20% of Canadians see 9-11 as a US plot!

[woolf]

And what reasoning do you use to come to the conclusion that they should not be listened to?

I'm really interested in your reasoning. Seems to me the only valid reasoning would be based on specific facts that would reasonably rule out the possibility that some members of the Bush admin were complicit in the 911 attacks.

I'm not convinced that they were involved, but when someone tells me that 19 men with box cutters under the planning of some sick old man hiding in a cave in the mountains of Afghanistan was able to overcome the combined civilian and military security forces of the USA and to crash planes into NYC and the Pentagon (the most heavily defended air space on earth ... keeping in mind that when golfer Paine Stewart's plane lost pressure and everyone passed out, they were able to have an F16 along side the plane with 18 minutes of it going off course, and within 22 minutes there were 4 F16's at the scene, ready to shoot the plain down if it started to head towards anything of importance) then I have to at least wonder what the fuck is more believable ... that the terrorists were just super incredibly lucky, or that they had some inside help ... on the face of it I would suggest that the "inside help" is the more plausible theory ... at the very least, the "inside help" theory shuld be seriously looked into (and not by Henry Kissinger.)

 

[stuckinabutt]

The "Gulf of Tonkin Incident" defined the beginning of large-scale involvement of U.S. armed forces in Vietnam. Historians have shown that the second incident was, at its best interpretation, an overreaction of eager naval forces, or at its worst, a crafted pretext for making overt the American covert involvement in Vietnam.

Vietnam's Navy Anniversary Day is August 5, the date of the second attack, Vietnamese time, where "one of our torpedo squadrons chased the U.S.S. Maddox from our coastal waters, our first victory over the U.S. Navy".

SSSSHHHHH this is a secret so secret they they named a day about it.

Hey Mabel what are the Vietnamese celebrating
gee I don't know Herb it must be a secret..

 

[dreamer]

It's not an conspiracy theory when you have so much proofffff it's an FACT!!!!

Please state one proof.

 

[dj1470]

One in 5 Canadians sees 9/11 as U.S. plot: poll

Just goes to show that 1 in 5 Canadians is a fucking MORON!!!!!!

 

[dreamer]

keeping in mind that when golfer Paine Stewart's plane lost pressure and everyone passed out, they were able to have an F16 along side the plane with 18 minutes of it going off course, and within 22 minutes there were 4 F16's at the scene, ready to shoot the plain down if it started to head towards anything of importance)

this seems to be standard misinformation conspiracists rely on

 

[woolf]

Really? Maybe you can correct the mis-information for us then?

 

[dreamer]

Really? Maybe you can correct the mis-information for us then?

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

Conspiracists ignore things like EDT and CDT, tends to get in the way of their theories

 

[woolf]

And what exactly does this show?

The first F16 was vectored to the plane at 0952 CDT .... then at "About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet, the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response."

Seems to me I was indeed wrong .. it wasn't 18 minutes ... it took just 2 minutes from the time the F16 was vectored to the plane till it arrived.

The only thing that this report shows is that although it was about an hour when radio contact was lost before the F16 was vectored to have a look, it says nothing to confirm when Payne's jet was considered off course or in trouble, but it can probably be assumed that it was around 0952 CDT when air traffic control considered the plane in real trouble (might even have been 16 minutes before the call for the F16 to re-vector ... hard to say, the report doesn't provide this information ... although all the news reports claim it was 18 minutes, so one might tend to believe that it might be correct.)

So in other words, some details may indeed be incorrect as I stated them, including the number of F15s and F16 that were rallied to the scene, more than 3, more like 5 or 6, but generally speaking the main point remains ... when called upon to respond to an off course plane, it doesn't take hours to respond ... and this was between Florida and Texas, and not over the much more heavily protected Washington and New York.

