Trump : Palestinians, please move out of GAZA. We (USA) will clean it up and make it the Riviera of the middle east. Then you can come back.

[Valcazar]

Its hard to understand because you are basically saying that you would now allow a complete and total genocide by Hitler because you hate what Hitler lite did.

This comes from a fundamental difference between you (and I) and Frank about what voting is.
You and I view it as selecting the government.
Frank (and others) view it as an expression of their moral preference.
In that framework, the result of the election is not a consequence of the voter's actions - a voter can only be judged by the expressiveness of their vote.

 

[Valcazar]

Because there is nothing called the greater good.

That's not true.
The lesser evil is, by definition, the greater good.

Butler has a different theory.
By not supporting the lesser evil, the greater evil will consistently win, and this is good.

 

[Valcazar]

Better yes.
Better is incremental steps composed of compromises. They are never perfect.

This is why Butler hates FDR and the New Deal so much.
A wildly compromised vision that was forced to constantly cut down its ambitions and compromise in order to get anything at all passed.
The very definition of "the lesser evil" in the eyes of all kinds of people who supported it.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

This comes from a fundamental difference between you (and I) and Frank about what voting is.
You and I view it as selecting the government.
Frank (and others) view it as an expression of their moral preference.
In that framework, the result of the election is not a consequence of the voter's actions - a voter can only be judged by the expressiveness of their vote.

Seems naive to me.
Especially if your goal is statehood.

 

[Valcazar]

Your prognostication on how this conflict will end does not matter.
The definition of greater good differs based on who you ask.

Can't allow nuance like that.

It's very simple.
Create a crisis, and then move in post crisis and everything is better.

The French Revolution toppled the aristocracy and created an Empire.
The Terror, the Empire, the Napoleonic wars, was a small price to pay for the fall of the Ancien Regime.
Or, to put it more succinctly, the Terror was the lesser evil choice.

 

[shack]

Great discussion guys. And so civil.

 

[Klatuu]

If they wanted statehood they would’ve had statehood. What they want is destruction of Israel.

Moldy Ziontology script

 

[Valcazar]

But if protesting and having a moral standing is more important than an ethnic cleansing, then sure.

Yes, you've got it.
The moral standing is always more important than the result.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

Shaq got multiple straight answers, like you, he won't accept them.
He has a narrative and he's sticking with it.

I don't have a narrative.
My view is that pro-Palestinians and Muslims who voted for Trump, made the wrong choice.
Trump is not on their side and I think that much is clear.
Harris was more on their side than Trump will ever be.

 

[Klatuu]

Why do you blame voters instead of Biden and Harris?

‘It’s a Democrat specialty. Voters are at fault. Or the other guy is worse….you know, the democrat bleat that the sky is falling without them.

The fact is that Genocide Joe and Holocaust Harris are not Hitler lite…..they are Hitler. It’s Trump that’s currently Hitler lite….he didn’t carry an apocalyptic genocide. The Dems did. Own it for once. Whatever odious thoughts Trump has, it is was completely enabled by the deliberate war crimes the Democrat’s participated in that was alway intended to lead us to the point ethnic cleansing was seen as a solution. Trump is just ham handed about the execution of the cleansing. Genocide Joe would have just wrung his hands in public and facilitated it in private.

 

[Leimonis]

Yes, you've got it.
The moral standing is always more important than the result.

And those who believe it typically don’t live well, whether they are individuals or groups

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

‘It’s a Democrat specialty. Voters are at fault. Or the other guy is worse….you know, the democrat bleat that the sky is falling without them.

The fact is that Genocide Joe and Holocaust Harris are not Hitler lite…..they are Hitler. It’s Trump that’s currently Hitler lite….he didn’t carry an apocalyptic genocide. The Dems did. Own it for once. Whatever odious thoughts Trump has, it is was completely enabled by the deliberate war crimes the Democrat’s participated in that was alway intended to lead us to the point ethnic cleansing was seen as a solution. Trump is just ham handed about the execution of the cleansing. Genocide Joe would have just wrung his hands in public and facilitated it in private.

If you feel Trump is the better choice, then as I said you'd have to make peace with it when he follows through on his words.
Maybe Palestinians and Israelis can finally find common ground, because Netanyahu seems to love Trump too.
That should work out great for the Palestinian side I am guessing?

