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★ Have you made up your mind on climate change, yet?

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,358
12
38
Yes, and no matter what we here in Canada do it has no impact on global GHG emissions. We account for less than 2% of the carbon dioxide produced. So no matter how hard both Kathleen Wynne and Tinkerbell hit themselves in the forehead with a hammer it will have no effect other than making our lives more expensive.....then again, their climate change policies have nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with siphoning more money out of our pockets and using the moral high road of "wanting to do our part in fighting climate change". When China, India, Russia, The U.S. And others make meaningful cuts then we too should follow suit. Until then it's utterly pointless.
Hear, hear.

(I believe there's climate change and that it could be caused by man-made emissions. If the climate deniers want to make their case, they should expend their efforts on finding their cause for climate change, not just refuting AGW theory.)
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,516
22,161
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Yes, and no matter what we here in Canada do it has no impact on global GHG emissions. We account for less than 2% of the carbon dioxide produced. So no matter how hard both Kathleen Wynne and Tinkerbell hit themselves in the forehead with a hammer it will have no effect other than making our lives more expensive.....then again, their climate change policies have nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with siphoning more money out of our pockets and using the moral high road of "wanting to do our part in fighting climate change". When China, India, Russia, The U.S. And others make meaningful cuts then we too should follow suit. Until then it's utterly pointless.
Not entirely pointless, it won't effect the global climate massively but it shouldn't massively effect our economy now either.

Wind is now competitive with fossil fuels, switching over to it is a smart move economically for the future. It can't cover base loads, but it can be a cost effective move. Coal should just stay in the ground, we can do without it and its cost effective to leave it there and use green sources. The tar sands should probably also stay in the ground, that one will cost us some, but then again they are being processed now without costing water or environmental costs.

More new generation going up these days is now green across the world. Refusing to join that change marks Canada as an environmental pariah, and economically its just not smart. Right now we're in the middle of the Saudi's trying to put Russia and the US into recession through low oil prices, coupled with lower demand from more energy efficiency (again efficiency is efficiency, its just smart business).

The billions we are already paying in insurance costs and the growing costs those represent mean its just smart business to do what you can to lower those costs. Going green is going to be way cheaper in the long run, then dealing with crop failure, extreme weather and the other issues. Extreme weather in 2013 cost Canada $3.2 billion. What's spending a few hundred million to start lessening those costs?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/extreme-weather-cost-canada-record-3-2b-insurers-say-1.2503659
 

bishop

Banned
Nov 26, 2002
1,800
0
36
How the f*ck is wind now competitive with fossil fuels? Wind power is based on an AC motor but run in reverse, the AC motor when first invented by Tesla 100 years ago was already some 90% efficient. 25 years ago you could get an AC motor that was 99% efficient.
 

pseudo-code

JetSet
Dec 13, 2013
142
40
28
Agree that many of the global warming agenda is driven by politics. What isn't really. =) I think if we intend to have a meaningful discussion, we have to try and put politics aside and simply talk about ideas.

Although I don't agree that we are in the brink of boiling ourselves to death, I must say that there are undeniable evidence and science behind the claim that we are getting closer and closer to making parts of earth hostile.

Glad to hear that you think reducing the amount of carbon from the air is a good idea, but my point is that alone isn't enough. Like you said, we don't plant trees and they don't seem to (not sure about this) grow at the same rate as our carbon emission. So my point is we need to do that AND reduce our carbon emission if we hope to effectively stop the increase of this gas in our atmosphere (to be clear, where what we emit in to the air is the same amount being absorbed back to earth each year).

I also am a strong believer of "leading by example". Why wait and follow others when you can lead them? Just because they are big, doesn't mean they have to do everything first. In fact, maybe they are waiting for other countries to do it first? Then it becomes a stalemate. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you are Canada or China (one of two worst offenders) or Iceland, or Singapore. I think countries cannot (and should not) conclude that what they do won't matter. I think it will - though perhaps not on the bottom line figures of global greenhouse gas emission metrics - they will certainly help with setting the right examples for others to follow. It works, and sometimes even a country like the US needs an example first to know that it will work before it commits itself to changing their way of living. If I was governing a country, I would see this as an opportunity to lead the rest of the world - heck the smaller the country the easier it would be to get this done! Obviously there are other political influences and monetary factors that I am too naive to consider, but I have to disagree on the point that what Canada does have no impact on the global stage.

