Trump/Zelensky deal turns into Jerry Springer episode

DesRicardo

aka Dick Dastardly
Dec 2, 2022
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Clamping down on waste and fraud is going to negatively impact many people directly and inadvertently.

Real leadership requires looking at long-term benefits. Politicians only care about short term gains, especially during election seasons.

Trump has the wherewithal to understand that the status quo is a train on a collision course.

We had a leader like that in Ontario many years ago named Mike Harris.
Fraud and wasteful spending are two separate things. Wasteful spending is an open discussion.

In order to get to long-term benefits, short-term goals must be hit. That's how you don't get suckered into things like this.

Trump can say anything he wants, In the end it's about delivering results. And just think, negotiations with China haven't even started.


You say "Real leadership requires looking at long-term benefits." then you mention Mike Harris. Sorry, doesn't line up. :ROFLMAO:
 
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nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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So why are you against security guarantees, since they are just part of the never-perfect trust process necessary to a peace deal?
I am not in principal as I believe they are meaningless. But the more security guarantees given by NATO nations only means continuation of the war. IMHO Russia has no desire to stop until Ukraine has no Black Sea coast. If you have any sense of history you would also understand why Odessa belongs with Russia. Maybe also Kiev. Ukraine is really Livov minus the Polish and Hungarian lands. That's the REAL Ukraine.(BTW I have have a few drinks at this point so I may disagree with myself tomorrow) 🤣🤷‍♂️
 

northofsixty

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Jun 23, 2017
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Trying to stay in a Happy Place

WyattEarp

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May 17, 2017
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Think of it from Zelenskyy's POV:
His country HAD a security guarantee in exchange for giving up nukes. That guarantee was not honored by the Russians. First in Crimea, then in a full fledged invasion by the Russians. He's only asking for the tools to defend his country from obliteration. He's not asking for bodies. He's fighting for his country's sovereignty. Now he's being asked to give up a chunk of his bank account (rare earth minerals etc) but he wants ironclad guarantees because he knows how well the Russians honored the last guarantee.
Remember he sees daily his country is having its hospitals and schools and residential units and power grid routinely blown up by rocket attacks. He also knows a Russian takeover means certain death to a big chunk of Ukrainians, through arrests and unfortunate falls from windows.

For less than 5% of its DoD budget the USA was able to knock out a third of the Russian army. One of the best investments it has ever made. Plus it's learning from the Ukrainians new tactics.

The framing of this in that white house "discussion" disturbs me. It's like there is a sense this war with Ukraine v Russia was 2 blokes going the biff in a bar fight. But this was an invasion, more like a mob of blokes attacking someone on their front lawn. And the bloke forced into a fight on his lawn is the problem? There is no war if the Russians leave Ukraine. So somehow it's Zelenskyy who is fighting for his country's freedom with the Russian army inside his country attacking his army AND civilians is somehow the one prolonging this? If he stops fighting he and his country are doomed.

That's why he's willing to resign and/or give up the minerals but he wants an ironclad guarantee. He remembers the last guarantee.
Every country in that region has a history with the Russians. None of it is good.

Now a side effect of Trump walking away is all of the US allies in Asia are shitting their pants as they realize US security guarantees mean nothing. Or will be amended to look like a protection racket. This will lead to nuclear proliferation as it seems the only way to stop invading powers is to have nukes. The south Koreans have been advocating for nukes but the Biden administration said we got your back, no need for you to have your own nukes. Now that a USA security guarantee is worth shit, what do you do?
Either open the door for china, let them bully and pillage your resources, or Japan, south Korea, Australia etc will want and try to obtain their own nukes. Likely followed by every other country on earth.

And more nukes = more chance one gets free and finds it's way into some terrorist group.
No offense, I have been reading this same exact post for two years now. I think there is this perverse almost homicidal determination to want to encourage the Ukrainians to keep fighting without a clear end in sight.
 
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Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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No offense, I have been reading this same exact post for two years now. I think there is this perverse almost homicidal determination to want to encourage the Ukrainians to keep fighting without an end.
I Imagine many were saying the same to and about those damn uppity colonists in the Americas in 1775ish.....
 

WyattEarp

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May 17, 2017
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Finland's Alexander Stubb Takes Charge in Ukraine Crisis Ahead of Trump's Visit – EU Role in the War


Articulate in words, but I didn't know what he was saying about an EU commitment now or after a ceasefire.
What is your interpretation of this clip?
 
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WyattEarp

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I Imagine many were saying the same to and about those damn uppity colonists in the Americas in 1775ish.....
You mean those white supremacists? ;)

Anyway, history shows that fighting a war across an ocean in the late 1700s against a rebellious local population was a difficult proposition.
I also think we have all come across social media posts comparing the Ukraine to Russia's incursion into Afghanistan in the 1980s. I don't think that is a good comparison either particularly from a terrain perspective.
 

Frankfooter

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No offense, I have been reading this same exact post for two years now. I think there is this perverse almost homicidal determination to want to encourage the Ukrainians to keep fighting without a clear end in sight.
By 'clear end in sight' you mean letting Russia keep the land they are occupying now and could occupy in the future?
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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Zelensky knew the conditions and demands Trump had set beforehand.
So if he knew all that, then why did he fly all the way over to America just to say no to the deal??

Also, I just watched the entire debate this morning and Zelensky comes across as very abrasive.
Thats not the way to do diplomacy
Why would Zelensky sign a deal unless there were iron clad security guarantees? He probably came over to negotiate that guarantee. It's probably a good thing that he didn't sign because neither Trump, nor his boss Putin could ever be trusted (whatever happened to that free trade deal Trump signed with Canada and Mexico, anyway). Ukraine gave up the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world voluntarily at the end of the USSR under the Budapest accords guaranteed by the U.S., UK, Russia and EU, giving up several trillion of dollars of nuclear weapons in return for security guarantees for its territorial integrity which Russia has violated and the U.S., UK and EU vowed to protect. If Ukraine had kept its nuclear weapons, it would have been one of the most nuclear armed countries in the world and Russia would have never invaded. We, the West, committed to defend Ukraine in exchange for its denuclearization so there is no need for Ukraine to thank the U.S. for keeping its promises. Also, someone tell those White House clowns that Zelensky wears military fatigues in solidarity with his troops because they are at war with an invader (but why don't they complain about Musk's attire?).
 

Shaquille Oatmeal

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Jun 2, 2023
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No offense, I have been reading this same exact post for two years now. I think there is this perverse almost homicidal determination to want to encourage the Ukrainians to keep fighting without a clear end in sight.
We don't have to encourage them nor are we encouraging them.
They have free agency.
It is their country that is being invaded.
They are fighting because they want their country to be free.
 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
We don't have to encourage them nor are we encouraging them.
They have free agency.
It is their country that is being invaded.
They are fighting because they want their country to be free.
Salaries of Ukraine's civil servants have been funded by foreign aid
for a while. It seems very likely economic aid generously supplied by
the west has help sustaining administrative duties of government
workers such as keeping up with conscription of the young and not
so young into the army.

If Canada is fighting a war with the U.S. launched by Donald Trump China
and Russia wouldn't have to encourage us to fight to prolong the conflict. Sending
us billions of free money and free weapons will do the job.
 
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