The Great Debate

Who won the great debate?

  • Harris

    Votes: 77 78.6%
  • Trump

    Votes: 9 9.2%
  • Both were bad with no winner

    Votes: 10 10.2%
  • Both were good with no winner

    Votes: 2 2.0%

  • Total voters
    98
Their discussion did trigger my brain to focus on why the handwringing over Chinese tariffs is just that and not this big attack on the American consumer. Trump's proposing tariffs on one, single adversarial country.
Huh? Trumps proposed tariffs are 10% on ALL foreign countries and 60% from China. The current Biden tariffs are narrowly targeted to key industries related to US manufacturing of clean energy and stuff like chips so we don't have to rely on China or Taiwan to supply the most advanced military's electronics etc.
 

dirtydaveiii

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Mar 21, 2018
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You're kidding right?

Pandemic had nothing to do with it and happened in his last year in office.

The US pulled out of Afghanistan in 2021. Biden was in office 6 months when that happened and 13 soldiers were killed during the withdrawal alone. That's about how many were killed each year in Afghanistan during Trump's term.

Do you want a real interesting tidbit? Total US soldiers killed during Trump's term in Afghanistan was about 70. During Obama's last 4 years in office: 500+

Care to twist yourself into more a pretzel?
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Argument
An expert's point of view on a current event.
Calling Trump an Anti-Imperialist Is Nonsense
The anti-war left shouldn’t fall for this dishonest pitch.
By Matthew Duss, the executive vice president at the Center for International Policy.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at a 2023 forum in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at a 2023 forum in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at the 2023 NRA-ILA Leadership Forum on April 14, in Indianapolis, Indiana. Scott Olson/Getty Images
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April 18, 2023, 1:02 PM
View Comments (2)
There’s a song on the Lemonheads’ underrated 1996 album Car Button Cloth that I love for very personal reasons. “The Outdoor Type” is a jangly pop tune in which the narrator admits that he had earlier misled his partner about his true interests:

I can’t go away with you on a rock-climbing weekend;

What if something’s on TV and it’s never shown again;

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It’s just as well I’m not invited, I’m afraid of heights;

I lied about being the outdoor type.

I love this because I also misrepresented my enthusiasm for rock climbing to someone I very much wanted to spend more time with. And I was thinking about the lies we tell people we’re trying to lay because of the spate of recent articles trying to convince us that former U.S. President Donald Trump is an anti-imperialist.

Sen. J.D. Vance claimed in January that the most important part of Trump’s legacy is his foreign policy. “My entire adult lifetime has been shaped by presidents who threw America into unwise wars and failed to win them,” Vance wrote in a Wall Street Journal op-ed. “In Mr. Trump’s four years in office, he started no wars despite enormous pressure from his own party and even members of his own administration.”

Trump “has done more to restrain the US imperium than any politician in 75 years,” Christian Parenti wrote in Compact recently. This, Parenti claimed, is the real cause of his prosecution by the Manhattan district attorney. “Trump has been investigated, impeached, and indicted not because of the crimes of which he is accused,” wrote Parenti, “but because he has dared to oppose the imperial foreign policy favored by elites.”

Sohrab Ahmari, a former neoconservative now aligned with the Trumpist right, and one of the founders of Compact, followed up with a piece hailing Trump as “the one figure who in my lifetime has meaningfully rolled back the self-righteous imperium” scolding the anti-war left for not embracing Trump as its true hero. “The left suddenly turns ultra-principled when it comes to judging Trump’s record as an anti-imperial president: He wasn’t a total pacifist! He talked about ‘taking their oil.’ What about Yemen? Come on.”

These pieces foretell a larger effort to seduce the anti-war left with the idea that Trump, despite all evidence to the contrary, is an attractive partner for the project of reining in the American empire—that he really is the Outdoor Type. (Although for Vance, who went from outspoken Trump critic to cravenly falling in line when his political ambition required it, a better tune might be Stephen Stills’s “Love the One You’re With.”)

These pieces all rest heavily on the claim that Trump launched no new wars. That’s true as far as it goes. But it was certainly not for lack of trying. Trump might not have started any wars, but he massively inflamed existing ones—and came close to catastrophic new ones.

Let’s review the record. Despite inveighing against “endless wars,” Trump massively escalated the country’s existing wars in multiple theaters, leading to skyrocketing casualties. In Afghanistan, he substantially upped the amount of airstrikes, leading to a 330 percent increase in civilian deaths. In Yemen, he escalated both U.S. counterterrorism activities and support for the devastating Saudi-led war against the Houthis. According to the United Kingdom’s Bureau of Investigative Journalism, there were 2,243 drone strikes in just the first two years of Trump’s presidency, compared with 1,878 in the entire eight years of the Obama administration.
 
