AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh There is justice after all.

[RTRD]

They were...

Those are a little out of the range of issues that were contemplated at the start of this thread and I hope i could show restraint in those situations. Everybody has to take their own lumps, its part of life, but I am addressing larger issues.

No, I don't fight all his battles , a comment like that twists the sentiment of my post. Not sure what the downward side of the threat level would be but in the situation as original described there is no doubt. Its just the way I am, not about to change now.

...but the issues we were contemplating at the start of this thread were between an adult and a child, so I wasn't sure where you were going with this regarding your ADULT son.

So - since we clearly aren't talking about child molestation...and we aren't talking about the things I listed...then what are we talking about? Because what you said was "harm him in any way shape or form and I will kill that person"...

 

[LancsLad]

...but the issues we were contemplating at the start of this thread were between an adult and a child, so I wasn't sure where you were going with this regarding your ADULT son.

So - since we clearly aren't talking about child molestation...and we aren't talking about the things I listed...then what are we talking about? Because what you said was "harm him in any way shape or form and I will kill that person"...

The main thrust of what I was adressing was related to the time befoe he reached the adulthood age of majority landmark. It is just that the protective feelings you have over the period of their childhood do not simply stop once they become an adult. At a gut visceral level they probably never do go away and thats what I was expressing.

 

[RTRD]

Agreed...

The main thrust of what I was adressing was related to the time befoe he reached the adulthood age of majority landmark. It is just that the protective feelings you have over the period of their childhood do not simply stop once they become an adult. At a gut visceral level they probably never do go away and thats what I was expressing.

...though I am not there yet I do not doubt for a second what you are saying here.

I was just pointing out that what you had said was probably not EXACTLY what you intended - taken EXACTLY as it was written.

Again we agree - try to not make that shit a habit, ok?

 

[LancsLad]

...though I am not there yet I do not doubt for a second what you are saying here.

I was just pointing out that what you had said was probably not EXACTLY what you intended - taken EXACTLY as it was written.

Again we agree - try to not make that shit a habit, ok?

I know its is really starting to scare me.

 

[dj1470]

My son while now an adult and able to fend for himself is still the most important thing in the world to me. There is no grey area, harm him in any way shape or form and I will kill that person, and not quickly either. To some people that may seem barbaric, fine if thats your view then you must live with the consequences as I am prepared to live with the consequences of what I would do.

Amen.

 

[fuji]

The problem with vigilante justice is there are two sides to every story. Often the victim of a crime has a very biased view of events. There are just too many cases where people think they are absolutely right and justified and that their rights have been trod on when in fact they are the ones trodding on other people's rights.

I have been involved in resolving a lot of disputes. First you hear one person's side of the story and you think, wow, I can't believe there are such assholes out there who would do that kind of thing to this person. Then you talk to the other side and you hear this whole different story.

For example, in one case there was a woman being thrown out of her home without adequate notice. She told me her landlord was racist, had with-held her ID, threatened her, and forced her out with no notice at all. She was crying when I encountered her. I felt really bad and I couldn't believe that a landlord could be so callous.

If you were into vigilante justice you might have got really mad and gone over and smashed some of the landlords windows or something as a warning not to be so cruel.

Well, in this case I called the landlord and had a very interesting discussion. This "victim" had assaulted several other people in the house, including the landlord herself, who also lived in the esame residence. The landlord had had to call the police on several occasions. The victim also had a track record--she'd also separately been expelled from the school she was attending for similar behavior. I called the school and confirmed that was true, that the landlord wasn't just making it up. In the end right or wrong I concluded that if I were the landlord I'd want this woman out of my house ASAP as well--but you head to hear both sides to know that. A vigilante might have smashed the real victim's window. Once you hear all the sides of a story it's just never so clear as it seems to be.

I don't doubt that this pedophile is a sick fuck, but without all the facts at hand you don't really know what sort of punishment he really deserved. Maybe in his case it really is black and white and he deserved what he got. Or maybe the incident came to an end because the pedophile himself realized his problem and sought help. Does he deserve capital punishment in that case? The victim might think so, but an impartial judge might not agree. I really don't know the facts of this case--I didn't follow any links--but even if it's the correct result in THIS case, it COULD have been different. The victim isn't in a position to judge it.

