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Stacy Clarke...should be fired...

Frankfooter

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It's a race issue because you are making it one in an effort to make excuses for misconduct. Just like her lawyers are.
Otherwise we have a cop who cheated and has admitted to 7 counts of misconduct.
That cop is protected by a union and that's the only reason she is not being fired.

The fact that she's a black woman in a high ranking position, promoted by a black chief, goes against the narrative you are trying to peddle.

She should be fired.
This is all about race, skoob.
It fits your pattern of posting.

Even now you refuse to acknowledge that Clarke noted systematic racism issues in the TPS, such as the 1.7% promotion rate for black cops.
 
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Skoob

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And that narrative is tokenism. It is a documented statistic that only 1.7% get promoted. It is documented that there is systemic bias in the TPS along with nepotism and favouritism that TPS themselves admit. So no, she is not wrong and the context she explains is very much relevant and is the larger issue that needs focus. As such a demotion which even the prosecution felt appropriate in this case is sufficient.

How many black chiefs of police have existed in Toronto in all these years compared to the number of black police officers serving? There in lies your answer. Using the one or two people is tokenism.
Cheating is cheating.
Excuses after the fact are just that.

It's amazing to me that you and FF are bending yourselves in more ways than the Kuma Sutra to try and excuse this person and make it into a race issue. It's not.

If you believe she was guilty (which she was), then leaving someone in the police force who is a known cheater to get preferred candidates promoted is ridiculous. She can't be trusted.
She should be fired.
 

Frankfooter

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Cheating is cheating.
Excuses after the fact are just that.

It's amazing to me that you and FF are bending yourselves in more ways than the Kuma Sutra to try and excuse this person and make it into a race issue. It's not.

If you believe she was guilty (which she was), then leaving someone in the police force who is a known cheater to get preferred candidates promoted is ridiculous. She can't be trusted.
She should be fired.
You excuse cheating continually by DoFo and rump.
This makes it very clear this is about race, skoob.
 

Skoob

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This is all about race, skoob.
It fits your pattern of posting.

Even now you refuse to acknowledge that Clarke noted systematic racism issues in the TPS, such as the 1.7% promotion rate for black cops.
"Pattern of posting?" What are you some kind of posting profiler? The only pattern I'm aware of is making you look bad.

What you fail or refuse to acknowledge is that regardless of whatever excuses she used for justifying what she did, it was a serious breach of trust for someone in her high-ranking position.
If she was not in a union, she would be fired instantly.

She should be fired.


Prosecutor Scott Hutchison called Clarke's conduct "profoundly serious," and asked McElary-Downer to imagine what would have happened if no one had discovered what was going on.
"We would have six new sergeants who had been led to believe that the way you advance in the Toronto police service is to cheat," he said.
 

Skoob

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Stacy Clarke said this is a systemic racism issue. It is not mine or FF's doing. This entire discussion is about systemic racism forcing someone to act in desperation. So the cheating is because of systemic racism. So while the cheating is punished via demotion the systemic racism also needs to be addressed. Given this reality and context, a demotion is sufficient.
TPS has gone through a lot of effort over the past years to ensure fairness.
We don't want high ranking officers "acting in desperation" if that was the case at all.


Prosecutor Scott Hutchison called Clarke's conduct "profoundly serious," and asked McElary-Downer to imagine what would have happened if no one had discovered what was going on.
"We would have six new sergeants who had been led to believe that the way you advance in the Toronto police service is to cheat," he said.

She should be fired.
 

Frankfooter

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"Pattern of posting?" What are you some kind of posting profiler? The only pattern I'm aware of is making you look bad.

What you fail or refuse to acknowledge is that regardless of whatever excuses she used for justifying what she did, it was a serious breach of trust for someone in her high-ranking position.
If she was not in a union, she would be fired instantly.

She should be fired.


Prosecutor Scott Hutchison called Clarke's conduct "profoundly serious," and asked McElary-Downer to imagine what would have happened if no one had discovered what was going on.
"We would have six new sergeants who had been led to believe that the way you advance in the Toronto police service is to cheat," he said.
So cheating is a firing offence regardless of race?
 