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dirtydaveiii

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Argument
An expert's point of view on a current event.
Calling Trump an Anti-Imperialist Is Nonsense
The anti-war left shouldn’t fall for this dishonest pitch.
By Matthew Duss, the executive vice president at the Center for International Policy.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at a 2023 forum in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at a 2023 forum in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at the 2023 NRA-ILA Leadership Forum on April 14, in Indianapolis, Indiana. Scott Olson/Getty Images
My FP: Follow topics and authors to get straight to what you like. Exclusively for FP subscribers. Subscribe Now | Log In

April 18, 2023, 1:02 PM
View Comments (2)
There’s a song on the Lemonheads’ underrated 1996 album Car Button Cloth that I love for very personal reasons. “The Outdoor Type” is a jangly pop tune in which the narrator admits that he had earlier misled his partner about his true interests:

I can’t go away with you on a rock-climbing weekend;

What if something’s on TV and it’s never shown again;

Trending Articles

Canadian Defense Minister Bill Blair on Canada's relationship with India
World leaders congregated in Washington last week to mark the 75th anniversary of NATO, the world’s largest security…
Powered By Trackerdslogo
It’s just as well I’m not invited, I’m afraid of heights;

I lied about being the outdoor type.

I love this because I also misrepresented my enthusiasm for rock climbing to someone I very much wanted to spend more time with. And I was thinking about the lies we tell people we’re trying to lay because of the spate of recent articles trying to convince us that former U.S. President Donald Trump is an anti-imperialist.

Sen. J.D. Vance claimed in January that the most important part of Trump’s legacy is his foreign policy. “My entire adult lifetime has been shaped by presidents who threw America into unwise wars and failed to win them,” Vance wrote in a Wall Street Journal op-ed. “In Mr. Trump’s four years in office, he started no wars despite enormous pressure from his own party and even members of his own administration.”

Trump “has done more to restrain the US imperium than any politician in 75 years,” Christian Parenti wrote in Compact recently. This, Parenti claimed, is the real cause of his prosecution by the Manhattan district attorney. “Trump has been investigated, impeached, and indicted not because of the crimes of which he is accused,” wrote Parenti, “but because he has dared to oppose the imperial foreign policy favored by elites.”

Sohrab Ahmari, a former neoconservative now aligned with the Trumpist right, and one of the founders of Compact, followed up with a piece hailing Trump as “the one figure who in my lifetime has meaningfully rolled back the self-righteous imperium” scolding the anti-war left for not embracing Trump as its true hero. “The left suddenly turns ultra-principled when it comes to judging Trump’s record as an anti-imperial president: He wasn’t a total pacifist! He talked about ‘taking their oil.’ What about Yemen? Come on.”

These pieces foretell a larger effort to seduce the anti-war left with the idea that Trump, despite all evidence to the contrary, is an attractive partner for the project of reining in the American empire—that he really is the Outdoor Type. (Although for Vance, who went from outspoken Trump critic to cravenly falling in line when his political ambition required it, a better tune might be Stephen Stills’s “Love the One You’re With.”)

These pieces all rest heavily on the claim that Trump launched no new wars. That’s true as far as it goes. But it was certainly not for lack of trying. Trump might not have started any wars, but he massively inflamed existing ones—and came close to catastrophic new ones.

Let’s review the record. Despite inveighing against “endless wars,” Trump massively escalated the country’s existing wars in multiple theaters, leading to skyrocketing casualties. In Afghanistan, he substantially upped the amount of airstrikes, leading to a 330 percent increase in civilian deaths. In Yemen, he escalated both U.S. counterterrorism activities and support for the devastating Saudi-led war against the Houthis. According to the United Kingdom’s Bureau of Investigative Journalism, there were 2,243 drone strikes in just the first two years of Trump’s presidency, compared with 1,878 in the entire eight years of the Obama administration.
Share

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Argument
An expert's point of view on a current event.
Calling Trump an Anti-Imperialist Is Nonsense
The anti-war left shouldn’t fall for this dishonest pitch.
By Matthew Duss, the executive vice president at the Center for International Policy.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at a 2023 forum in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at a 2023 forum in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Former U.S. President Donald Trump speaks to guests at the 2023 NRA-ILA Leadership Forum on April 14, in Indianapolis, Indiana. Scott Olson/Getty Images
My FP: Follow topics and authors to get straight to what you like. Exclusively for FP subscribers. Subscribe Now | Log In

