Abortion...

[Svend]

Yes, the fetus is a future child but so is my sperm.
Is it a sin to wipe my sperm with a tissue and flush it down the drain?
Is it a sin to use a condom?

I'm not being silly, these ideas were the norm not too long ago and still are for some religious groups.

 

[booboobear]

It is worth pointing out, I am not asking that anyone agree with my notion of when a fetus becomes a person. I am only asking people to agree that everyone will have a different idea. I don't think there is any way to say who is "right" and who is "wrong" because it comes down to what you believe, it is a very personal, religious, philosophical thing.

Sometimes we have a general consensus on these kinds of questions. We all pretty much agree that it is wrong to kill a newborn child.
In the case of aborting a fertilized egg, there is no general consensus. There's many people on either side of the issue. Absent a general consensus it is my opinion that a tolerant society ought to leave the matter up to each person and their own conscience.



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I would probably agree after 3 weeks termination is ok but after that ??
I guess where we fundamentally disagree is that since you don't have proof of when a fetus is a human life it's ok for each individual to make up his/her mind , well I don't believe we have that right to decide.
I wonder how many people who decide its ok to abort look at the stages of development and brain activity and think exactly what they are doing.
Like I said whether you or I believe at fetus is a human or not is really not important it is what it is and it doesn't matter what we believe .

 

[fuji]

I guess where we fundamentally disagree is that since you don't have proof of when a fetus is a human life it's ok for each individual to make up his/her mind ,

No-one has "proof", because we don't even agree on what we would be trying to prove. That a fetus is self-aware? That it has a soul? If we can't even agree on what a "person" is, how can we prove whether something is one or not?

well I don't believe we have that right to decide.

Why not? Who does have the right? Outlawing abortion IS deciding. I would think the potential parents of a child are better qualified than anyone else to decide whether or not their fetus is a person yet or not. You'd have a hard time convincing me that some lawyer or politician or bureaucrat is better qualified to decide than the parents are, and in particular, than the mother is.

 

[Don]

Yes, the fetus is a future child but so is my sperm.

No it is not. A sperm is not a future child. It is one of the necessary components to make a future child but it, by itself, can not ever become a child.

Just like how an unfertilized egg is not a future child either.

 

[fuji]

No it is not. A sperm is not a future child. It is one of the necessary components to make a future child but it, by itself, can not ever become a child.

Just like how an unfertilized egg is not a future child either.

First off, as you know, I think this is moot. Whether or not "ever becomes a child" is important or not depends on beliefs that you have that I don't.

Second, though, a fertilized egg is one of the components to make a future child but it, by itself, can not ever become a child. All sorts of additional material is required from the mother in order for it to grow into anything--and note, especially in the early stages, it's not just nourishment that the egg requires, it's much more than that. The fetus has little chance for survival until the 20th week, and then it's a real long shot, an under 5% chance and that possible only with significant artificial life support. Each week thereafter, though, the odds of survival rise dramatically--up to 60% just four weeks later.

Now, that is not actually a significant factor for me, but it happily coincides with what is significant to me (my own personal beliefs, yours no doubt differ). For me what matters is the potential for self-awareness. In the first trimester the brain is just too animalistic for there to be any chance of it. However, around the 20th week the fetus will begin dreaming. Now that doesn't mean that it is self aware, but it's enough to give me pause.

So my own personal take is a first trimester abortion is a complete non-event, but sometime in the 2nd trimester, aroudn the half way point in the pregnancy, it becomes a little dodgy, and by the third trimester I'd have a problem with it for sure, personally.

If you asked me to pick an arbitrary point, I'd pick the 20th week as the point at which there's enough stuff going on that the fetus probably deserves the benefit of the doubt. That's my personal opinion. The important thing to remember is that other people have different criteria. There is no reason why the things I consider important would be the same things that you consider important, or any better or any worse, it's just a difference of religion or philosophy what you think matters.

