4 More Years!

[Asterix]

So, now that Bush has won, America can get back to cracking down on immoral things like drugs and prostitution, teaching creationism in school, and banning condoms.

Well, you've gotta go with your strengths.

 

[onthebottom]

..what kind of idiotic statement is that ?, who put the sanctions on in the first place, get some more sleep.

The UNSC.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

OTB:

i think you better check your numbers 35,000 kids dying every day in Iraq due to sanctions? your talking about 12 000 000 kids a year in a country of 60 000 000..... get your facts straight buddy

I meant 35,000 kids (under the age of 10) were dieing every YEAR. My mistake, logic stands.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Just Desserts

Apparently the Republicans got the gay-hating Christians out in force, wile the Democrats were unable to deliver the "youth vote".

Participation of young voters was a miserable 17% . If there is a draft, they'll be justifiably wearing it.

I guess they couldn't get "excited" about two old guys dukng it out. Maybe when they are "down on the killing floor" they'll wake up.

In the 70s Canada benefitted from draft-dodgers coming north.
I hope we send these ones back! Truly pathetic. Doesn't bode at all well for US democracy. Even Timothy Leary was more tuned in than these clowns.

Was surprising, I guess Kerry had a hard time motivating those who didn’t hate bush. There will NEVER be a draft (and you can quote me on that).

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Its really funny how stupid rural America is.....your country is in a war based on lies that has already uneccessary killed 1300 troops and your economy is in the dumps but you decided your vote on gay marriage and abortion???

Unless you're Tom Daschle - LOL

This is the condescending attitude that keep the Democrats in the losers column. Silly Liberals.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

You just don't understand how powerful a force
religious beliefs are in the US. We were founded
by peoples that were persecuted for their beliefs.
That was in 1621. A page of history explains everything.

Religious values have always dominated my culture.
Read deTouqueville and you will begin to understand.
No other country in the West is so rooted to its religious values,
for better or worse.

Very true, the Economist did an excellent series of articles called Exceptional America (not meaning better, just different) and one of them focused on how much more religious Americans are than their counterparts in Europe.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Fair enough. I stand corrected. Considering the number of problems facing this country, I guess I would have hoped most people based their decision for president on character, the economy, education for their kids, health care, the war in Iraq, or what I thought had swung it, who they believed would better protect the country.Silly me.

If the vote was determined by gay marriage and abortion, I feel sadder about this election than I did before.

I think it's too simplistic to say it was about abortion or gay marriage but social issues and character did play a big role. At the end of the day each party worked to get its continuants out and the Republicans were able to turn out the Conservative Christians that Karl Rove has often said stayed home in 2000.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: 4 More Years!

OTB - Like you, I was expecting a Kerry win. Everyday, a new celebrity was speaking out in favor of Kerry. Hrs before the polls opened, Moore had posted a goodbye GB speech on his site. Then during the election, Kerry's crew seemed way positive.

But as you noted, not only winning, but knocking out Daschle and increasing control was amazing. I am impressed. I also liked the class shown by John Kerry in all of this. He handled the defeat well.

I was very impressed with Kerry's handling of defeat, Gore should take notes. When Kerry tired up I couldn't help think that if he'd let the country see him as more real and human earlier than his concession speech he might have won.

I thought Edwards’s intro was the first speech in the 2008 election, not that he has a snowballs chance in hell.

Teddy (another round please) Kennedy actually said in an interview Tuesday morning "President Elect Kerry" and the CNN guys had to correct him. My favorite part of Kerry’s speech was seeing an ashen Kennedy in the front row - he has to be hating life right now and I'm loving that.

OTB

 

[Drunken Master]

I meant 35,000 kids (under the age of 10) were dieing every YEAR. My mistake, logic stands.

OTB

Alexander the Great is on his way east. Along the way he encounters the heavily fortified capital of Pserpolis. Knowing a direct invasion will fail, he blockades the town. Years go by; horrible suffering ensues in Pserpolis. Thousands die.

Finnally, Alexander invades. Hundreds of thousands of Pserpolians are killed in the process; the city is nearly destroyed. Once the battle is over, Alexander proclaims proudly to the conquored: "There, now aren't you glad I saved you from starvation?"

How very logical indeed.

 

[banshie]

There was a big turnout for this election, which is a good thing. The percentage of young people (18 - 24), however, who voted was a miserable 17%! Very disturbing, IMO.

 

[onthebottom]

Oh silly OTB - it's not the condescending attitude that keeps Democrats in the losers column (we actually are that much smarter),

Thanks for proving my point, I know you were kidding, but deep down you really belive this and that is a problem.

it's the fact that a fundemental switch of political power has occured in the US from the coasts to the interior.

It's actually a North to South migration (Rust Belt to Sun Belt) and is continuing. This and the aging of the population are demographic problems the Liberals are going to have to deal with.

I think I can now make sense as to why the pre-election polling, the exit polling were so off based and that's because it samples the coastal states with a higher wieghting than the interior. In fact the US narrowly missed an interesting situtation in Ohio - with 131,000 votes Kerry could have won Ohio and the election while losing more than 51% of the popular vote. My hats off to Karl Rove if he figured that out before the election and his stunts like the "Dems to ban the Bible" in West Virgina and Arkansa, while considered laughable at the time by Dems may have been a stroke of genius. Gawd I hate saying nice things about Rove

Silly Liberals indeed - now if only the Democrats can learn from this.


bbk

Two things, on Charlie Rose last night 3 media writers were asked if Karl Rove was now an undisputed political genius - all three said yes. Kerry won Penn by the same margin that Bush won Ohio, very close in those states.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

There was a big turnout for this election, which is a good thing. The percentage of young people (18 - 24), however, who voted was a miserable 17%! Very disturbing, IMO.