April 18, 2023, 1:02 PM
View Comments (2)
There’s a song on the Lemonheads’ underrated 1996 album Car Button Cloth that I love for very personal reasons. “The Outdoor Type” is a jangly pop tune in which the narrator admits that he had earlier misled his partner about his true interests:

I can’t go away with you on a rock-climbing weekend;

What if something’s on TV and it’s never shown again;

Trending Articles

Canadian Defense Minister Bill Blair on Canada's relationship with India
World leaders congregated in Washington last week to mark the 75th anniversary of NATO, the world’s largest security…
Powered By Trackerdslogo
It’s just as well I’m not invited, I’m afraid of heights;

I lied about being the outdoor type.

I love this because I also misrepresented my enthusiasm for rock climbing to someone I very much wanted to spend more time with. And I was thinking about the lies we tell people we’re trying to lay because of the spate of recent articles trying to convince us that former U.S. President Donald Trump is an anti-imperialist.

Sen. J.D. Vance claimed in January that the most important part of Trump’s legacy is his foreign policy. “My entire adult lifetime has been shaped by presidents who threw America into unwise wars and failed to win them,” Vance wrote in a Wall Street Journal op-ed. “In Mr. Trump’s four years in office, he started no wars despite enormous pressure from his own party and even members of his own administration.”

Trump “has done more to restrain the US imperium than any politician in 75 years,” Christian Parenti wrote in Compact recently. This, Parenti claimed, is the real cause of his prosecution by the Manhattan district attorney. “Trump has been investigated, impeached, and indicted not because of the crimes of which he is accused,” wrote Parenti, “but because he has dared to oppose the imperial foreign policy favored by elites.”

Sohrab Ahmari, a former neoconservative now aligned with the Trumpist right, and one of the founders of Compact, followed up with a piece hailing Trump as “the one figure who in my lifetime has meaningfully rolled back the self-righteous imperium” scolding the anti-war left for not embracing Trump as its true hero. “The left suddenly turns ultra-principled when it comes to judging Trump’s record as an anti-imperial president: He wasn’t a total pacifist! He talked about ‘taking their oil.’ What about Yemen? Come on.”

These pieces foretell a larger effort to seduce the anti-war left with the idea that Trump, despite all evidence to the contrary, is an attractive partner for the project of reining in the American empire—that he really is the Outdoor Type. (Although for Vance, who went from outspoken Trump critic to cravenly falling in line when his political ambition required it, a better tune might be Stephen Stills’s “Love the One You’re With.”)

These pieces all rest heavily on the claim that Trump launched no new wars. That’s true as far as it goes. But it was certainly not for lack of trying. Trump might not have started any wars, but he massively inflamed existing ones—and came close to catastrophic new ones.

Let’s review the record. Despite inveighing against “endless wars,” Trump massively escalated the country’s existing wars in multiple theaters, leading to skyrocketing casualties. In Afghanistan, he substantially upped the amount of airstrikes, leading to a 330 percent increase in civilian deaths. In Yemen, he escalated both U.S. counterterrorism activities and support for the devastating Saudi-led war against the Houthis. According to the United Kingdom’s Bureau of Investigative Journalism, there were 2,243 drone strikes in just the first two years of Trump’s presidency, compared with 1,878 in the entire eight years of the Obama administration.
Wow, you are rewriting history with Ritchies version. You are really losing your mind in that hole eh?? Ukraine asked to join NATO as ANY COUNTRY has the right to do and US said NO because of Crimea being at odds and issues with Russia but hey, you make up your bullshit to fit your silly narrative .

Trump was pissed at Zelensky because Zelensky wouldn't help him cheat to win his election. Unlike Russia which released Clinton's emails to help your cult leader.

Dude, read a book man.



It was a Republican president called George Bush after the September 11 attack or was that fake too? Admit it, you know jack shit and Jack is still laughing at your posts.
I love it how he takes trunps lies and exaggerates them even more to trillions. What a tool.
 
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kherg007

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I believe Trump was convicted. Same with every one around him. Durham could only get one mild thing and spent more years and $ than Mueller who got dozens of indictments and convictions too.
 

squeezer

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Jan 8, 2010
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I've always like Al Franken and if you are in Springfield you better keep all of your ducks in a row

Is this the same thing as when the E. Indian fella here was accused of shitting in the open by the pumps that were proven to be nonsense? Why do the righties always love to jump on nonsensical stories?