 

[booboobear]

No-one has "proof", because we don't even agree on what we would be trying to prove. That a fetus is self-aware? That it has a soul? If we can't even agree on what a "person" is, how can we prove whether something is one or not?



Why not? Who does have the right? Outlawing abortion IS deciding. I would think the potential parents of a child are better qualified than anyone else to decide whether or not their fetus is a person yet or not. You'd have a hard time convincing me that some lawyer or politician or bureaucrat is better qualified to decide than the parents are, and in particular, than the mother is.

Well I think a trained scientist or Doctor is better qualified than you or I .
Being a parent does not require intelligence.
The point I make and you keep ignoring is that a fetus is human it is not a pig and because you decide it's not doesn't make it so. Do you think there is some magical time it becomes human ?

 

[fuji]

Well I think a trained scientist or Doctor is better qualified than you or I .
Being a parent does not require intelligence.
The point I make and you keep ignoring is that a fetus is human it is not a pig and because you decide it's not doesn't make it so. Do you think there is some magical time it becomes human ?

Better qualified at what? Making religious and philosophical judgements? I am not sure a doctor has any training that prepares them for that. A doctor could tell you things like "the fetus has x% brain functioning now" but whether that data is relevant or not depends on answers to philosophical questions that the doctor is in no place to answer, or even to ask. The best qualified person to make this judgement, I think, is the person who is closest to the fetus in question--that would be the mother, with the father coming next, and other family, relatives, community thereafter.

Who turns to a doctor for theological advice?

By the way, a fetus is a human fetus, that is a tautology, but is it a human person? Is an egg a chicken? Is a seed a tree? In some sense yes, in some sense no. Which sense is relevant to the question of whether or not it has rights? That leads right back to the same issue--one of philosophy and religion that each individual answers a little differently. To see the same thing on a less controversial subject matter--there are a lot of vegetarians who will eat eggs, but who will not eat chicken meat; some other vegetarians consider eating eggs to be just as bad. People have very different takes on this question.

My answer is that being a person requires the potential for hopes and dreams, self awareness, and so on. That is just my personal answer, though. Those particular things might not be what matters to you--you might believe that a fetus has a soul that it is imbued with at conception, or you might believe that what matters are its odds of surviving independent of the mother. I have no reason to tell you that you are right or wrong--it is a difference of faith, philosophy, and theology.

 

[weewhispers2]

IMO
I did not really read this whole thread but I get the idea. but for some here is a scenario
1: Man is married, visits an SP, condom breaks. You are the only client she has seen that a condom broke and she knows for sure it is you. Next time you see her she says I am pregnant. Now what?

I know of this happening a few times and guess what these sp's keep them.. and the single man pays forever.

2: What about drug addicts having babies cause there against abortion? They have a drug addicted baby to live a terrible life and maybe put it up for adoption for someone else to watch the child suffer?

There are all different reasons for a child not to be born.
Never just cause your not ready or you can not afford. But every healthy child should have a chance.
3: In the case of rape no I don’t think abortion should be an option any healthy child is wanted by others. Yes maybe the joy of giving it up to a family that can’t have children would be the gift that god intends. The mental suffering from a rape will always be with a woman an abortion will never cure that pain.

 

[booboobear]

Better qualified at what?

By the way, a fetus is a human fetus, that is a tautology, but is it a human person? Is an egg a chicken?

A Doctor is better qualified to deide if a fetus is human and if you are taking a life. Buy the way we weat chickens and eggs not humans so I don't think the comparison is right.

 

[fuji]

A Doctor is better qualified to deide if a fetus is human and if you are taking a life. Buy the way we weat chickens and eggs not humans so I don't think the comparison is right.

I don't get this. You keep saying that, but I can't for the life of me imagine how a doctor would be the right person to know.

All a doctor can do is tell you things like stage of development, probability of survival, etc., and so a doctor certainly could give you input that would help you decide.

