Abortion...

[Papi Chulo]

If Roe v Wade is overturned, will they also ban wire coat hangers?

 

[papasmerf]

If Roe v Wade is overturned, will they also ban wire coat hangers?

overturning ROE v WADE (interestingly ROE wants it overturned) would not ban abortions. It would put the laws into states hands.

 

[feminista]

papi:

If Roe v Wade is overturned, will they also ban wire coat hangers?
__________________

I think they'll let us keep the hangers. it'll make the evil preggo's suffer even more. it's a lifer's win/win situation. they legally remove our autonomy, knowing we will abort anyway. then they can smile knowing that FEMALE fornicators (those sluts) must risk death and endure the torture of having a wire hanger rammed into their cervixes

of course all goes well for the males. until escorts start getting knocked up and the johns have to start paying child support. Now that'll be funny.

 

[papasmerf]

I think they'll let us keep the hangers. it'll make the evil preggo's suffer even more. win win.

Maybe

Do you regret your mom not aborting?

 

[feminista]

i regret your mom not aborting. stalker.

 

[papasmerf]

i regret your mom not aborting. stalker.

Look
I do not for a moment believe that abortion will be banned in the US. Nor do I believe that banning it would solve any issues. I do however support education as a first defense. And do not support abortion as birth control.

 

[feminista]

I would like to clear up some of the ridiculous notions about abortion.

Abortion IS a form of birth control. if it controls whether or not there is a birth, it is birth control. Even if you only do it once.

For those who say "I don't believe in abortion". Yeah you do. You know it exists. Say you are against abortion.

4 those (Oil) who say abortion is murder. Murder is a legal term and abortion doesn’t qualify for it.

WhaWha says abortion is a form of contraception.
Abortion isn’t contraception. Contraception PREVENTS pregnancy.

WhaWha said:“Incest, for example. Despite the obvious risks, I have had the privilege of meeting a very brave soldier who now works as a civil engineer in Israel, whose parents are in fact first cousins”

They sound like a sweet couple but what about the 13 year old retarded girl whose daddy fucked her. She is 4’3” with the mind of a 5 year old. I drove her for an abortion. Her tiny body would have a hard time going thru a full term pregnancy, but she would probably live. You would force her to endure all that. Sweet.

I wonder if incest was involved in that girl turning out retarded. Incest IS a problem.

 

[humbucker]

First off, let me say that with the exception of a few posts, this has been a surpringly good debate.

I have some strong thoughts on this subject. I also have a penis, which means I don't have a vagina and can therefore not have a baby. I wouldn't for a second assume that I know what pregnency is like.

I appreciate that everyone has their own opinions and are welcome to express them, but when men become a part of the legislative process to control pregnancy, that's just selfish and ignorant. Men can never know what it's like to be pregnant, and no, watching that Arnold Shwartzeneggar movie 'Junior' doesn't count!

It gives me the creeps when I see guys on tv, or wherever for that matter, talking about abortion as though they have a say in the matter. Woman's body, woman's choice.

 

[booboobear]

First off, let me say that with the exception of a few posts, this has been a surpringly good debate.

I have some strong thoughts on this subject. I also have a penis, which means I don't have a vagina and can therefore not have a baby. I wouldn't for a second assume that I know what pregnency is like.

I appreciate that everyone has their own opinions and are welcome to express them, !

It gives me the creeps when I see guys on tv, or wherever for that matter, talking about abortion as though they have a say in the matter. Woman's body, woman's choice.

To me this is a cop out saying it's the womens body , first of all she didn't get pregnant by herself. According to your reasoning if she decided to abort a 7 month old child that would be ok because it's her body. It's the childs body we are talking about . Man or woman you have to decide either it's her body and she can kill a 8 month old child or it's not and society must impose restrictions.

 

[Svend]

How many decide to abort at 7 or 8 months? Clinics don't touch that stuff.
Don't bring extremes into the debate as if they were common.

 

[fuji]

So who cares?

We all have opinions and you demand yours be relivant. Yet you dismiss others who disagree with you. This makes your opinion invalid.