SchlongConery

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May be. But it seems to not be enough and it seems that these issues persist. And no one is saying that Stacy Clark's conduct is misconduct. But as the prosecution itself has requested - even the TPS feels a demotion is enough.

Why bother even engaging with you and Frank if you stubbornly refuse to believe the 7 misconduct charges she plead guilt to when, after 135 messages you still make factually untrue assertions.

Are you slow, stubborn or intellectually dishonest? Or just so invested in your narrative and defending it that you still repeat your quoted misrepresentation, if not outright lies?

If you don't beleive ME or skoob and insist on repeating a objectively factual lie that "no one is saying that Stacy Clark's conduct is misconduct" ... would you accept the charging documents and Stacy Clark's own statement and apology for her "misconduct".?


I have the


You don't know how the TPS or The Police Act, nor how either operates except from reading headlines dashed off by editors to attract attention to reporters who were writing stories on raccoons and garbage bins the day before and and an airplane crash involving a celebrity the next day, along with personal interest stories about citizens being upset over shrinkflation.

Yet you forcibly opine on these matters that you have no knowledge of. If I may say so, you bring such racial prejudice to the discussion of fundamental integrity of the police force leadership that you would seemingly excuse anything in pursuit of any means to an end that you think is just and doable. There is a big reason why thre are not too many black or POC in policing in Canada. You know what it is, especially amongst black people? Fundamental mistrust of the police. And despite many, many thousands of fine TPS officers serving the best they can, there is a deep lack of respect for the integrity of senior command and management.

The rot starts at the top and the bottom.



Toronto cop apologizes for misconduct at disciplinary hearing
CBC. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-superintendent-stacy-clarke-defence-1.7198214

May 8, 2024

"A high-ranking Toronto police officer apologized at a disciplinary hearing on Wednesday for misconduct that occurred when she provided confidential information to six Black constables ahead of promotional job interviews in 2021.

In September 2023, Clarke pleaded guilty to seven charges under the Police Services Act. The charges include three counts of breach of confidence, three counts of discreditable conduct and one count of insubordination. (MY NOTE: Insubordination means that a senior Officer above her that she reports to, told her to, or not to do something... and she did it anyways. )

According to court documents, Clarke "is facing misconduct allegations for sharing interview questions with candidates who had become eligible for promotion."

She said the force can "absolutely" be assured that the misconduct will not happen again."
 

SchlongConery

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So cheating is a firing offence regardless of race?

Yes, cheating aka "breaking the law" as a sworn police officer should result in their termination. Everyone has a price. In this case, this Senior Police Officer and her six co-conspirators felt that promotions were worth being dishonest.

Let me ask. you this question.

If one of the promotional interview questions was "Do you believe or would you knowingly enter into a conspiracy to break the law in furtherance of career advancement or even a noble purpose?" what do you think an appropriate answer should be?

Next question: "Would you consider planting evidence, misrepresenting or otherwise 'cheat the system' about what you know to be a criminal you caught in the act to protect or advance the career of a fellow officer?"
 
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SchlongConery

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Firstly, I made a grammatical error in my sentence there. I should have said "No one is arguing that Stacy Clarke's conduct ISN'T misconduct". But if you read the rest of my posts, it should have been abundantly clear that I do accept and do call it misconduct in multiple other posts. Fixed that now.
Pretty big error. 🤷‍♂️ I can't keep up with your changing stories so I'll take you at your word.


But I dont need any working knowledge of the TPS. I can go off what is available out there in public, that Stacy Clarke herself has said in this case, and what news outlets have already published.
Well then we could also solve the housing crisis with the money we save on courtrooms, judges, prosecutors. We have the "news outlets"!

You are being deliberately ignorant of both the reality and reliability of the reporters. I will tell you this from personal experience. In every instance where I have been in, or had direct knowledge of something reported or otheriwse published, there have been materially significant inaccuracies published. Some change the entire context of the incident or issue being reported on. From traffic, to beig a witness to a criminal act, to me or my clients being interviewed by friendly media.