Conspiracy Theorists 1 dreamers 0

 

[dreamer]

And what exactly does this show?

that you were wrong, and like a true conspiracist you ignore the facts

the fact is the first people who started your quote misread the EDT and CDT, maybe do some real research rather than relying on other's quotes

Conspiracy Theorists 1 dreamers 0

only in your dreams my friend

 

[woolf]

Read the report your self .. within two minutes of being scrambled the F16 was on-site .... even if it took an hour for the word to get from the ATC to the military (which is unknown, but that would be about the maximum it could have taken given the report) then that is still lots of time to have prevented at least two of the planes from reaching their targets ... given that the military was informed of the off course 911 flights long before they reached their targets, and the 4 large jet liners were heading towards high profile areas rather than a small private jet heading into the wilderness.

Of course I bet you still believe that conspiracy that Saddam ordered 911 right?

 

[dreamer]

Read the report your self .. within two minutes of being scrambled the F16 was on-site .... even if it took an hour for the word to get from the ATC to the military (which is unknown, but that would be about the maximum it could have taken given the report)

Now you are using your brain and essentially confirming that it takes time to intercept a plane. The towers tracking Payne's plane knew it was in trouble well over an hour before a F-16 intercepted it, not the 18 minutes widely reported on conspiracy sites.

then that is still lots of time to have prevented at least two of the planes from reaching their targets ... given that the military was informed of the off course 911 flights long before they reached their targets, and the 4 large jet liners were heading towards high profile areas rather than a small private jet heading into the wilderness.

again, you are relying on misinformation quoted by others

Of course I bet you still believe that conspiracy that Saddam ordered 911 right?

kinda like you believing you are winning this argument

Now do not get me wrong, I do believe their was a conspiracy, however it occured after the attack, not before.

 

[Mongrel4u]

while I do question somethings about the entire 911 events.. I do not thinks its a gov't conspiracy

 

[woolf]

The towers tracking Payne's plane knew it was in trouble well over an hour before a F-16 intercepted it,

Now where are you taking this information from? There is no information that says that 5 minutes of radio silence is considered a troubled plane .... it could well be that some time later, after they watched the flight path for a while and determined that the flight was going off course that they realized that the flight was in trouble ... so we do know that it took the process of recognizing the plane was in trouble and notifying the nearest F16 somewhere between 2 minutes and 1 hour ... you claim it's the one hour ... news reports claim 18 minutes.

The timeline of Sept 11 shows that the Flight 11 went off course and shut down its transponder at 8:20, at 8:37 NORAD pilots in Cap Cod were notified .... so that's 17 minutes which lines up pretty well with the popular Stewart timeline... now for some reason there were no military in the air that morning nor even any on the ground in the area of the attacks (go figure eh?)

Damn those terrorists were sure "lucky" to pick such a perfect day to pull off their attacks .... the one day in the history of the US military aviation when it was not protecting US air space?

But not as lucky as whomever was responsible for putting the military in such a position, as for some reason no one was ever fired for what had to be either the greatest feat of incompetence in the history of man kind, or ... well let's not go there, it's not politically correct to suggest that someone on the inside might have been involved.

 

[dreamer]

The timeline of Sept 11 shows that the Flight 11 went off course and shut down its transponder at 8:20, at 8:37 NORAD pilots in Cap Cod were notified .... so that's 17 minutes which lines up pretty well with the popular Stewart timeline... now for some reason there were no military in the air that morning nor even any on the ground in the area of the attacks (go figure eh?)

I suggest watching the documentary being shown on CBC. I am not sure how many more times it will be shown but it responsibly reports what happened, timelines, and how things failed.

I found it very interesting when they talked with the military pilots about what their orders were, when they found out certain information and just what they saw that day. Only one pilot had shooting orders but he had no weapons. His plan was to ram a plane if necessary and hopefully eject.

Based on the documentary the FAA clearly failed. There was one taped conversation where the official was clearly confused what should be done. Only one person was authorized to contact the military and they could not find him.

There were other taped conversations where the military was asking about flight 93 and where it was not realizing it was already down.

 

[stuckinabutt]

And the CBC always tells the truth,lol

 

[dreamer]

And the CBC always tells the truth,lol

Did you watch it? It was very well done.

There seems to be a trend now to put down traditional media, but conspiracists still like to use their video and comments when it suits them.