Doesn't look like anyone is debating climate change. That said, I think we are still talking about irrelevant items. I am hoping to hear ideas from this group. What can be done to promote planting trees? What can be done on the emission reduction front? What have you guys seen or heard other places are doing to make this work that is effective / proven. I think there is enough talk and reports about what is happening (ice melting, temps rising, crops dying, etc.) and not enough talk about what can be done that works at scale. For one, I think that Elon Musk is doing with his Tesla battery is interesting. He aims to significantly reduce carbon emission from vehicles on the road by swapping the traditional car engine that runs on gas with battery powered engine. Arguments can be made that ultimately coal is needed to charge the batteries , but the counter argument is that numbers show that we are not expected to burn that much more coal than we are already burning today to achieve that goal. In otherwords, it takes much less carbon to run a battery-powered vehicle than to run a fuel-engine car. Plus the source of battery power is not limited to coal. It can be nuclear, solar, wind, or anything else. Where as the traditional engines rely solely on gasoline. What do you guys think of this?

Side note: did you know that some trees are better at absorbing carbon than others?

I'm really big on this, as you can tell. =)
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,516
22,161
113
How the f*ck is wind now competitive with fossil fuels? Wind power is based on an AC motor but run in reverse, the AC motor when first invented by Tesla 100 years ago was already some 90% efficient. 25 years ago you could get an AC motor that was 99% efficient.
Read this.
http://fortune.com/2015/10/06/wind-cheap-coal-gas/

And this (uses same study by Bloomberg).
All told, these analysts found that the levelised costs for electricity from gas-fired power plants (CCGT) have risen from:
$76 → $82 per Megawatt-hour (MWh) in the Americas
$85 → $93 per MWh in Asia-Pacific
$103 → $118 per MWh in the EMEA region

The levelised costs for electricity from coal-fired power plants (CCGT) have risen from:
$66 → $75 per MWh in the Americas
$68 → $73 per MWh in Asia-Pacific, and
$82 → $105 per MWh in Europe

The levelised costs for electricity from wind and solar has dropped from:
$85 → $83 per MWh (onshore wind)
$176 → $174 per MWh (offshore wind)
$129 → $122 per MWh (solar photovoltaics - crystalline silicon)
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...rsus-fossil-fuels-in-some-parts-of-the-world/

Its pretty obvious green energy will continue to get cheaper and once the economic oil war ends fossil fuels will only go up.
 

Marcus1027

New member
Feb 5, 2006
921
0
0
Not entirely pointless, it won't effect the global climate massively but it shouldn't massively effect our economy now either.

Wind is now competitive with fossil fuels, switching over to it is a smart move economically for the future. It can't cover base loads, but it can be a cost effective move. Coal should just stay in the ground, we can do without it and its cost effective to leave it there and use green sources. The tar sands should probably also stay in the ground, that one will cost us some, but then again they are being processed now without costing water or environmental costs.

More new generation going up these days is now green across the world. Refusing to join that change marks Canada as an environmental pariah, and economically its just not smart. Right now we're in the middle of the Saudi's trying to put Russia and the US into recession through low oil prices, coupled with lower demand from more energy efficiency (again efficiency is efficiency, its just smart business).

The billions we are already paying in insurance costs and the growing costs those represent mean its just smart business to do what you can to lower those costs. Going green is going to be way cheaper in the long run, then dealing with crop failure, extreme weather and the other issues. Extreme weather in 2013 cost Canada $3.2 billion. What's spending a few hundred million to start lessening those costs?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/extreme-weather-cost-canada-record-3-2b-insurers-say-1.2503659
There you all go again, nobody pays attention to what Canada does or doesn't do other than the masses of self absorbed liberals in both Ottawa and Queens Park!!
 

bishop

Banned
Nov 26, 2002
1,800
0
36
Those coal prices are artificially inflated, actual cost of coal power is less than half of the stated number in the article.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
171
63
If the climate deniers want to make their case, they should expend their efforts on finding their cause for climate change, not just refuting AGW theory.)
You're proving my point -- that's a political argument, not a scientific one.