And YES you do need working knowledge of TPS and how each level of policing agencies work to have any meaningful insight. There is a BIGGER crisis in the TPS than reported racial bias. It is a lack of trust in police by the public. And a lack of respect for the leadership. Sure, the boys will salute, yes sir three bags full sir! But they go to work. They do not go because they are inspired by leadership.



Is it not true that she said that there is systemic bias in the TPS? Is it not true that she said she felt invisible and in her desperation did something unethical?

So why are you accusing ME of injecting racial prejudice into the discussion, as if I made something up, when I am merely repeating what the accused herself has brought to light and is pretty much in every article cited?
She is but one voice. And that is her opinion and her excuse for being caught red handed cheating. Spend a day in a Toronto criminal courtroom where pleas are accepted. Listen to the bullshit the criminals whimper about why they did this and that and how sorry they are... just to get a reduced sentence. Then they go right back out and do it again. Isn't that "revolving door" one of the biggest complaints the public has when they say they have lost faith in the justice system.

Look, I think you are generally a man of integrity. I imagine there is NOTHING anyone could do to make you rob a bank, deal drugs, carry an illegal handgun or enter into a conspiracy at YOUR workplace to help anyone get promoted by falsifying records etc. It's just not in you.

And I know/knew several (retired) Senior and rank and file Police officers who are so clean as a whistle that they would never do such a thing. It is not in them.

When someone has it within them to deliberately, with forethought, to cheat... that speaks to their character. If she was so principled she should have used her influence to keep that or other policies on the front burner. Not sully the reputation of herself and the six officers SHE thought were not capable of being promoted on their own merits and skills.

I read one of your earlier posts where you opined that if she had to help black police officers, may be it was because they weren't good enough in the first place.
Fuck off. That is an outright lie. You are deliberately twisting what I said or are just so twisted up in your own logical fallacies that. you don't know what anyone said.

I said that SHE may have thought that these six officers may not have passed the promotion exams so therefore SHE had a low enough of an opinion of them that SHE felt the need to cheat.



But that is what systemic racism IS. That even if you are good enough, you will be passed over citing one reason or another that you cannot technically find fault with, but being a POC, you have seen enough of a pattern throughout your life that you just know what it is. Heck, I have been on the receiving end of this multiple times. In my case I could just quit and move to another organization (which I have done before), but where will a police officer quit and move to? They'd get stuck.

That is the desperation she says she felt. And that context is not just important to note, but it is important to scrutinize and fix. Why else will an otherwise honourable police officer, with no other allegations or history of misconduct, suddenly break bad?

Systemic failure to promote Black officers under microscope as superintendent apologizes for helping racialized police cheat

“Maybe ask the chief and the service to do a little bit more to look into this and to decide if there’s something wrong,” Tory said at the time, pointing to statistics that of a pool of 58 Black applicants, 13.7 per cent were interviewed, and 1.7 per cent were hired.

You only know what is reported in 500 words of sensationalized "news". You don't know what goes on in the hours and hours of discussions and it is a known practice to cherry pick whatever quotes to fit the writer or editor's narrative.

You may not know it, but you are grossly under, and misinformed. And being stubbornly ignorant.

But in one way you are correct. You don't have to know the inner workings of TPS, YRP, Peel, Durham, OPP, RCMP, CSIS etc to know what is right and wrong and what comes first.

Integrity of the criminal justice system, especially the trustworthiness and integrity of sworn peace officers, comes before well intentioned (and needed) social/racial justice in hiring. You think that millions more houses can be built than every expert does just by wishful thinking. Despite the objective issues that don't make it possible. And you think that a few white lies to promote black cops is an acceptable form of police corruption. Because that is what it is, corruption. Where do we allow the police to draw the line?
 
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Frankfooter

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Yes, cheating aka "breaking the law" as a sworn police officer should result in their termination. Everyone has a price. In this case, this Senior Police Officer and her six co-conspirators felt that promotions were worth being dishonest.

Let me ask. you this question.

If one of the promotional interview questions was "Do you believe or would you knowingly enter into a conspiracy to break the law in furtherance of career advancement or even a noble purpose?" what do you think an appropriate answer should be?

