4 More Years!

[someone]

I had the luxury of being educated in Germany. Americans are being short changed when it comes to education. Unless you have the money to go an elite school.
If i compare the level of instruction ad the amount of homework of my niece and my own children I get worried. They are so far ahead of our children. canada is not much better than the USA in that regard.
No my argument is not bogus. As always it comes from personal experience.

I've taught students in both Canadian and American universities and I would say that the situation in Canada is not nearly as bad as the situation in the U.S. The only parts of Canada were the
education system comes close to being as bad as the U.S. is the
Atlantic proveinces. Even in the Atlantic provinces, I don't think the high schools are as bad.

 

[papasmerf]

I've taught students in both Canadian and American universities and I would say that the situation in Canada is not nearly as bad as the situation in the U.S. The only parts of Canada were the
education system comes close to being as bad as the U.S. is the
Atlantic proveinces. Even in the Atlantic provinces, I don't think the high schools are as bad.

As an educator, how much responsiblity do you take for the system you work within?

 

[Asterix]

As an educator, how much responsiblity do you take for the system you work within?

Good question. Let's ask another. As an employee, how much power over finances or how things are run, do you imagine he has?

 

[someone]

As an educator, how much responsiblity do you take for the system you work within?

As you likely know, teaching is only part of the job of an academic. The teaching part of the job can be held against you but it will rarely help your career. Nonetheless, I do try to do my best and try to take and active role when it comes to program development, etc.

However, my post was meant to refer to the to the high school systems and my observations of them based on how well they prepare students for university. When I get first year students totally unprepared for university (e.g. students with grade 12 math who cannot preform basic operations), I generally don't take any responsiblity other than offering help when they ask for it and refering them for remedial help at various help centers in the university. In the end, we are requried to adjust grades so that many unqualified students pass. I think this is a mistake as it hides the problems with the high school systems. I think that if we were more honest and failed more unprepared first year students, it would create political pressure to improve the highschool system. However, doing so alone would do no good and hurt my career. Still, I try to do what I can to keep standards up.

 

[papasmerf]

Good question. Let's ask another. As an employee, how much power over finances or how things are run, do you imagine he has?

Easy amswer
as an employee
I am one of the fisrt people a customer sees. My attitude, profesionalism and ability affects the customers opinion of the company. If i do a good cost effective job it will generate repeat business. If i do a less than par job and the customer is left with a substandard product, we loose a customer. In the real world people expect things to work and jobs they pay for to be done right.

It seems in education we makes excuses so we can accept less than excellent work from educators. Granted every student has a different learning factor. BUT when they hit the real world 100% is what is expected of them.

 

[someone]

Easy amswer
as an employee
I am one of the fisrt people a customer sees. My attitude, profesionalism and ability affects the customers opinion of the company. If i do a good cost effective job it will generate repeat business. If i do a less than par job and the customer is left with a substandard product, we loose a customer. In the real world people expect things to work and jobs they pay for to be done right.

It seems in education we makes excuses so we can accept less than excellent work from educators. Granted every student has a different learning factor. BUT when they hit the real world 100% is what is expected of them.

Actually,I think that seeing students as customers is half the problem with the education system. The more students universities accept and don't fail in first year, the greater the revenues from government and tuition. Moreover, in provinces with one university, the government can put added pressure on it not to criticize the highschool system. Offending customers is never a good business practice, whether that customer is the government paying the big bills or students paying part of the cost

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Isolationists

Well OTB, the people in the US not wanting to get involved in WWII Europe were the "right wingers".

My original point was not to debate the morality of war, but to say that the American electorate apparently doesn't take the Iraq war very seriously, according to the exit polls.

Or perhaps they could not distinguish a difference in the way the Iraq war would be conducted by the D's or R's.

Obviously though, the R's will pursue the use of force to cause further regime change. This will be very much a "US only" campaign.