For one thing, you test a hypothesis by measuring the results against the predictions. If the results don't support the predictions, you can conclude that there is a problem with the hypothesis. An alternate explanation isn't essential, particularly in something as complex as predictions about the Earth's climate.

Furthermore, your statement assumes there is something that needs to be explained.

That assumes there has been something unprecedented or unusual in some of the warming that has occurred post-1950 (in particular, in the period from the late 1970s to the late 1990s). While there is agreement that warming has occurred, there is significant disagreement about whether it was in any way unusual or unprecedented.

Your statement also assumes that there is agreement about the findings of the controversial hockey-stick graph and its conclusions that the Earth's temperature in the previous 900 years was relatively flat -- findings that have been widely disputed, including disputes from believers in AGW.

If the current temperature patterns aren't unusual, as many believe, then there is nothing that needs to be explained. The climate changes. Always has. Always will.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,516
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You're proving my point -- that's a political argument, not a scientific one.

For one thing, you test a hypothesis by measuring the results against the predictions. If the results don't support the predictions, you can conclude that there is a problem with the hypothesis. An alternate explanation isn't essential, particularly in something as complex as predictions about the Earth's climate.
The results do support the projections.
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...e-change-yet&p=5476667&viewfull=1#post5476667

Furthermore, your statement assumes there is something that needs to be explained.

That assumes there has been something unprecedented or unusual in some of the warming that has occurred post-1950 (in particular, in the period from the late 1970s to the late 1990s). While there is agreement that warming has occurred, there is significant disagreement about whether it was in any way unusual or unprecedented.
This has been discussed and is incredibly wrong. According to studies the odds that you are correct and the odds that the warming we are undergoing is 'natural' or unprecedented is 0.01%.
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...e-change-study

Your statement also assumes that there is agreement about the findings of the controversial hockey-stick graph and its conclusions that the Earth's temperature in the previous 900 years was relatively flat -- findings that have been widely disputed, including disputes from believers in AGW.

If the current temperature patterns aren't unusual, as many believe, then there is nothing that needs to be explained. The climate changes. Always has. Always will.
The consensus is clear and definite. The very vast majority of all legit scientists support the findings of the IPCC on AGW. While you have been found to directly lie about studies that prove the consensus.
You are a liar.
In fact, 48 per cent of respondents didn't support the IPCC's position on man-made global warming.
.
No.
That's not what the study found, they said:
"These results, together with those of other similar studies, suggest high levels of expert consensus about human-caused climate change."
.
A typical post from moviefan, three claims, all 'spectacularly wrong'.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,516
22,161
113
:biggrin1:
I see you are going back to 'goal post move #3' again.
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...e-change-yet&p=5475756&viewfull=1#post5475756

That was #3 of #5 attempts to cheat the bet, and it is an incredibly stupid claim. You claim that on a bet on the increase in the global anomaly from 1995-2015 that for some weird reason the bet should be retroactively adjusted to 2014's numbers. Total nonsense and one of your stupider attempts at cheating.

You really still can't accept that 0.87 is higher then 0.83, can you?
-- We bet that the temperature anomaly would increase in 2015 to 0.83ºC
http://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,516
22,161
113
:biggrin1:
Dude, you are really acting like an arsewipe.
Repeatedly putting quotes out of context just makes you look shadier then wazup's business partner.

The first quote was not talking about the terms of the bet, it was talking about your continual attempts to 'move the goal posts', this one was cheat #3, as noted 2 posts earlier.
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...e-change-yet&p=5475756&viewfull=1#post5475756
The quote really says:
It was a year-over-year increase of 0.15ºC of the 2014 anomaly from the time of the bet. But the terms of the bet were clear, they were based on the global anomaly hitting 0.83ºC, not 0.83ºC + 'whatever it takes to make moviefan win'.