The problem is, the victims are ALWAYS sure that's the case, but it only sometimes actually is the case.

 

[burnandturn]

So we let people dispense street justice?!

So next time, you step on my lawn, I shoot you dead.

As despicable as the pedophile is, and as satisfying as the video may seem, I don't believe in victims taking the law into their own hands.

interesting how you equate stepping on your lawn with pedophelia. maybe next time compare apples to a watermelon.

 

[Jade4u]

There's also looking at it in another view. When the victim hears that the person that has assaulted them is released it brings fear in them that the person may seek them out and come after them again. So in fact this father may not have been present in this childs life if he had of gone to jail for killing him but has also provided some peace of mind for his child later in life. Knowing that indeed the man who assulted him cannot and will not come back for him again. Indeed he may be grateful for his father.

 

[xdog]

I can't believe it, but I'm in total agreement with MLAM. Vigilante justice benefits nobody. Too many examples of innocent people being killed or executed. We have a legal system, while not perfect, that does its best to punish people after they have received a fair trial. What some people may see as being fair, others will see as being just.
Instead of blaming the system, ask yourselves why Peter Whitmore was not being properly supervised. MLAM also makes a valid point when he suggests that people are hypocritical when they want to kill a guy who has molested a girl but give high fives when the molestor is considered to be a hot female. Why is the former a crime and the latter an initiation? I remember watching a documentary a few years ago where a man was serving time for killing his best friend who he thought was molesting his daughter. Guess what? It wasn't true. He had the wrong guy. While he is now in prison, his daughter is on the outside without a father in her time of need.


x^

 

[xdog]

Another question to ask yourself is 'what if the father in the video also shot an innocent bystander while trying to kill the pedophile'. Should he now be held responsible for that killing or should he get off for temporarity insanity? Also keep in mind that most molestors have also been molested during their childhood. Should these people be forgiven for their crimes due to insanity caused by them being molested?

x^

 

[RTRD]

That...

There's also looking at it in another view. When the victim hears that the person that has assaulted them is released it bring fear in them that the person may seek them out and come after them again. So in fact this father may not have been present in this childs life if he had of gone to jail for killing him but has also provided some peace of mind for his child later in life. Knowing that indeed the man who assulted him cannot and will not come back for him again. Indeed he may be grateful for his father.

...is a stretch.

I wouldn't say it is completely out of left field, but what you are talking about is something that can be dealt with.

Having your Dad locked up, losing your home as a result of the lost income, having your family broken apart because your mother isn't going to wait until Daddy comes back home 10 years from now when she has a life to lead...that shit is real...not a "could happen".

Going to jail for vengence is no better than going to jail for selling drugs if you leave your family in the lurch. All what you are saying is just self justification. Your kids are (potentially) hungry and homeless, and your wife is lonely - except for the harassment the media is giving her. The fact that there was a "chance" the pedophile might come back around doesn't justify that.

However, SHOULD he come back around - well, that would be somewhat closer to "self defense"...not sure what the line is there.

 

[hak]

You obviously have no children or you would have kept your insane comment to yourself. If you do have children I feel sorry for them. Yes, no regrets. You protect your children no matter what. Whether it be before the fact or after. Just thinking about it makes me very angry. I would have no problem handing out vigilante justice in that situation. No problem. Happy to do it. I would also be protecting any future victims. "Peter Whitmore" mean anything to you? As for me going to jail for a few years I would have no problem with that either. Your idiotic comment about a little time apart as opposed to harm by a pedophile is just stupid. Are you really putting them on the same level of injury whether physical or emotional? Please. Screw your head on properly.

I'll try to respond rationally to what was an ignorant response. I would be insulted if your insults had any merit.

