Israel at war
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Another sad sack racist diatribe. But said with the confidence of someone completely in the dark.@Kautilya
Points well made generally. And I agree generally with you and those points.
Except for the part where you say "The Israelis also as a matter of culture do not have any conception of the Palestinians as humans. "
I know enough Israeli's and jews with direct experience there who have to various degrees and with various bias' tried to help me understand this perpetual conflict. None express any such inhuman thoughts, nor could I detect any reading between the lines. FFS, Jews don't even "hate" Germans. I generally find jews to be a bit odd in terms of some customs, but both of my ancestral and both of my religious cultures have odd customs too. Don't we all!
But one thing I have never detected from jewish people is hatred towards anyone. Nor any sense of inhumanity. Despite what I understand was their own history of being treated as sub-humans by many, including Palestinians in the past couple thousand tears anf Germans in modern history. And right-wing racists in 2024. Their anger towards Palestinians is certainly there. And IMO, a natural and justified response to the extremist Palestinians who are carrying out the terror du jour menu. Hijacking airliners to suicide bombers to home made missile attacks, and the Oct 6-7 thing. etc etc.
As I understand it, Palestinian people were and are accepted into society in Israel, far more than they are in fellow Arab countries. And for the most part, were happy to live under what some call Israeli "oppression" and others call "effective modern democratic governance". There are buses, water, electricity etc under Israeli governance. Hamas and the PA are pretty effective at making efficient use of foreign (Iranian) aid for creating tunnels, missiles and weapon... not so much with water and sewers.
If I'm a a Palestinian (even muslim), I'd rather live a life governed by (even jewish) Israelis. I hear they're pretty good with managing money too
Bringing the Russians and Ukrainians into this is truly a Red Herring from the Black Sea!
Whole different kettle of Gefilte Fish!
Oy veh! We goyam and our shiksa-loving-schvantz's kvetching online Kibbutz already!. God forbid we just stick to schtupping?
You were actually able to write a “some of my best friends are…..” post without any sense of how idiotic and racist it is? I grew up listening to these kinds of messages about Black and Brown people. They always looked like morons when they did it. Guess what? They were.
You didn't comment on the video I posted. You just used it to tee off on. You still haven't. You still just used it as springboard to go off further on your narrative.
And you make assumptions of me and my motives, bias' etc that I don't even know because I'm still trying to figure the whole thing out.
If you recall the thread about the guy in the BMW charged wtih murder of the police officer, you might recall me at one point saying, no matter how hard I am trying to comprehend the facts and testimony, not only do I still not understand it, I am more confused than when I started. That's because the cops were shading their testimony to obscure and excuse the behaviour and actions that precipitated the entire chain of events.
And once the objective facts of the physical evidence came into play, then I came to my personal conclusion that the driver was legitimately scared and instinctively fleeing, that the three on-scene police officers colluded in their note making and testimony, also likely did not approach nor handle the scene and situation approriately and their conduct was the proximate cause of Officer Northrup's death, and that the Crown et al were complicit in railroading a man and his family with an improper, political, purpose.
I expected comments and even opinion explaining pro and anti positions. ON THAT SPECIFIC POINT.
I can slosh through 800 pages of xitter re-posts myself. I didn't know anything about the Tripoli coast, Barbary pirates, American slaves, least of all it havig anything to do with Islam. Nor being permitted by the Koran under some infidel rule. Guys like @mandrill and @NotADcotor who are history buffs provide some relevant information.
I am still trying to figure out a much more complex situation, that greater minds than all of ours combined have not been able to.
Your posts, by and large, have the opposite effect that I think you want them to have. You are almost rabid and seem to be far past being able to have a reasonable discussion with.
Despite your counter-productive narrative, I do feel horribly for the Palestinian people. Even the Hamas terrorists. I can only try to imagine the rage and hatred bred and indoctrinated into me such that I would derive pleasure from killing anyone and genuinely look forward to being killed, as a martyr, myself! What a horrific life to experience. Never mind the reasons behind it.
I feel the same for Russians, and conscripted Russian soldiers.
But if I'm a Ukrainian living in my home and Putin sends them to blow up my house, rape my mother and re-claim this cpuntry as their ancestral homeland... they're going to have a helluva fight on their hands.
Same if my cousin is at a music festival and gets shot in a port-a-potty, raped and kidnapped by a bunch of fanatics directed by Hamas leaders living in luxury in aa safe third country, fucking right I'm going to raze every building to find every last one of them. Even though I know for every one I kill, I'm creating another that will ripen in 15 years. I gotta do what I gotta do, now.