You agreed to continue the bet on its original terms, not to change the terms to your 'adjusted' numbers.
The quote says the opposite of what you claim.
As for your second quote:
I have never said any such thing, its yet another weasel move, an out and out direct lie.

And as for your third quote, please continue to post it, it just makes you look like a total idiot.
As noted in the post you are replying to, #232.

You lost the bet, acting like a weasel only confirms that you are a 'denier', a conspiracy theory fool who can't string together a serious argument and instead has to resort to lies and misquotes.
Pathetic.

This was the bet:
So in order to win the bet, all the temperature has to do is hit 0.83ºC anomaly for the year of 2015, correct?
http://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/

If that's the chart you're saying will hit 0.83 at the end of 2015, we definitely have a bet.
Click on the link in the bet above to see who won the bet!

0.87ºC
http://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/t
You lost the bet.
Time to pay up.
Stop being a weasel.


You lost the bet.
As loser you must buy these two books, read them and review them here:
http://www.amazon.ca/The-Hockey-Stick-Climate-Wars/dp/0231152558
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/05...=as2&tag=grlasbl0a-20&linkId=F7NQQFQ4THAO2JDE
 

Bud Plug

Sexual Appliance
Aug 17, 2001
5,069
0
0
Just wondering, if we're all agreed that the earth is in a period of increasing global temperature (on average), leaving aside what portion of this is due to human activity, what is the data regarding the tree lines bordering artic and sub-arctic regions around the world? I would have thought that, in Canada, you would see a northern expansion of the tree line. If that is so, wouldn't increased forestation offset CO2 levels?

If the tree line is expanding northward, and the climate of northern Canada is becoming more hospitable (and northern Canada, for all practical purposes includes everything more than 500 km from the US border), this could be great news for the Canadian economy and the environment! We'll finally be able to effectively develop the resources of the country, and encourage relocation from the overpopulated (and over polluting) southern cities like Toronto.

Global warming could be Canada's godsend!
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,516
22,161
113
Just wondering, if we're all agreed that the earth is in a period of increasing global temperature (on average), leaving aside what portion of this is due to human activity, what is the data regarding the tree lines bordering artic and sub-arctic regions around the world? I would have thought that, in Canada, you would see a northern expansion of the tree line. If that is so, wouldn't increased forestation offset CO2 levels?

If the tree line is expanding northward, and the climate of northern Canada is becoming more hospitable (and northern Canada, for all practical purposes includes everything more than 500 km from the US border), this could be great news for the Canadian economy and the environment! We'll finally be able to effectively develop the resources of the country, and encourage relocation from the overpopulated (and over polluting) southern cities like Toronto.

Global warming could be Canada's godsend!
The tree line will move north, though I haven't seen any studies on how likely that would be or how fast it would be. You could check it out just googling 'tree line moving north climate change', that'll give you some studies and reports. And while you do that you should check whether that balances out with tree loss due to increased forest fires we've seen over the last few years. And check to see whether we need to worry about increased drought in the prairies or any other major changes to our climate, while you're at it.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,516
22,161
113
:biggrin1:
Hey weasel.
Quote #1 is a statement, and it doesn't refer to the terms of the bet. To infer that it does is yet another lie.

Quote #2 is a lie, and is yet another example of bad denier math and attempts to 'move the goal posts'.
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...e-change-yet&p=5475756&viewfull=1#post5475756


You really are getting worse and worse, you've stopped denying you've lost, stopped trying to raise arguments why you didn't lose and have resorted to idiotic misquotes.
Here, just for your entertainment is a 'moviefan styled' post using the type of out of context quotes you have resorted to:

the "pre-industrial age" refers to the year 1990
NASA and NOAA don't use sea surface temperatures in their calculations of the global temperature anomalies
the ninth month of the year is "March"
0.75 + 0.82 + 0.84 + 0.71 + 0.71 is 0.766 is "denier math"
there wasn't a single month in 2015 that was a record breaker
it's "denier math" and "moving the goal posts."
I'm "lying,"
LMFAO! :biggrin1:
 
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