I'm glad Maher held Franken's feet to the fire on the Biden tariffs.

Their discussion did trigger my brain to focus on why the handwringing over Chinese tariffs is just that and not this big attack on the American consumer. Trump's proposing tariffs on one, single adversarial country. Historically, when tariffs have been discussed they are applied across the board on certain products regardless of origin. I have said something like this in more general terms. In the event more tariffs are applied to Chinese imports, Vietnam, India, Mexico and whoever can step in and provide these products more competitively.

As far as everything else Franken said, I think it's clear as smart as he is he's still playing hard for the Democratic team.

Maher: Let's not play team sports. Let's play truth.
You miss my point. Trump is claiming the tariffs will bring billions and billions of tax revenue from China. Enough tax revenue to pay for his no taxing tips, no taxing OT and no taxing pensions. This is all a lie and that is my point. The tariffs only raise the price of products and are used only to help American companies who cannot compete with some countries on pricing.

PS- Kristen Soltis Anderson is so hot. She and other women like her might be one of the reasons I sometimes miss drowning myself in cable news bullshit.
Yeah, I'd happily do her so I will agree with you on Kristen.
 
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Frankfooter

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You miss my point. Trump is claiming the tariffs will bring billions and billions of tax revenue from China. Enough tax revenue to pay for his no taxing tips, no taxing OT and no taxing pensions. This is all a lie and that is my point. The tariffs only raise the price of products and are used only to help American companies who cannot compete with some countries on pricing.
Its rump arguing that adding 60% tariffs to Chinese imports won't cost consumers that is the real idiocy. Yet they still believe it.
Almost as stupid as this.

 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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NEWS The Ohio Division of Wildlife tells TMZ that the Black man holding geese in the photo that went viral was actually picking up the geese after they were hit in a car accident. As previously reported, the incident didn’t even occur in Springfield, Ohio; it took place in Columbus, and there’s no evidence that the man is Haitian or an immigrant. Full Story: https://bit.ly/3B2MF5b

GXaEZYYbwAMeOSG.jpg
 

dirtydaveiii

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Mar 21, 2018
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I believe Trump was convicted. Same with every one around him. Durham could only get one mild thing and spent more years and $ than Mueller who got dozens of indictments and convictions too.
Didn't Durham solve the crime of the century according to lying Donald?
 
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squeezer

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I've always like Al Franken and if you are in Springfield you better keep all of your ducks in a row

Here is where your nonsensical conspiracy theory originated from



NEWS The Ohio Division of Wildlife tells TMZ that the Black man holding geese in the photo that went viral was actually picking up the geese after they were hit in a car accident. As previously reported, the incident didn’t even occur in Springfield, Ohio; it took place in Columbus, and there’s no evidence that the man is Haitian or an immigrant. Full Story: https://bit.ly/3B2MF5b

View attachment 359234
 
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WyattEarp

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Huh? Trumps proposed tariffs are 10% on ALL foreign countries and 60% from China. The current Biden tariffs are narrowly targeted to key industries related to US manufacturing of clean energy and stuff like chips so we don't have to rely on China or Taiwan to supply the most advanced military's electronics etc.
I stand corrected. I do not support tariffs across the board. However, China is fair game.

I was focused on the big proposed tariff with China. Mexico is currently benefiting from a manufacturing away shift away from China. Mexico is a bit complicated to discuss. They are in the U.S.-Mexico-Canada agreement which should insulate them from tariffs. Trump is known to be aggressive on trade. Mexico has a leftist government that is dangerously flirting with breaking terms of the agreement.

The U.S. incidentally also has free trade agreements with twenty countries. I wouldn't start to dissect Trump's words to presume these agreements would necessarily be blown up.
 
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mitchell76

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JUST IN: Illegal immigrant arrested for m*rder after a family of four was found dead in their burning home in Irondequoit, N.Y. Julio Cesar Pimentel Soriano, who was wanted in the Dominican Republic for m*rder in 2019, was arrested. Two toddlers and parents Fraime Ubaldo and Marangely Moreno-Santiago were allegedly k*lled by the illegal immigrant. "This was a horrific scene. In almost 32 years of doing this job, I have never seen anything like it," said Irondequoit Police Chief Scott Peters. "This is Labor Day. It's supposed to be a joyous day spending time with your family. This family doesn't have that anymore. Half of this family is gone in an instant."
 
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