 

[Valcazar]

I like your answer except to ask what does not voting accomplish?

It keeps you morally pure.

But voting can be a very personal thing. Mine is always to be earned. So that was my motivation.

BTW, I'd never heard that about Harris. Is this a widely accepted story?

In certain circles of social media, yes.

 

[mandrill]

That's not true.
The lesser evil is, by definition, the greater good.

Butler has a different theory.
By not supporting the lesser evil, the greater evil will consistently win, and this is good.

But because the greater evil is the product of right wing populist demagoguery, it is still a valid expression of the wronged people's anger.

So it is simultaneously the greater evil and the lesser good.

 

[Valcazar]

Seems naive to me.
Especially if your goal is statehood.

I do find it naive, but to be fair to them, it is a view taken by many people and the one that fits the propaganda of "why democracy is good".
Of course, there are voting systems that allow for a much more expressive ballot and ones where honestly expressed preferences on your ballot aren't counter productive to getting a result you want (or both).
In such a system, the two views wouldn't be in any significant conflict.
First past the post isn't one of these systems.

 

[Klatuu]

If you feel Trump is the better choice, then as I said you'd have to make peace with it when he follows through on his words.
Maybe Palestinians and Israelis can finally find common ground, because Netanyahu seems to love Trump too.
That should work out great for the Palestinian side I am guessing?

You have real trouble holding Genocide Joe and Holocaust Harris responsible for what they have wrought. Own it. At least 60,000 Palestinians had to own it with their lives. The least you can do is own it in comfort of your home.

If Democrats were really concerned about getting the votes needed to win to save us from Trump, they would not have participated in an apocalyptic genocide. Isn’t that you how get votes? By representing the interests of those who votes you want.

 

[Valcazar]

If you feel Trump is the better choice, then as I said you'd have to make peace with it when he follows through on his words.
Maybe Palestinians and Israelis can finally find common ground, because Netanyahu seems to love Trump too.
That should work out great for the Palestinian side I am guessing?

I think Klaatu was clear that he considers Trump the better choice.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

You have real trouble holding Genocide Joe and Holocaust Harris responsible for what they have wrought. Own it. At least 60,000 Palestinians had to own it with their lives. The least you can do is own it in comfort of your home.

If Democrats were really concerned about getting the votes needed to win to save us from Trump, they would not have participated in an apocalyptic genocide. Isn’t that you get votes? By representing the interests of those who votes you want.

Which is why I asked you earlier what you'd have expected the US to do after October 7.
And if there was any attack in the past that equaled or exceeded the October 7 attack in magnitude.
You are holding on to an oversimplified narrative and your expectations of what the US should have done seems naive.
So Hamas attacks and kills 1200 Israelis, Israel responds and you'd have expected the US, an extremely close ally of Israel to pull support for Israel and ask them to stand down?
Trump had the benefit of coming to power when Biden negotiated the ceasefire.
But you'd still hold him above Biden, even with his history of signing EOs to ban Muslim entry into the US, advocate for creating Muslim registries, and his calls for ethnic cleansing in peace time?
Is there any doubt that, not 45000, but perhaps 90000 could have died if Trump was in power on October 7, followed by an ethnic cleansing?

 

[Klatuu]

I think Klaatu was clear that he considers Trump the better choice.

That’s called the False Dilemma Fallacy.

 

[Klatuu]

Which is why I asked you earlier what you'd have expected the US to do after October 7.
And if there was any attack in the past that equaled or exceeded the October 7 attack in magnitude.
You are holding on to an oversimplified narrative and your expectations of what the US should have done seems naive.
So Hamas attacks and kills 1200 Israelis, Israel responds and you'd have expected the US, an extremely close ally of Israel to pull support for Israel and ask them to stand down?
Trump had the benefit of coming to power when Biden negotiated the ceasefire.
But you'd still hold him above Biden, even with his history of signing EOs to ban Muslim entry into the US, advocate for creating Muslim registries, and his calls for ethnic cleansing in peace time?
Is there any doubt that, not 45000, but perhaps 90000 could have died if Trump was in power on October 7, followed by an ethnic cleansing?

You don’t know much about Middle East history. If you did, your post would embarrass you.