First off, let's set the ground rules and facts:
1. I have no children. (this should be irrelevant to the discussion)
2. I am working off the assumption that the person has been apprehended. That should have been "COMMON SENSE" given the story in this thread.
3. Theoretically, my "no regrets" are based on me making decisions that are best for my children. (Common sense would dictate that you agree with this)
4. Don't ASSUME that I would not make the same emotionally charged decisions as you or this father. I very well might. I never once said that I would not react with similar emotions. I just brought up the notion of "regrets"

You seem to be harping on the point of protecting your children Fine - if a person has not been apprehended and you feel they are a threat to your child ,then I think the best decision for the child is to inflict harm / justice. While it is an emotional decision, it is not selfish, it is done in the best interests of the child. This counter example has no merit in this discussion because it is truly "protecting" your child.

Situation where the individual has been apprehended First off, as I said before, I might react very emotionally and harm this individual. As like most emotional decisions, there are elements of justification to them (in this case they are clear, and I am not putting myself on some highground and saying I would not act the same) .... but most emotional decisions have regrettable consequences.

Really, if the person has been apprehended, are you protecting your child anymore. No. Is the decision to attack in the best interest of the child or you? Quite simply, the decision to kill the individual, who will no longer cause any damage to your child, is a selfish one, one that satisifes me / you / this dad the most. We have already agreed, that the basis for any decision should be what is best for our children.

What is best for our child's interest, is that we let the law take care of this individual (if he has been caught). A vigilante justice type response does not mean hate are children... it is an emotional action that shows our love for them... that being said it has many regrets to it.


Once again, I reiterate that I may act the same as this dad. But it would be a decision that would have many regrets to it (i.e kids have even more negative attention, no dad for a long period of time)


I just hope that when I become a father first:
a) I am not ever faced with such a callous act
b) that I have the strength to avoid emotional decisions that while somewhat justified are selfish, and not to the best interests of my child.

 

[Jade4u]

...is a stretch.

I wouldn't say it is completely out of left field, but what you are talking about is something that can be dealt with.

Having your Dad, locked up, losing your home as a result of the lost income, having your family broken apart because your mother isn't going to wait until Daddy come back home 10 years from now when she has a life to lead...that shit is real...not a "could happen".

Going to jail for vengence is no better than going to jail for selling drugs if you leave your family in the lurch. All what you are saying is just self justification. Your kids are (potentially) hungry and homeless, and your wife is lonely - except for the harassment the media is giving her. The fact that there was a "chance" the pedophile might come back around doesn't justify that.

However, SHOULD he come back around - well, that would be somewhat closer to "self defense"...not sure what the line is there.

There is also the possibility the mother would still go visit the man in prison and understand totally his reasonings behind his actions as the child is hers as well. If she has a good job as well there would be no loss of needs for the child either. Nobody totally understands the minds of these criminals who assult children all we do know is that they do most likely come out and repeat thier actions.

 

[RTRD]

Because...

If she has a good job as well there would be no loss of needs for the child either.

...she makes so much money that the husband was working just to support his hobby habit - not contributing to supporting the family?

You are dealing in could be's and what if's. I am talking about what REALLY happens to families when the husbands / fathers go off to jail.

It might be really great that the husband was a "hero" to his child and killed the bad man. That euphoria will last for awhile.

It will not pay bills.

It will not provide a male presence in the home during what will surely be a difficult time.

It will not go to football games, dance recitals, or provide comfort at night for a lonely marriage bed.

You think all these things will be somehow overcome because the Dad "did the right thing"?

Really?

So how do you explain what happens to many military families when the husbands go off to war to "do the right thing"? Is that different...killing somone to protect your child aganst a "potential" threat versus fighting for your country? Is that a less worthy cause so those soldiers should have anticipated the things that happened to their families?

What about the families that fall apart when the husband / father is away just trying to keep food on the table? Is that a less than noble cause - should that man expect his wife to cheat on him and his kids to become distant because all he is trying to do is make a living and provide for his family...not nearly as heroic as shooting an unarmed man out of vengence...no parades for the traveling salesman - no sir.

And we haven't even spoken to how changed this father will be when he gets out of prison. Think he will be the same husband and father that went in?

My point is this - you break up your families, shit happens. So - a mature, level headed, responsible male adult wouldn't do so because he THOUGHT the peophile MIGHT come back around and do harm.

Again - my position is that such behavior is totally self indulgent. It isn't about being a good father or protecting your children. Is about being a small man who only way of dealing with his regret for being meraly human and not protecting those he loves against every possible threat (an understandable sentiment) is to lash out at the source of his frustration with the ultimate act of violence.