For example, if you thought "is self aware" is the important criteria, a doctor would certainly be a good person to ask about whether the fetus has the brain capacity for self awareness or not.

But, before you ask that question, you have to ask whether "is self aware" is even the right criteria--and I just don't believe that a doctor is qualified to answer that. Maybe you should be asking "has emotions" or "can survive on own", and a doctor could help answer those questions too--but how do you know which question to ask?

What if your criteria is "has a soul", how does a doctor know whether or not a fetus has a soul?

 

[booboobear]

I don't get this. You keep saying that, but I can't for the life of me imagine how a doctor would be the right person to know.

All a doctor can do is tell you things like stage of development, probability of survival, etc., and so a doctor certainly could give you input that would help you decide.

QUOTE]


I give up according to you and others who think it's the women's right to decide she can be an ignorant drug addicted person with a borderline I.Q. and she can make a decision but an educated Doctor , scientist lawyer can't . oBVIOUSLY THE WOMEN WHO DOESN'T WANT THE KID ANYWAY WILL CHOOSE TO ABORT. and doesn't really stop to think whether she is aborting a child as opposed to a piece of flesh.

 

[weewhispers2]

EXACTLY!
Everyone has a choice to do what they want legal or not. Everyone suffers the after guilt.
Abortion is easy. Doctors do it all over the world and because its available. Easy way out.
Illegal in one place and not in another all there doing is saying not in there back yard. Everyone elses is ok.

I don't get this. You keep saying that, but I can't for the life of me imagine how a doctor would be the right person to know.

All a doctor can do is tell you things like stage of development, probability of survival, etc., and so a doctor certainly could give you input that would help you decide.

QUOTE]


I give up according to you and others who think it's the women's right to decide she can be an ignorant drug addicted person with a borderline I.Q. and she can make a decision but an educated Doctor , scientist lawyer can't . oBVIOUSLY THE WOMEN WHO DOESN'T WANT THE KID ANYWAY WILL CHOOSE TO ABORT. and doesn't really stop to think whether she is aborting a child as opposed to a piece of flesh.

 

[feminista]

Abortion is easy. Doctors do it all over the world and because its available. Easy way out

Abortion is NOT available in many places all over the world. Abortion Is easy? That is your opinion. Some must travel many miles and endure many hardships to access it. Some have no access and will die trying to abort. Some people who actually believe abortion is wrong and then end up having one due to circumstances in their lives often have emotional issues for a long time. Studies have shown that most women simply feel relief.

Abortions in other countries often cost a lot of money.

In the case of rape no I don’t think abortion should be an option any healthy child is wanted by others. Yes maybe the joy of giving it up to a family that can’t have children would be the gift that god intends. The mental suffering from a rape will always be with a woman an abortion will never cure that pain.

You advocate that rape victims should give birth cuzthey have to deal with the trauma of rape anyway. nice. do you remember that there is 9 months of pregnancy and then the agony of birthing? People all asking about the dad and the pregnancy. the pregnancy& birth will be worse then the rape IMO.

Pregnancy is often very hard. I know people who ended pregnancies they never intended to end because they were debilitated by the process. One of the phone girls at our agency is in her first trimester and she has just been ordered to stay in bed. She has 3 kids already. If she stops working she will lose her home. If she keeps working she will likely lose the pregnancy.

and honey escorts do get pregnant by clients. condoms break and contraception fails. How would an escorts husband and family deal with the new addition? If you R against abortion -don't have one.
How do you feel about escorts using PlanB aka-the morning after pill after they have an accident?
Should they not be allowed acces to that?
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the other misconception widely droned on about the z/e/f is about whether or not it is human. of course it's human no one says it isn't. did u think we thought it was canine? a human zygote is made from humans so it's human.

 

[fuji]

I don't get this. You keep saying that, but I can't for the life of me imagine how a doctor would be the right person to know.

All a doctor can do is tell you things like stage of development, probability of survival, etc., and so a doctor certainly could give you input that would help you decide.