Isn't that the normal turnout for this age group, I've heard that but haven't looked for any stats.

OTB

 

[tompeepin]

This and the aging of the population are demographic problems the Liberals are going to have to deal with.

Very very true. As people age they become more conservative ...
... and curmudgeonly.

Two things, on Charlie Rose last night 3 media writers were asked if Karl Rove was now an undisputed political genius - all three said yes. Kerry won Penn by the same margin that Bush won Ohio, very close in those states.

No doubt about it. But what does that say about politics? It does not matter if the opponent is a democrat or a republican. Look at John McCain in 2000. It sure would have been nice if McCain would have won the two terms are the republican leader.

 

[onthebottom]

Alexander the Great is on his way east. Along the way he encounters the heavily fortified capital of Pserpolis. Knowing a direct invasion will fail, he blockades the town. Years go by; horrible suffering ensues in Pserpolis. Thousands die.

Finnally, Alexander invades. Hundreds of thousands of Pserpolians are killed in the process; the city is nearly destroyed. Once the battle is over, Alexander proclaims proudly to the conquored: "There, now aren't you glad I saved you from starvation?"

How very logical indeed.

I certainly get the analogy but there are two issues, first the UNSC is the blockading army not just the US and second Iraq was not an innocent city besieged, they had attacked another country.

The sad part of all of this is poor civilians caught in the middle; you need to blame the guy who put them there. Look at Libya, not a shot fired - Saddam could have done this anytime he wanted.

OTB

 

[tompeepin]

I certainly get the analogy but there are two issues, first the UNSC is the blockading army not just the US and second Iraq was not an innocent city besieged, they had attacked another country.

The sad part of all of this is poor civilians caught in the middle; you need to blame the guy who put them there. Look at Libya, not a shot fired - Saddam could have done this anytime he wanted.

OTB

And Bush I could have finished the job and taken Saddam out in 1991, hence no siege.

 

[onthebottom]

Very very true. As people age they become more conservative ...
... and curmudgeonly.

Perhaps, but something happens to you when you have a career, kids, a mortgage and other responsibilities. You could just call it growing up and getting more mature or you can call it curmudgeonly... (again Liberal condescending attitude).

One of my favorite quotes is a Mark Twain quote (that I will butcher) When I was 18 my father was a fool, by the time I was 21 it is amazing how much the old guy had learned in 3 years" now that I've butchered it I'll have to go find it.

No doubt about it. But what does that say about politics? It does not matter if the opponent is a democrat or a republican. Look at John McCain in 2000. It sure would have been nice if McCain would have won the two terms are the republican leader.

McCain in 08 is my wish (I supported him in the 2000 campaign).

OTB

 

[banshie]

Isn't that the normal turnout for this age group, I've heard that but haven't looked for any stats.

OTB

I don't know what the stats are for previous elections. It is disturbing anyway, IMO.

 

[onthebottom]

And Bush I could have finished the job and taken Saddam out in 1991, hence no siege.

In hindsight that would have been better, don't know if the current situation would not have happened then as well. No "Global Test" would have been passed by doing that.

OTB

 

[Drunken Master]

I certainly get the analogy but there are two issues, first the UNSC is the blockading army not just the US and second Iraq was not an innocent city besieged, they had attacked another country.

The sad part of all of this is poor civilians caught in the middle; you need to blame the guy who put them there. Look at Libya, not a shot fired - Saddam could have done this anytime he wanted.

OTB

"The guy who put them there?" Jesus, you guys have a short memory. Where was all this concern for the Iraqi civilian back when Saddam was Rumsfeld's best buddy? What about all the Libyan civilains looking around wondering why just saying "I don't have any WMD's and I'm not going to develop any" gets their dictator a free pass, especially since it turns out that WMDs weren't much a threat to begin with? Why is super-intervenionalism the right policy for Iraq and super-conciliationism the right policy for Libya and Sundan and China and Equitorial Guinea?

Anyway, I'm sorry to interrup your thread-length gloat, OTB. I'm just one of Fukyama's bitter "Last Men" unable to accept the glorious American Jerusalem. Your side has sowed the wind, and the election now gives you all rights to reap the....well, you know the rest.

 

[tompeepin]

In hindsight that would have been better, don't know if the current situation would not have happened then as well.

Ah yes but then not only US boys would be coming home in body bags. Plus more divisions could have been sent in. There would not have been the hubris of “we can do this with very few troops�. What do I know ... But I strongly believe that more troops and a strong containment plan right from the beginning would have faired much better. It is harder to get back in hand that which has spiraled out of hand. The southern Shia would not have been in the same position as they are today (with the psychology of nothing to lose) due to Bush I leaving them to the slaughter in 1991. Just IMHO.

No "Global Test" would have been passed by doing that.

To hell with "global test" it is all about politics and horse-trading. The problem with this admin is that it is in the good ol' cowboy tradition of the lone ranger. Might does make right, but it is easier to achieve diplomatically, which has it's price, but as we have seen all things do, just different areas of cost.