This is much more significant in my view, at least, than gays
getting married. The 17% youth turnout also casts a long shadow over US democracy.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with your point about their being no difference between how Kerry or Bush would proceed in Iraq - thus it wasn't a decisive issue.

I disagree with you blanket statement that "Obviously though, the R's will pursue the use of force to cause further regime change. This will be very much a "US only" campaign." I actually think the experience in Iraq will make the moderates in the Bush administration more powerful (Powell was right - you break it you fix it), they won't be keen to fix it again alone.

OTB

 

[papasmerf]

Actually,I think that seeing students as customers is half the problem with the education system. The more students universities accept and don't fail in first year, the greater the revenues from government and tuition. Moreover, in provinces with one university, the government can put added pressure on it not to criticize the highschool system. Offending customers is never a good business practice, whether that customer is the government paying the big bills or students paying part of the cost

In the education system, the customer is the public and parents. And I agree that the don't fail process is part of the problem. Another huge part of the problem is the $275.00 per day per student that is considered handicaped, paid by NYS to the schools for hving the students. This winfall of cash brought about the school shrinks pushing ADHD and ADD as problems. Forced thousands of children on rittilin and later prozac and other durgs. The system is broken, from tenured teachers who have a job for life to the over abundance of administration is some districts. My bet though is teachers like doctors never move to remove the bad ones. Maybe if the system was a bit more regulated by concise standards we as the customer or taxpayer could weed out the ones just sucking societies milk and not giving in return.

 

[Asterix]

Easy amswer
as an employee
I am one of the fisrt people a customer sees. My attitude, profesionalism and ability affects the customers opinion of the company. If i do a good cost effective job it will generate repeat business. If i do a less than par job and the customer is left with a substandard product, we loose a customer. In the real world people expect things to work and jobs they pay for to be done right.

It seems in education we makes excuses so we can accept less than excellent work from educators. Granted every student has a different learning factor. BUT when they hit the real world 100% is what is expected of them.

Yes, that is an easy answer.

In my company, if my employees came to me and told me they thought we needed more help or new equipment, I would tend to listen to them since they have been with me for years. But guess what, that costs money. I could just as easily tell them no, you're going to have to work harder with what you've got and their only real recourse would be to quit. They have no power over how I decide to finance the company, how many employees I have or what direction the company takes.

It continues to amaze me how teachers are made the whipping boy for what is wrong in education. The ones I know are some of the hardest working and most dedicated people I've ever met.

 

[papasmerf]

Yes, that is an easy answer.

It continues to amaze me how teachers are made the whipping boy for what is wrong in education. The ones I know are some of the hardest working and most dedicated people I've ever met.

A teachers greatest tool is their ability to communicte on many levels. The books, computers and programs are aides to that ability.

 

[Asterix]

A teachers greatest tool is their ability to communicte on many levels. The books, computers and programs are aides to that ability.

Yes, and if there are not adequate tools, or enough teachers that are also adequately paid, we've got a problem.

 

[someone]

In the education system, the customer is the public and parents.

By definition, customers are those writing the cheques. As far, as parents are concerned, few want to find out that their kids are not suited for university

The system is broken, from tenured teachers who have a job for life

To be honest with you, I am not familar with the day-to-day operations of highschools. However, in universities it is the tenured professors that are most able to criticize the system. I have very rarely seen those without tenure strongly criticize those who will be deciding on their contract renewals or tenure decissions.

 

[Asterix]

The US can't win the peace in Iraq.
It'll go down as our second 'Nam.

As I reflect back on the election I've come
to the conclusion I'd rather see Bush try to
clean up that terrible mess he created.

My sentiments exactly, and made the same comment a couple times last week. Bush should own the shit he started. History deserves no less.

 

[onthebottom]

The US can't win the peace in Iraq.
It'll go down as our second 'Nam.

As I reflect back on the election I've come
to the conclusion I'd rather see Bush try to
clean up that terrible mess he created.
The mission will go down as a terrible mistake.