And if Palestinians and Russians want to keep killing themselves at a ratio of 1 to 5 or 10, to win back what they feel is their ancestral rights, then that's their choice for this life. Stupid fucks sacrificing their lives for some ideology that is self-defeating.
And you don't know anywhere near enough about me or my friends or our relationships and what we feel comfortable talking about to say anything that doesn't demonstrate how Trumptard-like you have become when it comes to this issue. You couldn't be more wrong. Any more wrong than how I felt you and I had some kindred spirit. Your thoughts and words you express towards me suggest we don't. And that saddens me. Soory to say but you're acting like the Nottyboi of Palestine!
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I don't dispute I am in the dark. Maybe more in the shadows? I'm just expressing my opinions based on my personal experiences and what I've gathered..
And trying to be funny.
Tell me exactly what is wrong, racist or idiotic with me saying what background my friends are?
Especially in light of Frank suggesting that I don't know any Palestinians.
Especially when they are telling ME what they feel about something that I would otherwise have no knowledge of.
Are you dismissing my personal experience in making my contribution to a discussion? Am I allowed to tell or ask anyone about what my online acquaintance Klatuu says about Palestine or Israel?
If I'm not allowed to mix with or have friends of other skin colours and cultures then I am not going to have anyone to talk to about anything. And I'll have to cut out a lot of friends from my life. Or not
So please excuse me for a few months while I read your entire posting history. Then once enlightened I can re-enter the conversation after I have learned the Revealed Truth by Klatuu.
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I appreciate y our thoughts and comments.
And I agree completely with assessing and dealing with people as the individuals they present themselves as. That's why I have as many friends as I do, and very few assholes in my real life.
My Indian friends (and an Indian business partner) are likely the most Indian prejudicial people I know but for some reason they don't project any racism. As this one busienss partner explained it to me. You just have to understand the Indian business culture, for example, to be successful in it. For example, he taught me that it is normal, expected behaviour to negotiate HARD with you over the contract price, but will fight with you over letting them pay the bill at dinner afterwards!
I really don't know what to make of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Least of all have a single atom of thought towards any solution. I think if a perfect paradise of land was found, built to "Cadillac" standards, with a fully stocked fridge and caverns of gold, neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians would say "Thanks, let us just pack our suitcases and let's go!"
And with all my monkeys banging away on typewriters, I failed to communicate that I agree 100% with your three points of distinction. I assumed that any thinking person already realizes one or some is not all nor any. I didn't feel that I had to recite them.
But prejudice works both ways. Many people are spring loaded to be offended if you don't expressly agree with their point, or world view.
Meanwhile…..back to the everyday reality of Palestinians
Absolutely.
Exactly! Both are just as unrelenting and unaccommodating as each other. Heck our TERB members (including myself) who have nothing to do with either peoples, are unrelenting, so just imagine the Israelis and the Palestinians!
And yet, I'm still waffling from day-to-day over my feelings on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. I love to be convinced to change my mind. Yet, I hate to be bullshitted or tried to be played.
Yes, this is what I feel too.
Seems that it doesn't matter who the defender or aggressor is, or who is fundamentally right or wrong in so many conflicts.
Worse, it doesn't seem like we ever learn from history.
Worst of all, is the realization that all the 1970 and 80's Beauty Pageant contestants who said their one wish was "World Peace" had better values than we gave them credit for. And bigger delusions.
Thanks, I will have a look at them and see if they hold my ADD interest.
It's not that I don't know about the basic history. Wayyy before the Brit's promised the Palestinians this for being allies against the Ottomans and then gettin double crossed when the beleagured jewish people were granted a state to declare as their own place of safety etc etc. It's that I don't know how far back or how offended /spiteful is reasonable to draw the line at. And where to go from here. In practical terms. Call be a bigot or whatever, but both Arabs and Jews can be pretty fucking stubborn , never mind conflict between them.
And who the fuck am I to impose my safe high living lifestyle morality and values or offer opinions on the lives and futures of the descendants of goat herders?
I'm also researching whose pussy I want to throw ten bags of flour worth of cash into later tonight.
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It’s Israel that supplies most of the explosives that Hamas uses.
www.timesofisrael.com
.
Much of Hamas’s explosives comes from IDF fire that failed to detonate — report
New York Times says terrorists in Gaza cut open Israeli-fired duds to create rockets; theft from IDF is also major source of weapons
www.timesofisrael.com
It’s Israel that supplies most of the explosives that Hamas uses.
.Much of Hamas’s explosives comes from IDF fire that failed to detonate — report
New York Times says terrorists in Gaza cut open Israeli-fired duds to create rockets; theft from IDF is also major source of weapons
Karma?
