Anti-Semitism

[papasmerf]

then do you agree with Israel destroying Palestinian houses to put up their own settlements?

As I said I agree with peaceful coexistence not acts of aggression from any side.

If you find this not to be an answer to your question you must examine your question, before you question my answer.

I condemn all acts of aggression but tend to support defensive actions.

Believe it or not I am a man of peace until peace no longer works

 

[Cobster]

You didn't ask earlier if I was for the destruction of Israel. The existence of Israel isn't wrong, many of the current policies are. Many Jews believe the same thing.

Well said, I have a few Jewish friends who think the same.

 

[Aardvark154]

Wow, a civil discussion which has covered all the points. Perhaps there is hope.

 

[Wizard Merlin]

Not only do most Jews accept a Palestinian state, so does the state of Israel. The sticking point is on what parcel of land. The Palestinians want pre 1967 borders. Meaning to include the entire West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

Israel will not relinquish Jerusalem and also wants to alter the borders of the West Bank to account for large jewish settlements. Problem is that Israel is the size of Lake Ontario, so every square inch is highly contested. This powder keg of a situation seems to remain in a relentless quagmire.

Very sad for both sides.

 

[Aardvark154]

As a Jew, I would hate for Jerusalem to be lost, and I can see how sides would get emotional about it

The only thing I can see being done is that Jerusalem must be the capital of both states. How that is to be done: international city or some complicated power sharing formula for municipal governance, I don't have a clear vision. But it is the only thing that will work.

 

[spankingman]

Judaism is both a Religion AND a Culture from what I have gathered over the years. ie: ever heard of a Catholic Restaurant !!!!!!! but Jewish Deli's are popular. Is there Anglican food but there is Jewish food etc. Just to clarify I am not Jewish.

 

[The Options Menu]

Yeah, this thread hasn't touched on cultural issues, but I certainly do agree - Judaism is a religion, community, culture and political issue all rolled into one - all of which can be targets of anti-semitism, which is the original topic of the thread.

Lumping 'the political' with 'religion, community, culture' is one of the most effective ways Zionists have been smear anybody who doesn't support the current policies of Israel as an 'anti-semite'.

As has been pointed out, the broad strokes of a solution aren't mysterious-- Two states with borders based on the 1967 line, with 'fair' land trades as required. No asymmetrical attacks from the Palestinians. An Israel that respects human rights and international law. One of the biggest problems there is that the US has gone from being a strong regional ally of Israel, to slowly becoming captive to a very vigorous Israeli lobby. In that mix are militant Zionists and end times Christians... Fun stuff. I'm a happy atheist, but let's not close our eyes and pretend it's only "Muslim Extremists' that are a problem... All of the monolithic religions have their share of nutjobs, and politics and media in the US is a pretty stilted and dysfunctional environment.

So chalk me up as a "I'm with Carter" and have no real bone to pick with actual Jews. (Well no more so than with any group who will tolerate fundie nutbars in their midst.)

 

[zardoz]

What Israel is doing to Palestinians are NOT quite like what Nazi Germany was doing to Jews, but it is the closest thing I can imagine comparing - a powerful military force against defenceless ethnic group trying to displace them. So I am not for destruction of Isreal or Jewish people or any ethnic group for that matter, so was Allied forces was not going to destroy Germany or German people. However, it took the loss of many lives on both sides to end the war. What Israel is doing right now is causing more people to hate Jews - even if it is the incorrect that these people hate Jews, they should be hating Israeli policy makers and government. Unless Jewish people themselves do something about Israeli government policy, make positive changes, hate will just increase, and give more reasons for terrorists and suicide bombers to take more Jewish lives - I completely condemn terrorist and their actions however.

 

[shapeup1]

That's correct, being against an Israeli policy isn't the same as wishing its destruction or hating Jewish people.

"As New York Times commentator Thomas Friedman put it: "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanctions, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

There are people on the political forum and here, that always critisize Israel but never have a word for the butcheries that go on in other middle east countries... thats antisemite.

 

[The Options Menu]

"As New York Times commentator Thomas Friedman put it: "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanctions, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

There are people on the political forum and here, that always critisize Israel but never have a word for the butcheries that go on in other middle east countries... thats antisemite.

The issue with that is that Israel has never faced anything resembling an appropriate response for any number of it's actions (let alone policies). Being American or Isreali means never having to say 'sorry', or god forbid not doing the action you should say 'sorry' for.

Here's a scenario- Iran storms a Greek convoy that it suspects of bringing CIA weapons to 'Aggressive Iranian Democracy Advocates' in international waters. The first question would be: "When are we invoking the collective security clause of NATO to bomb, bomb, bomb Iran?". Now, Turkey is a NATO signatory. It's entitled to 'collective security'. How far would Turkey get by trying to invoke 'collective security' when it comes to a clear act of nautical piracy in international waters? Not far in this case. Funny that, eh?

Symmetry, in evaluating things is important-- But as a fun game, find an online list of known offences the state of Israel has committed. Find and replace all references to Israel (and alter the specific locations), and label it "Iran 2015", and give it to a far right winger. Wait. Wait. Wait. Instigate a serious conversation. Then laugh at them as they suggest the most extreme measures.