I don't take any pleasure in seeing US fail in Iraq.
First and foremost I'm an American. It will be a terrible
defeat for all of US. It's like OTB's saying: Beware of what
you wish for. Kerry would have been hammered had he won.
Since the Rs control the legislature and POTUS they will
have to bear the burden of this bungling mission. They won't
be able to pass the buck, which they're so good at.

Let's see how diplomatic and professional the Rs are in
a couple years. Let's revisit their excellence in government then.

The glass half empty if you're wishing the country well, the glass half full if you're a Liberal D hack.

We can only hope this is a accurate as DQ's election predictions and his threat to leave the country if Bush won.

Another Vietnam - geez, you should know better you were there. I visited the Vietnam memorial for the first time last week (election night actually) and was incredibly moved - all those names and nothing gained, it really hit me hard.

Remember DQ, there is only one force that can beat the US military, that is the US left. Perhaps the American people figured this out and kept the right guys in to finish the job.

OTB

 

[papasmerf]

By definition, customers are those writing the cheques. As far, as parents are concerned, few want to find out that their kids are not suited for university



To be honest with you, I am not familar with the day-to-day operations of highschools. However, in universities it is the tenured professors that are most able to criticize the system. I have very rarely seen those without tenure strongly criticize those who will be deciding on their contract renewals or tenure decissions.

I agree the best way to improve the system is have the parents more involved. BUT I suspect few teachers would embraces that.

 

[Drunken Master]

Remember DQ, there is only one force that can beat the US military, that is the US left. Perhaps the American people figured this out and kept the right guys in to finish the job.

OTB

That's right, DQ. Remember, the VietCong had nothing to do with the loss in Vietnam. It was all of you pot-smoking unpatriotic hippies. Just like inability to adapt to the realities of asymetrical warfare will have nothing to do with intransigence in the military beauracracy or incompetence in the executive branch - it will be because of the negative vibes coming from you damn flower-snorting, granola-crunching, sandal-wearing - did I mention you were unpatriotic? - hippies.

 

[onthebottom]

Please understand. I don't want to see it happen.
But Rumsfeld, Bremmer et al. screwed it up so badly
that all the kings horses and all the king's can't put
this fractured mess back together again. You and me
and all of US will pay a price for this mistaken mission.

We have very few options and none of those are good.

Why must you play this divisive game of left and right with me.
Truman said "The buck stops here." Kennedy took responsibility
for the Bay of Pigs debacle. Why can't you say you made a mistake
when you make a mistake. I thought the Rs are big on personal
responsibility. If you're going to talk the talk you'd better walk
the walk. How could the left be responsible for a war in Iraq.
I thought the Rs controlled the house and senate.

Already looking for scapegoats.
I sense that you're as concerned as me but you're using bluster
to cover your behind. You know we can't win this war for the
same reason we couldn't win in 'Nam. The VietNamese people
saw the government in Saigon as an American puppet. The same
thing is going on in Iraq. We had superior force and destroyed both
the NVA and VC, but we didn't have the support of the people.
They didn't want us there destroying their country with our
military might.

Know your enemy and know yourself and you'll win every war.
We didn't know and understand the VietNamese people. Likewise,
we don't know and understand the Iraqi people.

Don.

I think the destroying their country with our military phase is largely behind us, with elections in January the Iraqi government becomes more and more credible.

OTB

 

[Garrett]

I think the destroying their country with our military phase is largely behind us, with elections in January the Iraqi government becomes more and more credible.

OTB

It will be interesting. The appointed government is a joke. However, I do not see how the elections can be totally free. The US needs someone that will improve things, and it is not clear to me that going from Saddam to a theocracy would be a good move.

How does the US prevent a theocracy?

 

[Sargon]

How does the US prevent a theocracy?

By contolling the outcome of the elections (I'm not trying to be funny).

 

[danmand]

By contolling the outcome of the elections (I'm not trying to be funny).

Democracy is really a godsend to the Iraqi people.

Now, how do we avoid the US becoming a theocracy?