Next question: "Would you consider planting evidence, misrepresenting or otherwise 'cheat the system' about what you know to be a criminal you caught in the act to protect or advance the career of a fellow officer?"
'Breaking the law' is not what we are talking about here, schlong, that's you trying to mischaracterize the issue.

The reports say that it was common for other cops to sneak the questions to potential hires and that was used as part of the systemic bias that resulted in only 1.7% of black cops getting promotions. Clarke had worked to change this policy and the board had approved giving the questions to all applicants but this policy was cancelled by someone in the department. Its quite possible that Clarke thought the 7 cops she passed the questions to were cops she honestly thought were good cops and should get promotions and she broke policy to get people she thought were good cops promoted.

There was no law broken, to suggest so is hyperbole.

She should be disciplined for breaking policy, not fired. The policy should be changed, other cops who have passed the questions on should be investigated so it doesn't like like she is being targeted because she is black and the TPS needs to fix its own issues to rectify only promoting 1.7% of black cops.
 
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Skoob

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So cheating is a firing offence regardless of race?
Wow you still support media outlets that willfully employ homophobes?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

https://crier.co/personality/dean-blundell/
 
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Frankfooter

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Wow you still support media outlets that willfully employ homophobes?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

https://crier.co/personality/dean-blundell/
As a right winger who has posted against LGBTQ issues repeatedly, I really don't care what your views are or what your claims are on this subject.
Its like getting accused of racism by people backing apartheid and genocide.

What is clear is that your claim you are against cheating is entirely based on race and politics.
 
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Skoob

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As a right winger who has posted against LGBTQ issues repeatedly, I really don't care what your views are or what your claims are on this subject.
Its like getting accused of racism by people backing apartheid and genocide.

What is clear is that your claim you are against cheating is entirely based on race and politics.
It's like you're trying to fool people into believing you're a "tolerant liberal" and then use homophobic sources as your moral compass.

You did this. Only you. Don't try and distract to other people just because you were caught...again.
 

SchlongConery

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'Breaking the law' is not what we are talking about here, schlong, that's you trying to mischaracterize the issue.

There was no law broken, to suggest so is hyperbole.

Uhhhhhmmmmmm. the Police Services Act RSO 1990 is a law. It is not a policy, nor a guideline. It is Law. Well it was the law until April 1st of this year when it was repealed and replaced.

She committed at least 7 offences under that LAW. She pled guilty to breaking them. She did not dispute the factuality.

There has never, and will never be a policy enacted that allows "cops to sneak the questions" to a test. Are you saying that cheating on tests, like lying in Affadavits to get search warrants, to commit perjury on the witness stand etc... should be commonly accepted police practice?

I think what you are saying is that she had a politically and racially motivated reason to cheat, so therefore her cheating was justified. And that she was charged while white Superintendents, Inspectors etc are not charged because why? Because they are white?


Then I can't see how you can argue against @mitchell76 bleating that Trump got charged with various crimes, while claiming that "The Biden Crime Family" gets away with the same thing.


But the funniest part is you saying "There was no law broken, to suggest so is hyperbole." You don't even know enough about the law to even speak with any credibility as to the most basic knowledge of the case.

Do you ever admit that you are wrong? Because I only see you dig yourself even deeper when you are factually wrong.
 
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SchlongConery

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As a right winger who has posted against LGBTQ issues repeatedly, I really don't care what your views are or what your claims are on this subject.
Its like getting accused of racism by people backing apartheid and genocide.

What is clear is that your claim you are against cheating is entirely based on race and politics.

There you go again. Imputing malicious motives that the only evidence of is your self-admitted prejudice against the guy because of his positions on other matters.

You've done it to me before. Claiming you "know" how I am thinking, or why I said something. *I* know what I am thinking or why I said something, and most times you say you know better than me what I am thinking, you are wrong.

I hear of guys who have bitter wives that project their insecurities onto their husbands when they get flustered and things aren't going their way. You're arguing like a bitter housewife who knows everything about everything and everyone. A mind reader!
 

Frankfooter

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Uhhhhhmmmmmm. the Police Services Act RSO 1990 is a law. It is not a policy, nor a guideline. It is Law. Well it was the law until April 1st of this year when it was repealed and replaced.