 

[hardy2003]

How about a secular/Jewish state (i.e. not a orthodox Jewish one) with the pre-1967 border with the exception of East Jerusalem. Jerusalem is much more important to Jews than Muslims. However, the holy sites are policed by a third disinterested parties. Muslims may live in Israel and Jews in the West Bank can stay if they obey Palestinian laws. Any violence is dealt with as a criminal matter and there is no state sponsored violence.

 

[basketcase]

True, just don't make the link that being against Israel's policies is antisemitic.

The claims of anti-semitism would be valid if one has consistently and without exception found only fault in Israel's policies and actions without admitting to any positives while at the same time ignoring immoral actions by other countries involved in the conflict.

For a number of posters on this board have a history where 99% of their posts are criticizing Israel, the label anti-semite fits.

You could also include a noticeable number of posters on the board who advocate various Jewish conspiracy theories.

As for the view of world bodies on the difference between criticism and anti-semitism,

From the The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)

"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred towards Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed towards Jews and non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, towards Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." The paper included some examples:

* Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;
* Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;
* Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;
* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis;
* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.[40][41]

The EUMC added that criticism of Israel cannot be regarded as antisemitism so long as it is "similar to that leveled against any other country."[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

 

[basketcase]

... Is there Anglican food...

Having had many a dinner at my Anglican Grandmother's house (RIP), no (OK, Yorkshire and Roast beef is great if someone other than my Gram cooked it).


I get your point but Anglican (ie. Church of England) is a bad example.

 

[basketcase]

... (Well no more so than with any group who will tolerate fundie nutbars in their midst.)

I guess that would rule out about every country in the world.

 

[basketcase]

What Israel is doing to Palestinians are NOT quite like what Nazi Germany was doing to Jews, but it is the closest thing I can imagine comparing - a powerful military force against defenceless ethnic group trying to displace them. ..

It might be enlightening if you took the time to read up on the conflict. You would see how far your comparison is from the truth.

Both sides have their share of nuts who (ethnicity aside) may have fit in with the Nazis but the conflict that has been going on for more than 60 years doesn't fit your view of one side trying to bully the other out of existence (it may have started that way but Israel managed to survive).

 

[guelph]

I have a problem with the denial that there were many terrrorist activites undertaken by Isrealis in the interst of creating the state of Isreal

and what appears to me as a creation of an attack plan to call critisiam or disagreement with any action of the state of Isreal as anti semitic.

 

[james t kirk]

If criticizing the policies of the State of Israel makes one an anti-Semite then I guess I'm an anti-Semite.

More times than not I feel that Israel is full of shit.

Paradoxically, I don't deny Israel the right to exist, or defend itself. I just wish they would stop persecuting and killing the Palestinians.

 

[Ironhead]

I do not dislike anyone for their religion or views, however I find Jews to be a people who would prefer to deal within their own community more so then other people. This is just an observation I have made over the years. Maybe I am way off.


That said I have a couple of questions.
I have learned/heard, via little clips of news here and there, some things which I wonder about.

Do some Jews dislike/not agree with the existence of Israel ?

Can Israel survive on it's own in the Mid-East ?

 

[Ironhead]

I think you are way-off when you say that Jews like to deal in their own community MORE than other people. I think most minorities deal within their own community. I will go further and say that the "like" comes from the fact that familiarity breeds familiarity - period. I do not go out searching for Jewish clients or Jewish contacts. I can say that earlier on I used to, and I used to feel more comfortable dealing within "The Tribe", but that's radically changed. In fact, some of the worst experiences I have had in business are when I've dealt with someone recommended through the community to me. They expect the relationship to be more personal than it is business, and that's not the way things work. Again, I suspect you would find this in any community though.

I meant to say, I guess I was not clear, that I find Jews are more apt to hire other Jews, shop at stores within the Jewish community, etc ... where they only have to deals with other Jews. I know/understand that others do this well, but and maybe it is only me, I find the Jewish people to follow this practise more so then others. Again I understand and except I may be wrong. Also this is a very unscientific 'opinion'(I did no actual research) as it is just an observation mostly from memory.

 

[james t kirk]

I think you are way-off when you say that Jews like to deal in their own community MORE than other people. I think most minorities deal within their own community. I will go further and say that the "like" comes from the fact that familiarity breeds familiarity - period. I do not go out searching for Jewish clients or Jewish contacts. I can say that earlier on I used to, and I used to feel more comfortable dealing within "The Tribe", but that's radically changed. In fact, some of the worst experiences I have had in business are when I've dealt with someone recommended through the community to me. They expect the relationship to be more personal than it is business, and that's not the way things work. Again, I suspect you would find this in any community though.

As for some Jews not agreeing with the existence of Israel, I suspect those would be few and far between, if at all. I strongly agree with the concept of a Jewish state. You have to realize that we are still in the shadow of the Holocaust, and the safety of having a place that we can both call our own, and a place that can stick-up for Jews is quite important.

Can Israel survive on its own in the Middle East - I suspect not. Imagine being surrounded ON ALL SIDES by countries that are larger than you and want to "drive you into the sea".

When Israel was created in the 1940's the Orthodox Jews opposed its creation because they believed that only the Messiah could lead the Jews back to the Holy Land, not the United Nations.

Never the less, once it was created, they just figured, "well, it's here so who am I to argue with the facts."