Totally understand.
But then why do certain members keep talking about drinking the Leafs' Kool-Aid?
2020-21 Canadiens Thread
- Thread starter gcostanza
- Start date
But then why do certain members keep talking about drinking the Leafs' Kool-Aid?
Because being a fan is not rational. As it should be. You root for your team until out of nowhere... They win!
It's OK if it's your team's Kool-Aid, but it's totally fucked up when people do it for other teams.
Spend some time on the political section and it will all make sense.
It's like one of those irregular verbs. Which one you use depends on your position.
From Yes Minister
"I give confidential briefings, You leak, He has been charged under section 2a of the Official Secrets Act"
"I have an independent mind, You are eccentric, He is round the twist."
From Bertrand Russell
Emotive conjugation - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Because being a loyal fan of your team does not preclude you from being critical of your team's predicament,
and having realistic expectations and rejecting management propaganda in light of that team's historical and present performance.
edit — got rid of the unnecessary hyperbole at the top and focused on the poor comment — especially based on 4 games.
Regardless of age, What is the market value for a centre who scores 60 points, is a fairly good defender (bad at face offs though), and a strong playoff performer.
In the current NHL that is a centre that will make at least 6 million and up to 7 million, regardless of age. You realize centres are paid more right?
And Suzuki has done the above in his age 21 season. Even if he never improved from now until the age of 23-30 his contract will still be far from bad. In fact as salaries go up in 3 years or so (which most expect) his current performance will almost be worth the 7.75m cap hit.
Oh, but he has had a slow first 5 games on the scoresheet ( even though he could easily have 3 or 4 points with decent puck luck)a. That must mean he will not improve at all? Do you think that he will regress and will have his best year at age 21?
Bergevin has many many many things he has done wrong that can be criticized that are hurting the franchise right now. But this contract is not one of them. It is fair, the downside is not that bad , and if he improves to an 75+ point centre he would be outperforming the contract.
Last edited:
^^^Spoken like Suzuki's agent...his contract isn't the problem, how about Price's and Weber's...
That sounds like a good description.
In the Leafs case do you think that a majority of Leafs fans here forget about the past, are never critical of the organization and have unrealistic expectations? Keep in mind that the oddsmakers and analysts have had them consistently ranked among the top favourites the last couple of years and their business relies on being realistic. I don't think that they could be accused of drinking the Kool-Aid. They may get it wrong but it is not because they are all biased or influenced by being fans.
Based on what the experts have predicted what would have been unrealistic expectations for Leafs fans? Beating Montreal? Winning 2 rounds? Just asking.
Thanks for giving a good definition around which to have a discussion.
Yes, and if you look you’ll see that Zach Hyman has more goals so far this year than Marner, Nylander, Tavares and Austin Matthews combined.
Suzuki went on a post-season scoring spree and helped his team on a deep playoff run last season.
Marner was kind of like Suzuki except without the skating, goal scoring or playoff success.
Holy fuck, we are one week in the season, small sample size...meanwhile, Habs fans have been arrogant, whiney little crybabies. for 50 years.
No, definitely not the majority in here, but there are some, enough in general that I can understand where criticism of Leaf fans in general comes from.
I'm talking as a life long Leaf fan, and in retrospect I can recognize how I bought into the company line ("drank the kool aid"), over valuing talent, etc., for years.
Power rankings don't mean anything, how many of these experts have proven not to be experts, it's all opinion, and in all humility, I don't think most of them know more than I do, last four years prove that. Their business absolutely does not depend on being realistic, no more than mainstream media depends on telling you the truth. MLSE is so powerful in Toronto/Canada, they ensure no one rocks the boat to much, you'll never get access or insider info, or primo opportunities on these panels. I can't believe some of the utter nonsense that spews from those closest to the team.
Most of the guys I have respected were excited about the Leaf prospects early on, not so much now, but always revert to the fundamentals when giving a balanced viewpoint.
Does anyone really believe we're a better team with better chances than 2 - 3 years ago?
Again, I hope I'm wrong and we catch lightening in a bottle, but until then I see the Leafs trying to cobble older, cheaper players around a core
because they have no cap space and no more serious prospects that will improve the team.
They don't have any flexibility for trades. The players are either mediocre that won't get you a player of any impact, or they're very good
with insane contracts that no one will take on, except for Matthews maybe.
Shack, I think we're pretty close from the same generation, we're a bit older. With age I've lost most of my passion for sports.
On the one hand, I will not savor the victories if/when they come as I would have, on the other I think I see the reality with so much more clarity.
I'm not biting anymore.
I like to think that my expectations for the team are based mainly on my observations of what I see, and it's probably the same approach for anybody who watches a significant amount of games. Only somebody who does not really follow a team has to rely on the opinions of others, i.e. drink the Kool-Aid.
I think it may be unfair to judge the knowledge of the experts based solely on their assessment of the Leafs. There's 31 other teams and MLSE has nothing in what's said about those teams. Do the analysts perform as poorly with the rest of the league as they do with the Leafs? I don't know. Who can follow 32 teams? LOL
Analysts and media are one area regarding their opinions (although their individual jobs and reps are on the line) but the oddsmakers predictions/opinions affect billions of dollars being wagered and if they are not knowledgeable it could cost their employers hundreds of millions. They have to have a clear balanced grasp of what's happening to do their jobs properly. Are they good at doing their jobs for football and other sports, but not for hockey? I know that other factors come into play when setting odds/lines, such as teams from cities with larger populations etc, but it is essential for them to be realistic about how teams are ranked. To think that they are ignorant as a group because the Leafs, one team, crap out may be looking at them from a very narrow angle.
