of differences.
Here's their letter to the UN through CERD (which also finds Israel guilty of apartheid practices).
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/ngos/RussellTribunalOnPalestine_Israel80.pdf

That is an independent report which contributed to another UN finding of apartheid practices from Israel.

But Falks are different in so many ways:
Falk was appointed to the UN
Falk fulfilled their mandated role
Falk used UN resources
Falk reported to the UN an publicly
Falk was mandated to report publicly and be a public activist
The UN posts his reports with UN letterhead, on their UN page they claim as the voice for the UN on Israel human rights issues.


All this just to avoid the pant shitting actual discussion of Israel's apartheid practices or the contents of his or the Russell Tribunal's reports?
You really don't have any defences left for those charges, do you?


The UN says Israel is apartheid, Falk's report is just one of four instances.

 

[fuji]

The Russell Tribunal was an independent legal investigation

And it is on the OHCHR site, proving yet again that just being on the site is not an endorsement. You have no reason whatsoever to think OHCHR endorses Falk's report.

On the contrary, OHCHR explicitly says that Falk is independent and that his his reports are an input to OHCHR processes. Falk's reports themselves do not claim to be from the UN. Falk's mandate does not entitle him to speak on behalf of the UN.

WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DISPUTING?

You have no argument, you are just throwing a tantrum.

 

[groggy]

WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DISPUTING?

You have no argument, you are just throwing a tantrum.

Hey, you can't accuse me of throwing a tantrum in a post with all caps.
That's just too funny not to comment on.


The Russell Tribunal was an independent report that added to the finding of the UN CERD report calling Israel apartheid.
That one you can call independent.

But the UN appointed rapporteur acted according to his UN stated mandate and provided a UN letterheaded report published on the UN voice for Israel Human Rights.
The UN says Israel is apartheid.



Its just a shame that you are so afraid of shitting your pants by discussing why you support shooting children to defend the ICJ ruled illegal apartheid wall that your only argument is based on the word 'independent'.

That, sir, is shameful.
As is your defence of shooting civilians to protect an apartheid wall.

 

[fuji]

But the UN appointed rapporteur acted according to his UN stated mandate and provided a UN letterheaded report published on the UN voice for Israel Human Rights.

But not endorsed by the UN or by OHCHR and not on behalf of the UN. His are independent submissions TO those groups.

Stop you clown dance and admit that Falk's reports are not from the UN.

 

[groggy]

Stop you clown dance and admit that Falk's reports are not from the UN.

Why don't you write him an angry green letter to his old UN office, they'll forward it to him.
Then they'll probably write you a letter back with UN letterhead that you can claim wasn't from the UN, its just an independent opinion.



The UN says Israel is apartheid.
Fuji backs shooting children to defend the ICJ ruled illegal apartheid wall.