This makes you silly. I pointed out that abortion is a question of rights (no matter which side you are on), and illustrated what the key questions were, then I went on to give my opinion on how to resolve it. Along the way I pointed out that several questions people have raised here, while interesting, actually have no bearing on whether or not abortion should be permitted because they do not speak to the rights issue, and are mooted by it (no matter which side you are on). It's pointless to get carried away arguing over whose "fault" it is or who could have "prevented" pregnancy or whether there are "better" methods of birth control--we could all agree on all of those things, and still be on opposite sides of the abortion issue, because we would have opposing views over whether the fetus has any rights or over whether those rights are superior to a woman's right to control her body.

Sure, part of it was my opinion (the part where I gave my answer to the rights question), but part of it just laid out the framework for the debate. Your response, dismissing it all off hand without giving any analysis of your own, is nonsensical.

Either you have some reason to believe it is not just a question of rights, in which case explain your alternative framework for analysis, or you are just blowing smoke.

 

[booboobear]

How many decide to abort at 7 or 8 months? Clinics don't touch that stuff.
Don't bring extremes into the debate as if they were common.

You miss the point , either you believe you have the right to take a life or you don't I don't believe it is up to women only to decide when they think it's ok to destroy a fetus.

 

[fuji]

You miss the point , either you believe you have the right to take a life or you don't I don't believe it is up to women only to decide when they think it's ok to destroy a fetus.

I agree with you completely that you either believe you have that right or you don't. I believe the woman DOES, you believe she DOESN'T.

If you honestly ask yourself WHY you believe that a fetus is a person with rights, ultimately, I think if you're honest it boils down to religious/philosophical beliefs that you have that other people don't have. Nothing wrong with that. No-one can say your beliefs are wrong and that someone else's are right.

The problem is how to address this as a society, where we have very personal but very different beliefs about such an important issue. It is worth noting that these basic differences will probably NEVER be resolved. It will probably NEVER happen that everyone eventually decides that the fetus is or isn't a person.

At the highest level as a society I think we have to tolerate each others beliefs. That means people who think that it's wrong have a right to express that viewpoint. It also means that people who don't think it's wrong ought to have a right to get an abortion.

 

[booboobear]

I agree with you completely that you either believe you have that right or you don't. I believe the woman DOES, you believe she DOESN'T.

If you honestly ask yourself WHY you believe that a fetus is a person with rights, ultimately, I think if you're honest it boils down to religious/philosophical beliefs that you have that other people don't have. Nothing wrong with that. No-one can say your beliefs are wrong and that someone else's are right.

.

I understand the point you are trying to make but let me clarify.

A women can choose to do what she wants with HER body a developing child is not her property.

My belief the fetus is a person has nothing to do with religion more science.
It is a person, when it is I don't think you or anyone can precisely identify yet you want to let people decide to abort. I don't think there is any point nature says yesterday you were a fetus today you ar ehuman.

Yes people choose sometimes I think for convenience , when I was young I was more selfish and would have said it's only a fetus so it doesn't matter.

 

[fuji]

A women can choose to do what she wants with HER body a developing child is not her property.

See, this is where we differ. I think up until some point a developing child is just a lump of tissue that is essentially a part of the woman, and she can remove it if she wants to, the way she could opt to remove a wart, or cut her finger nails. You may find that language shocking, but that really is because you have a very different belief than I do. I am just trying to highlight where the difference is so we can both see it clearly. I respect that you have your different beliefs here.

My belief the fetus is a person has nothing to do with religion more science.

That's odd, given that the whole idea of "person" itself has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with religion. "Person" is a philosophical/religious notion in and of itself and that is where all the trouble comes from here: While we all agree on some fundamentals about what a person is, we do not completely agree.

It is a person, when it is I don't think you or anyone can precisely identify yet you want to let people decide to abort. I don't think there is any point nature says yesterday you were a fetus today you ar ehuman.

I agree with you, there is no point in nature where something becomes a person. Something becomes a person only in religion and philosophy. Nature has little to do with it.

 

[lenharper]

It makes sense that there would be so many posters opposed to abortion on an escort review board. I mean really, without all the broken homes and unloved children where would we get all the escorts and strippers from?

 

[WhaWhaWha]

WhaWha says abortion is a form of contraception.
Abortion isn’t contraception. Contraception PREVENTS pregnancy.

You are right. I should have used the words "birth control" instead of "contraception."

...what about the 13 year old retarded girl whose daddy fucked her. She is 4’3” with the mind of a 5 year old. I drove her for an abortion. Her tiny body would have a hard time going thru a full term pregnancy, but she would probably live. You would force her to endure all that.