I agree with your assessment, but as I will form my opinion based on what I see on the ice, as I believe you will do as well, and as well as other fans who form their own observational opinions, there is no Kool-Aid involved there. We are taking a wait and see approach. Management is trying to win but that doesn't mean everything will work out as planned. As I mentioned earlier, only somebody who really doesn't follow the sport will rely on what they hear from team management. And as far drinking the team's Kool-Aid what have they promised in terms of results that the Kool-Aid will make people believe will happen?
To be honest, I think that a lot of this Kool-Aid talk is from fans of other teams mocking Leafs fans. Just because the pundits and media overestimate what the Leafs will do, somehow they seem to think that that fans of the Leafs who actually assess what happens on the ice, are incapable of forming their own opinions.
Man, as a kid, I lived and died with the Leafs, and followed the NHL religiously. The players didn't need to have numbers as far as me being able to follow the games. The Leafs being perennial losers definitely put a damper on things, but for me the real enthusiasm killer was how the game evolved...for the worse.
Goon hockey, then clutch and grab dead puck era hockey and now the overcoached, never get caught out of position, non-creative, huge goalie equipment hockey have made hockey less fluid and entertaining for me. My only true enthusiasm now is for Olympic or international best on best hockey. NHL hockey is currently a shadow of the beautiful sport it once was. There is much less entertainment value to today's game from when I first started watching.
But I had a helluva good time following those Blue Jays this year.
50 years ago was 1971/1972
So they were crybabies when Montreal won 5 years in a row and dominating the regular season.
Not positive, but I thought that it was 4 in a row in the late 70's. 5 in a row was the 50's.
Looked it up. You were right. Still, 4 or 5, doubt there was much crying and whining back then
I never said Price or Weber’s contract were good moving forward (although let’s get to Weber later because it is very likely not an issue).
Regarding Suzuki — what is wrong with any of my key points. It is not agent or homer speak.
- Making an analysis on 5 games is silly.
- Expexting no progress from a 21 year old season is flawed.
- That a 60 point centreman (his past season) that is not a defensive liability has current market value of at least 6 million
Regarding Weber .. that contract has never really hurt Montreal up to this point nor will it ever likely hurt Montreal because of its structure.
— In his time in Montreal his AAV salarry has been about 7.5 million. he has played close to that level, maybe just a tad lower at times.
- In fact Subban had a slightly larger cap hit and has been less productive overall so they won the trade off.
- He is on LTIR this year so it has no cap consequences.
- Over the next 4 years after this one he is making 6 million total. Not 6 million per year, 6 million total (1.5 million per year). Do you really think he is coming back for his last 3 years to get paid 1 million annually?
— He will either stay on LTIR or retire. There are no cap consequences to Montreal. And if he retires he becomes Nashville’s problem due to recapture.
People always made a big deal of Weber’s last years on his contract but did not logically look at the last 4 years of his deal that pay him nothing.
Price’s contract will likely hurt for a few years. But we could possibly be heading to LTIR as well for the back end of his deal on the basis of mental health.
Noe the above has all been a justification of a few Bergevin moves. I am certainly not on Team Bergevin. But I will take on illogical statements made by haters of the team. Logic always prevails with me over bias.
Bergevin overall has done a terrible job and it is hitting a crescendo this year.
— He has done a terrible job drafting and with player development. This puts pressure on the cap because you cannot fill the roster with younger players who have contractual early year value.
— While he has been good at trades for the most part and made good FA signings recently, it does create future cap hell because none of these contracts are small.
- Specifically to this years team and future years since most of the contracts move forward-
A) He has spent way too much money on wingers. The team currently has 9 quality wingers. The 3rd and 4th line wingers when healthy make between 15-20 million which is ridiculous. The team arguably has 6 top 6 level wingers. Why are they spending so much money here instead of on Centre or D.
b) We have great wingers and terrible center depth. We have two centres who are good NHL players, and probably only one top 6 level centre The 3rd and 4th line centres are not even NHL level players, and you expect them to drive the play of quality wingers?
c) The power play is a mess because they try to play 3 or 4 wingers at a time because there is a lack of mobile D on the team.
d) Let’s get to the defence. The big D worked in the playoffs but it’s not great for regular season play. Too many of this type — Savard, chariot, Edmundson. And Petry is not getting younger or more mobile. Weber’s LTIR opened up cap space to get more mobile. instead Bergevin doubled down on the big types.
Way too much resources at wing and goalie, poor centre ice play and a D that is not mobile or particularly good. It’s a very poorly constructed roster. I’ll use the example of Hoffman.. Hoffman is a good player, but using the resources on Danault even if overpaid would have been much wiser.
Danault has actually driven good even strength play from his wingers especially in 2018-2020. What the hell are you expecting from Jake Evans. What is the point of having highly paid wingers if some of them are put in positions they can’t produce.
Last edited:
Thanfully desperate Bergevin had the common sense to put top 10 protection on the Dvorak deal.
But the odds of getting Wright no matter where you end up in the standings are low.