I give up according to you and others who think it's the women's right to decide she can be an ignorant drug addicted person with a borderline I.Q. and she can make a decision but an educated Doctor , scientist lawyer can't . oBVIOUSLY THE WOMEN WHO DOESN'T WANT THE KID ANYWAY WILL CHOOSE TO ABORT. and doesn't really stop to think whether she is aborting a child as opposed to a piece of flesh.

Unlike you I guess I do trust regular ordinary folks to make important decisions about their own lives and the lives of their children or in this case potential children. If someone is so borderline that they can't make an effective decision about their own life and the life of their potential child then their guardian ought to make the decision for them. I would agree with you that in the case of a parent who is so incapable that the state would have seized the child anyway, that perhaps in that case the decision should be made by another family member who is more thoughtful.

Doctors/lawyers/scientists, none of these people receive any theological, philosophical, or ethical training that would entitle them to make deeply personal decisions on behalf of other people. They are just geeks with some technical know-how.

You could convince me perhaps that someone's minister was in a good position to make this judgement; but we do not live in a theocracy, and many people have deeply personal philosophical or religious beliefs that they hold independent of any particular institutional religion.

 

[booboobear]

Unlike you I guess I do trust regular ordinary folks to make important decisions about their own lives and the lives of their children or in this case potential children. If someone is so borderline that they can't make an effective decision about their own life and the life of their potential child then their guardian ought to make the decision for them.
Doctors/lawyers/scientists, none of these people receive any theological, philosophical, or ethical training that would entitle them to make deeply personal decisions on behalf of other people. They are just geeks with some technical know-how.

You could convince me perhaps that someone's minister was in a good position to make this judgement; but we do not live in a theocracy, and many people have deeply personal philosophical or religious beliefs that they hold independent of any particular institutional religion.

I don't want people wrong I used to totally believe in abortion saying basically why have a kid if you don't want it which is what women say who want to be the only ones hsving the choice . As I got older I began to see that maybe the choice shouldn't just be does the woman want the kid or not.
I don't advocate a woman keeping a child if she is going to beat or abuse it in some form but the sad part is any woman can have a child .

I don't think a minister is a good choice because I don't think it's a religious issue.

 

[papasmerf]

Not every child that is aborted is conceived by rape.

I have two questions for all those who supprt wholesale abortion. Do you wish your parents aborted you, your sisters or brothers? Are you sorry you did not abort your children?

 

[basketcase]

I have two questions for all those who supprt wholesale abortion. Do you wish your parents aborted you, your sisters or brothers? Are you sorry you did not abort your children?

Are you tired of repeating this dogma?

And what is wholesale abortion? Direct from the manufacturer? Did you mean bulk abortions; Buy 1, get 2 free?

I understand that it is often an emotional topic but repition of your motto does not convince others.

Why must conservatives feel that the government should not interfere in peoples lives, except when it enforces their own moral viewpoint?

 

[fuji]

Not every child that is aborted is conceived by rape.

I have two questions for all those who supprt wholesale abortion. Do you wish your parents aborted you, your sisters or brothers? Are you sorry you did not abort your children?

That's a nonsense question. What if your parents never met? Would it have been wrong/immoral/illegal for them to have met other people? There's no point to this line of reasoning.

 

[papasmerf]

Are you tired of repeating this dogma?

And what is wholesale abortion? Direct from the manufacturer? Did you mean bulk abortions; Buy 1, get 2 free?

I understand that it is often an emotional topic but repition of your motto does not convince others.

Why must conservatives feel that the government should not interfere in peoples lives, except when it enforces their own moral viewpoint?

I don't think my taxes should pay for it

How is that

now how about my questions?

 

[papasmerf]

Totally bogus statement. Since when do we
have a choice of how our taxes are spent?

No bogus at all
I stoped giving to the UNITED WAY because of their supprt of planned parenthood.

If the only way to stop tax dollars from flowing to what I view are wrong is changing the law

So be it