Nope - not buying it - not gonna justify it. A MAN would get the help he needed for himself and his family, and be there to see them all through.

 

[Jade4u]

There are many stay at home Moms with high education that stopped working and the husbands went to work so that the Mother could stay home and be the care givers for the children. Now we all know that in many homes this is the case. The decision that was made for the betterment of the children as many men and women feel that the child is best raised by the mother rather than another care giver. Now, if the man was no longer present in the home the woman then would have to return to work.

It is the children that do suffer the life time for the acts of the pedophiles it ruins thier marriages as they cannot get as close to thier husbands in the same way that other women/men would it is thier homes that are ruined in the future. So it is them who serve the lifetime and not the pedophile.

 

[RTRD]

But dear...

There are many stay at home Moms with high education that stopped working and the husbands went to work so that the Mother could stay home and be the care givers for the children. Now we all know that in many homes this is the case. The decision that was made for the betterment of the children as many men and women feel that the child is best raised by the mother rather than another care giver. Now, if the man was no longer present in the home the woman then would have to return to work.

It is the children that do suffer the life time for the acts of the pedophiles it ruins thier marriages as they cannot get as close to thier husbands in the same way that other women/men would it is thier homes that are ruined in the future. So it is them who serve the lifetime and not the pedophile.

...the "Act" is already done. Killing the pedophile won't change that.

And as was so well pointed out in another thread by one of your sisteren - having a high education doesn't mean shit if you have been out of the work force for an extended period. 70K jobs aren't given to people with little to no recent experience no matter what type of education you have...unless you are a rocket scientist, and rockest scienctist you'll aren't the stay at home mom type.

Everything else you said was true - but none of that is made better by killing the guy and the father going off to prison. What is done is done.

 

[Jade4u]

It brings the person that was assulted great peace of mind, it changes a lot in the way that they live thier lives after that person is gone. Great mental relaxation.

If the judicial system would get rid of these culprits long before they continued thier crime spree, maybe there would be less people wanting to do away with them including the victim themselves. Then there would also be less worries about how families would have to support themselves and less people in prison.

What is done is never done the victim then has memories to live with the rest of thier lives leaving them wondering if it is best to tell the new spouse that that they meet in the future why they do not like sex in one way and is ok in another or after divorcing that one after confessing the truth to keep it quiet from the next one and then in turn just suffering and bearing through it.

 

[RTRD]

Great peace of mind....

It brings the person that was assulted great peace of mind, it changes a lot in the way that they live thier lives after that person is gone. Great mental relaxation.

If the judicial system would get rid of these culprits long before they continued thier crime spree, maybe there would be less people wanting to do away with them including the victim themselves. Then there would also be less worries about how families would have to support themselves and less people in prison.

What is done is never done the victim then has memories to live with the rest of thier lives leaving them wondering if it is best to tell the new spouse that that they meet in the future why they do not like sex in one way and is ok in another or after divorcing that one after confessing the truth to keep it quiet from the next one and then in turn just suffering and bearing through it.

..to be replace by great struggles to make it day to day?

I think peace of mind is relative, and wears the hell off when you are eating beans for the 4th night in a row.

Insofar as those memories - that is true - but are they going to go away if the pedophile is dead?

I don't agree with your reasoning, and we will have to disagree.

 

[dj1470]

1. I have no children. (this should be irrelevant to the discussion)

It's not irrelavant. Your argument no matter how long winded has no merit after this point. You don't have the experience to justify your standing. Enough said.

 

[fuji]

Not having kids probably makes him LESS biased than you. People become irrational when they THINK they are protecting their children, and that coupled with vigilante justice is a recipe for violent feuding and a lot of innocents getting hurt.

Not everyone who thinks someone else is a threat to their child is right about that, and many take aggressive action against their neighbours and other believing they are protecting their children when all they are really doing is being jerks. Give them what they think is a right to start pulling triggers and you've turned them from jerks into murderers.

I would say that 99% of people who are sure they are victims and deserve some "justice" are really the problem, and that a primary function of our police and justice system is to identify the 1% who really are.