I didn't say that. In the case of my friend, his parents were adults and willing parties. This girl you helped is a different case and I would have driven her to the clinic myself. The point I was making is that life is about choices. There are exceptional cases that prove exceptions to every belief. People often choose to use abortion frivolously. Many terminations are performed needlessly.

My belief is that in cases where there are workable alternatives, (a 4' 3" young developmentally challenged girl who might survive is not an alternative) where there is the full capacity to follow through without danger, where the parties are capable adults who will manage one way or another, these alternatives should be considered. In the end it should still be the womans choice.

 

[booboobear]

See, this is where we differ. I think up until some point a developing child is just a lump of tissue that is essentially a part of the woman,



That's odd, given that the whole idea of "person" itself has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with religion. "Person" is a philosophical/religious notion in .



I agree with you, there is no point in nature where something becomes a person. Something becomes a person only in religion and philosophy. Nature has little to do with it.

You are really avoiding the issue by trying to turn it into a semantics issue.
Don't complicate it , by person I mean as opposed to a dog or a horse you are a person , say man or women , if that makes you feel better. I find it interesting you say up until some point it's a lump of flesh, well first of all what makes you think you are capable of deciding when it is no longer a lump of flesh . The trouble with that is that everyone will have their own opinion as to when it's ok to abort mostly based on what is convenient to them.

As to your comparison of a fetus to a lump like a wart need I remind you that warts don't become or are not humans and never will be so the comparison is a little weak.

 

[fuji]

You are really avoiding the issue by trying to turn it into a semantics issue.

It *is* a semantics issue. The whole thing boils down to whether or not a fetus is a person. That's semantics.

Don't complicate it , by person I mean as opposed to a dog or a horse you are a person , say man or women , if that makes you feel better.

Right, by person I mean as opposed to a dog or a horse or a fingernail clipping, or a fertilized egg, you are a person.

I find it interesting you say up until some point it's a lump of flesh, well first of all what makes you think you are capable of deciding when it is no longer a lump of flesh.

That question sounds like a good one on the surface, but ultimately, it's not a good question. If not we humans, who else is going to decide this question? Are rocks and cats going to decide? No. Only humans can decide things like this, and we decide these things on the basis of religion and philosophy. So what are you really asking? We pretty much make this stuff up as we go along, we pretty much have to do that. How can I *not* decide this? How can I even help deciding? I pretty much have to decide.

The trouble with that is that everyone will have their own opinion as to when it's ok to abort mostly based on what is convenient to them.

I mostly agree with you. Sometimes people will have opinions that are inconvenient for them, though, they will often believe in inconvenient things because that is what their personal religion or philosophy dictates. But that's a quibble, essentially I agree with you--each person will have their own opinion as to when it is OK to abort, you are right.

As to your comparison of a fetus to a lump like a wart need I remind you that warts don't become or are not humans and never will be so the comparison is a little weak.

I agree with you a fetus will become a human, however, it doesn't change anything. I don't think an egg is a chicken, I don't think a seed is a tree, I don't think a lump of rock i the ground is a bar of gold. Given the right environment and enough time a fetus will eventually become a person, but that does not make it one right now, to me. I do realize that you have a different set of beliefs about what a person is and when a fetus becomes one, but I for one do not think that the potential to become a person makes you a person.

 

[fuji]

It is worth pointing out, I am not asking that anyone agree with my notion of when a fetus becomes a person. I am only asking people to agree that everyone will have a different idea. I don't think there is any way to say who is "right" and who is "wrong" because it comes down to what you believe, it is a very personal, religious, philosophical thing.

Sometimes we have a general consensus on these kinds of questions. We all pretty much agree that it is wrong to kill a newborn child. Maybe a few crazies out there have some other idea, but overall, we have a general consensus about that.

In the case of aborting a fertilized egg, there is no general consensus. There's many people on either side of the issue. Absent a general consensus it is my opinion that a tolerant society ought to leave the matter up to each person and their own conscience.

I have a great deal of respect for anyone who says, "I would never abort my baby because I believe that baby is a person, right from the moment of conception". I have no way of telling them that they are wrong--I cannot force my beliefs on this person. They are right according to what they believe.

Similarly, I have a great deal of respect for someone who says, "I will abort my baby because I don't believe at this point the baby is a person". That person is right according to their beliefs too, and, absent any general consensus that they are wrong, they ought to be able to act on those beliefs.