You haven't been reading these threads, have you?
Nor have you listened to Israeli politicians or Israelis who have been blocking aid or settlers attacking the west bank?
You need to start from the understanding that Israel has been occupying Palestine for 75 years and is still taking more land through 'settlements' and consider if that have something to do with anger from Palestinians. This is still an active and ongoing settler colonial enterprise.
Here's what should be an easy question, schlong.
Palestinians are living under what is internationally recognized as an illegal occupation. Do they have the right to self defence against this illegal occupation? Do you believe Palestinians have this basic human right?
Every single Israeli supporter on this board says they do not have that basic human right. If you prod further, they will refuse to say that Palestinians have any rights and indeed, most Palestinians under Israeli occupation are considered stateless refugees and under Israeli rule they have zero rights.
The UN, Amnesty, HRW and B'tselem have reported three levels of apartheid in Israel, from 'Israeli Arabs' to those in Jerusalem to those living as stateless refugees under Israeli military occupation. You just argued that Palestinians can and will live happier lives if they had even mostly full human rights as 'Israeli Arabs' do. Instead Netanyahu funded Hamas for years in order to divide Palestinians and keep them from working towards the two state solution and peace. In 2014 Palestinians in Gaza protested at the borders every Friday for almost a year and were met each week by Israeli snipers, killing 200 and injuring 14,000. There has not been an avenue for Palestinians to settle peacefully for half a century now, instead there have been 800 attacks by settlers outside of Gaza since Oct 7.
Sigh, you finished with an antisemitic trope.If I'm a a Palestinian (even muslim), I'd rather live a life governed by (even jewish) Israelis. I hear they're pretty good with managing money too
I did mention the video, I'll discuss it again.
The historian in the video, Hitchens, discusses one historical story he heard third or fourth hand, likely. It may be true and it may not be true. Its quite possible the Muslim leader in the video said something like that and had those attitudes. Racism 150 years ago was everywhere, how long after the end of American slavery was this quote taken? I doubt those attitudes, if the quote is true, were limited to any one religion or people. That's why it makes me ask why you picked this one quote from Hitchens, where he has other attitudes that I doubt you'd agree with, like his views against zionism and Israel.
Posting a quote like that is a setup for arguing that 'the terror that is Islam' as you said, is historically based. But it would be like trying to argue all Germans are nazis because its historically based.
No, I do believe that you are trying to figure things out. I'm just trying to point out that you are coming from a place that already has considerable bias towards Israelis and zionists.
I don't remember that story but glad to hear you are open to change.
On what specific point? The argument that since one Muslim leader 150 years ago was racist and hate filled that you think all Palestinians today are also? Again, that's like posting a video about Hitler in a thread about Germans attitudes and saying 'discuss'. I can find one or more hateful quote from Israeli leaders for every Palestinian/Hamas quote you find, but its not helpful towards discussing solutions.
Start with this.
Do Palestinians deserve equal rights?
But if you're Palestinian and living under a 75 year occupation, inside a 17 year blockade in Gaza and watching settlers take Palestinian land by force throughout the year, what do you?
If you're Israeli, you're there with an army and $3 billion in annual US weapons and have wiped Palestine off the map. The violence is the resistance of the people you are occupying, if you want the violence to stop you need to find a way to end the occupation.
Again, if you are using the Russian metaphor, use it correctly.
Ukraine is being occupied and invaded by Russians.
Palestine is being occupied and invaded by zionists.
To this day Israel is still announcing new 'settlements' on what could have been Palestine.
Really, I'm interested in figuring out how to stop the genocide, end the occupation and allow the two peoples now living in Israel/Palestine to live together. Arguing that Palestinians have no rights to 'ancestral' lands when it is their land and the land of their parents is disingenous, its again arguing that Palestinians have no human rights including the UN ordered and internationally recognized Right of Return.. There are Palestinians in Gaza that are older than Israel.
Likewise, I've always enjoyed our discussions and debates on other subjects.And you don't know anywhere near enough about me or my friends or our relationships and what we feel comfortable talking about to say anything that doesn't demonstrate how Trumptard-like you have become when it comes to this issue. You couldn't be more wrong. Any more wrong than how I felt you and I had some kindred spirit. Your thoughts and words you express towards me suggest we don't. And that saddens me. Soory to say but you're acting like the Nottyboi of Palestine!
Offline I'd invite you to a coffee with Palestinian friends to really discuss the issues, or to meet up with left wing Jews who are also anti zionist. If you really want to understand the issues you need to talk to Palestinians who will talk to you about their family in Gaza or the West Bank and tell you what life under Israeli occupation is really like. They are just people, most just want to live their lives.