She committed at least 7 offences under that LAW. She pled guilty to breaking them. She did not dispute the factuality.

There has never, and will never be a policy enacted that allows "cops to sneak the questions" to a test. Are you saying that cheating on tests, like lying in Affadavits to get search warrants, to commit perjury on the witness stand etc... should be commonly accepted police practice?

I think what you are saying is that she had a politically and racially motivated reason to cheat, so therefore her cheating was justified. And that she was charged while white Superintendents, Inspectors etc are not charged because why? Because they are white?


Then I can't see how you can argue against @mitchell76 bleating that Trump got charged with various crimes, while claiming that "The Biden Crime Family" gets away with the same thing.


But the funniest part is you saying "There was no law broken, to suggest so is hyperbole." You don't even know enough about the law to even speak with any credibility as to the most basic knowledge of the case.

Do you ever admit that you are wrong? Because I only see you dig yourself even deeper when you are factually wrong.
Where in the act does it say its illegal to give questions to applicants for promotion? Where is it stated as law? You can't just site the title of an act and then declare this specific action was illegal.

The charges are misconduct, but there are no legal penalties, she would not be fined or sent to prison. Just disciplined or fired.

You're still pushing falsehoods here, schlong. Both Kautilya and I have said she broke policy, even if that policy change had been approved by the board and then cancelled by someone above her, its still wrong. She should be punished for that act, but not seriously. Then policy should change to improve process for all applicants and to end the 1.7% promotion rate for black cops.

Mitch would argue rules don't apply to people I back, I say the rules apply but this action was not a serious one and not done to do anything but correct systemic issues in the TPS, issues that the board thought serious enough to pass changing the 'law' as you call it.

 
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Frankfooter

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There you go again. Imputing malicious motives that the only evidence of is your self-admitted prejudice against the guy because of his positions on other matters.

You've done it to me before. Claiming you "know" how I am thinking, or why I said something. *I* know what I am thinking or why I said something, and most times you say you know better than me what I am thinking, you are wrong.

I hear of guys who have bitter wives that project their insecurities onto their husbands when they get flustered and things aren't going their way. You're arguing like a bitter housewife who knows everything about everything and everyone. A mind reader!
Schlong, I know you're upset because I called you out for racism in the Palestine threads.
You may think you're unbiased but your statements towards Muslims clearly were.
It wasn't a matter of talking about what you were thinking, it was clear in what you posted.

If you really do support dialogue and moderation we'd discuss why those statements read as racist, whether you really believe them and how to move forward. Instead you've decided to join skoob on the attack here yourself.

Now you're intentionally inflating claims instead of engaging in honest discussion here.

Both you and skoob want her fired when even the prosecutor in this inquiry doesn't ask that much.
Prosecutor Scott Hutchison, however, told the hearing Clarke's conduct as a senior officer is serious and would normally result in dismissal. But he said Chief Myron Demkiw believes there is still work for Clarke to do as a Toronto officer.

Hutchison proposed that Clarke be demoted two ranks to staff sergeant and be given the opportunity to reapply to become superintendent after two years.


Why? Because the chief said she did more to work with the black community than anyone else.
The former chief said he believes the superintendent has been more successful than anyone in tackling the problem of racism in law enforcement.
From the community:
"She cannot be the person that is punished the hardest... How do you justify that, when you should have implemented the system that would have eliminated the necessity for this?"
 
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SchlongConery

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Schlong, I know you're upset because I called you out for racism in the Palestine threads.
You may think you're unbiased but your statements towards Muslims clearly were.
It wasn't a matter of talking about what you were thinking, it was clear in what you posted.

If you really do support dialogue and moderation we'd discuss why those statements read as racist, whether you really believe them and how to move forward. Instead you've decided to join skoob on the attack here yourself.

Now you're intentionally inflating claims instead of engaging in honest discussion here.

Both you and skoob want her fired when even the prosecutor in this inquiry doesn't ask that much.
Prosecutor Scott Hutchison, however, told the hearing Clarke's conduct as a senior officer is serious and would normally result in dismissal. But he said Chief Myron Demkiw believes there is still work for Clarke to do as a Toronto officer.
Hutchison proposed that Clarke be demoted two ranks to staff sergeant and be given the opportunity to reapply to become superintendent after two years.