 

[woolf]

Yes Dreamer, I was watching that doc as I was typing up my last message.

There certainly were lots of "excuses" as to why the military took over 80 minutes to "come to the rescue" just in time to be too late in every case!!!

The point though, isn't THAT they were always late to the show, the point is: is it likely that so much could have fucked up, all on the same day, that helped aid the terrorists to accomplish what should have normally been an impossible mission, even taking into consideration that the US military and the security they provide to the area might not have been as perfect as was let on?

You could reasonably believe that the first plane might make it to its target ... even believe that the second plane might get through as well ... but the third plane? Not even showing up for the fourth plane?

Shouldn't we be asking questions about how this could have happened. The main excuse being given is that no one who could have given the order to do something was available to give the orders to react? ... seriously consider this now, no one was available to give the order to act in the middle of a terrorist attack on the eastern seaboard of the USA ... a terrorist attack that was being broadcast live on every TV and radio station on earth?

You don't have to be a conspiracy nut to question the official story that the entire US military and civilian defence establishment were off doing something else and didn't notice they were under attack.

And let's say for the sake of argument that all the screw ups did happen due to a wild string of incompetences ... why is it that no one has been held accountable for all these "innocent" screw ups?

Something stinks .... but the worst part is that while there are plenty of real questions to be asked, most people like to just look at the most outrageous conspiracy theories and just concentrate on dismissing those theories and ignore the more reasonable questions.

I'm not here asking you to believe that Bush ordered cruise missiles wrapped in holograms of civilian airplanes to be fired into the side of the WTC buildings and Pentagon ... I'm asking you to consider the extreme set of unlikely coincidences and incompetencies that had to line up in order for four planes, piloted by box wielding terrorists, over the course of 2 or more hours, to be able to accomplish their objectives to crash their planes into high level targets on the US eastern seaboard, and that the whole US military and civilian defence system just happened to be on "coffee break".

The official story is about as believable as the worst of conspiracy stories ...

It's as though I told you that my house was on fire, but when I called the fire department they told me that there was no one available in the whole Toronto Fire Department that could actually order a fire truck to come and fight the fire ... I then blame it on Mayor Miller saying that he is actually working for a land developer and allowed my home to burn so the developer could buy it dirt cheap.

Then after confirming with the TFD that the reason they let my home burn was because no one was available to give the orders to go fight the fire, you, instead of asking how it could be that the whole TFD could possibly not have anyone available to order fire trucks to a fire, you dismiss the whole thing because I made some crazy accusation about Mayor Miller.

Seems some people can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[dreamer]

Shouldn't we be asking questions about how this could have happened. The main excuse being given is that no one who could have given the order to do something was available to give the orders to react? ... seriously consider this now, no one was available to give the order to act in the middle of a terrorist attack on the eastern seaboard of the USA ... a terrorist attack that was being broadcast live on every TV and radio station on earth?

I could not agree more. The problem is that all of the conspiracy sites are looking at the wrong conspiracy, probably because it is not as exciting and controversial.

Something stinks .... but the worst part is that while there are plenty of real questions to be asked, most people like to just look at the most outrageous conspiracy theories and just concentrate on dismissing those theories and ignore the more reasonable questions.

It is the conspiracy sites and those who blindly quote them without question who are the ones diverting us away from the more reasonable questions.

Seems some people can't see the forest for the trees.

I would lump all conspiracy proponents in that category.

 

[anomandar]

The problem is that all of the conspiracy sites are looking at the wrong conspiracy, probably because it is not as exciting and controversial.

You are right, Osama bin Laden somehow managed to have NORAD stand down, move all available air defense to the BC/Alaska border, planned 15 military excercises all terrorist related on Sept 11th so that when the planes were hijacked most thought it was part of 1 of the many military excercises. Then Osama made sure that the the fighters that were dispatched were sent to the middle of the Atlantic. All this from a cave dwelling terrorist..... mmmkay.

 

[woolf]

And don't forget how he managed to arrange for everyone with any authority, and anyone who might have contact with these people of authority, to be so distracted that they never had a chance to look at a TV or listen to a radio that morning.