Why? Because the chief said she did more to work with the black community than anyone else.
The former chief said he believes the superintendent has been more successful than anyone in tackling the problem of racism in law enforcement.
From the community:
"She cannot be the person that is punished the hardest... How do you justify that, when you should have implemented the system that would have eliminated the necessity for this?"

You call everyone out for racism.

I have not responded to your response in that thread because you are not interested in anything except the righteousness of your opinion.

Here is my considered opinion on Palestine-Israel. It is fucked up beyond my ability to comprehend or come up with any idea of any practical solution. I agree with everything in that 13 page document you posted of the recommendations of charges, that Netanyahu is leading Israel into committing war crimes. I agree that Palestinian people have a right to live on their ancestral lands and that they have been oppressed and they are fighting for that right that Great Britain et al gave away. It was not their right to promise the land to anyone.

However, it is not the right of Hamas Palestinians to fight back with rape, murder, torture and other methods of terrorism. This is terrorism. And they are lining up to become martyrs in the name of God, not Palestine.

How to work it out? Unlike you, I have NO fucking clue how to work it out in PRACTICAL terms. Israel is NOT going to pack up and leave. Full stop. Never. Are Palestinians going to keep self-immolating their own people by continuing to terrorize Israel with the predictable Israeli response?

While I really resent and have lost almost all respect for you over your insolence in ascribing racist motives to me and others, I will say that I believe this about your state of mind. (Notice how I didn't say that I KNOW your state of mind etc. How fucking arrogant would that be?)

What I am about to say will not satsify you. Nothing short of me flying to Israel and arresting Netanyahu and bringing him to the Hague myself will ever satisfy you. THAT'S why I won't engage with you on the matter. And that you express more biased racism and bigotry against anyone who doesn't agree with you than the nutbars like @Addict2sex. Calling me a fucking racist because you read YOUR OWN meaning into what I or anyone posts.? Fuck you. Now I see why so many people have you on ignore or have active hostility towards you. You' act like an asshole.

Having said that, I can and do support the plight of both Palestine and Israel. I do not support the methods of either side and condemn the actions of all parties involved. I have NO idea how to settle this. But I think it is likely to go on for another 50 years. This region is so fucked up with so much I don't think peace will ever be possible there. None of them are going to give up



As for the police thing. Again, you deflect and won't even admit that LAWS were broken. You just use REPLY to tee off on your own agenda and have no respect for the person who took the time to refute your ignorance. SHE ADMITTED TO BREAKING THE LAW! You won't even admit that!

I am principled on integrity. I do not believe in the end justifying the means. I I think any police officer who lies, cheats, steals, assaults or otherwise breaks the trust of the public should not be in a position to take away my liberty or my life.

She, and you, are the ones making race an issue. I don't care what colour anyone''s skin is in this. She seemed to think that these officers needed to cheat because they might not be suitable for a leadership position as a Sargeant. These officers will be forever tainted as a result of her meddling.

And finally, your words and participation in this discussion prove that you are supremely unqualified to opine on the matter. You don't even know the basics of how the promotion system works in the TPA. But y ou do so with such certainty that lose respect for what y ou have to say elsewwhere, like in the Palestine-Israel discussions... because I DON"T KNOW ENOUGH TO KNOW WTF is going on, what has gone on etc. I only learned of Great Britains role in this mess a month ago. I am a voracious consumer of information generally, am quite accomplished and highly proficient in many things in life but only have so much time. I don't know much about Israel because I'm not jewish. First I ever heard of Palestine was when the PLO killed a bunch of people in the Munich Olympics. I'm not attuned to the conflict because I can only have so much going on in my brain. And having been deeply involved in the PC party during the Mulroney era, I have completely lost my taste for politics. TBH, I didn't even pay attention when eastern Ukraine/Crimea was first occupied.

But I'm no longer going to engage in discussion with you. For no other reason that I wouldn't put up with a bitter housewife telling me what *I* am thinking nor would I have a beer with anyone who would be so arrogant as to do that.
 
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