TPS officer killed

[Not getting younger]

Agreed it is an assault. Poking someone in the chest or laying a finger is an assault. Even if there is no injury.

It is my understanding of Canadian law on self defence is that it an attempt to extricate yourself from what you reasonably believe to be a situation that may result in a threat to your personal safety is almost a prerequisite to escalating to active self defence acts.

So if someone rushes "with purpose" up to your car and sticks their hand in the door to prevent you from closing it.. and your instinct in that moment is to slam it shut and their hand gets hurt... then what? You drive the Gardiner to Spadina. I don't even make eye contact with anyone who comes up to my door while stopped in traffic. Heck I don't even look sideways at any car beside me. Fucking lunatics on the road these days.

So I never even look at nor acknowledge anyone, let alone a scruffy, possibly mentally ill vagrant who approach my and every car every fucking time there is a red light.

Not long ago I had this one guy (ironically he looked just like PC Northrup did that night) come up to my car at around midnight while I was the second car in line in the left lane at the lights EB Gardiner to NB Spadina.ramp. He stopped at my door. I kept my eyes straight ahead. He said something to me, I ignored him then he started yelling something I couldn't make out. I double checked my power door locks and the click of the lock infuriated him and he banged on my window. I took off around the car ahead into the empty righ tlande and went through the intersection illegally onto EB lakeshore. All before the third stike landed and . On a red light. Always being aware of who is near or appraochng the intersection I felt I was clear. So yeah, if I hit another car I think I'd be justified. I wouldn't have any reason to beleive this was an undercover cop either as I had no guilty mind etc. Glad I have a dash cam too! So yeah, I can feel for the guy even though I had no adrenaline and I knew I had an escape route.

Anyways...

So far it is only the testimony of the police officers that they approached in a non threatening manner and clearly identified themselves as police officers. Today's testimony of PC Correa has also been proven to be contrary to his previous preliminary hearing testimony. PC Pais today's perjurious confession to criminally assaulting a handcuffed prisoner on his knees pretty much shits the bed on his credibility.

PC POS Pais has an adjudicated history of lying after falsely accusing some boys of the despicable cowardly police tactic of "assaulting police". Despite his conviction for professional misconduct by his own fellow police officers,, and subsequent unsuccessful appeal... the unrepentant hot head liar has the gall to still refuse, today in court, to acknowledge his illegal and dishonest, dishonourable conduct.

" Hasan also questioned Pais about being found guilty of professional misconduct involving the 2011 unlawful arrest of a group of black teen boys whom he and a partner stopped while they were walking in their own housing complex. After a brief interaction, Pais and another officer detained and arrested the boys for assaulting police.

“But they didn’t assault anybody, correct?” Hasan asked.

“Subjectively my belief was different at the time,” as well as his partner’s, he replied.

Pais agreed that he appealed the professional misconduct decision, and lost."


(Today's Torstar coverage is pretty enlightening.)

Toronto cop describes ‘very abrupt, dangerous’ movements before death of Const. Jeffrey Northrup

“Jeff braces for impact, faces the vehicle, both his hands are up in the air,” Const. Antonio Correa testified.

www.thestar.com

one and one question only.
Have you ever been in a situation like that.

I’m guessing no matter what you do. There are certain things you do without even really thinking about them. Just comes automatically. . Like using loud voices to get someone’s attention and banging on a hood. Like yelling “police”. One thing I’m pretty sure of.

Carjackers likewise have things they do…and don’t like yelling and screaming banging on cars in very public places. Especially a place with loaded with cops and guns.

For all anyone knows, he feels exactly the way you do. “I’m tired of bullies with badges”.

So if it’s a case of he said she said. I know who is far more credible. Making a scene in a place loaded with cops…not something many bangers are gonna do.

 

[SchlongConery]

@mandrill

Before I keep shooting my mouth off more... I'm going to try to go through whatever court reporting there has been thus far to try to figure out the timeline and who did and said what, when and how.

Because I'm not only not sure of the picture of the sequence of events, I'm even more confused.

I realize I may be making some pretty serious disparaging statements without having a clearer picture. For example, I interpret contradictory understanding of whether the BMW first hit PC Northrup backing up, or going forward. Or whether the first contact was a sideswipe.

But my sincere instinct is that the driver had a sincere apprehension of imminent risk to himself, pregnant wife and small boy. I think he reacted instinctively and without believing that he was fleeing from police.

If the law says his actions were uunreasonable under the circumstances and the Judge/Jury agrees, well I will accept that decision as they will have more first hand knowledge to make that decision.

One thing I am absolutely certain of though through many personal direct involvement with reported events.. Is that even the most well intentioned, unbiased careful reporters ALWAYS get more than a few things COMPLETELY wrong. So even with my trying to get the complete accurate picture of what went on in Court, I won't.

So I'll excuse myself, revisit and reply sine die!

 

[Nathan 88]

If I’m in an underground garage, and a couple of scruffy looking, people are approaching me in a aggressive way, it’s gonna make me a little bit nervous, even if they show a badge, which nowadays can be easily obtained from a number of sources.
Do you take a chance and believe they are police or do you try and make a run for it.
To be honest, I really don’t know what I would do.

 

[Robert Mugabe]

But the cops weren't going to assault him. The perp just believed they were - apparently.

My point still stands.

"If your route of escape necessarily involves a potentially serious assault on someone else, it's still an assault, even if you really just want to get tf out of there."

Doesn't make any difference according to you whether the threat is real or imagined. If it is real, according to you, it is still an assault to try to escape, even if it involves injuring the attacker to save your own life.

 

[Butler1000]

More I'm seeing reporting on this the more I'm seeing reasonable doubt.

 

[Robert Mugabe]

problem solved

 

[SchlongConery]

problem solved

It's for real! At least it was 10-15 or so years ago! A guy I met here in Canada owned a small cell network company in SA and he told me had that installed. Said his house had razor wire and had to have guards wth machine gun nests.

Another (Euro) friend loves SA and bought a vacation place somewhere in rural SA. He retired last year and says things are so fucking dangerous and utilities so unstable that he may never move there , or even go back.

I've always wanted to visit SA but am apprehensive. Anyone actually been there recently? Is it that bad or just exaggerated?

 

[SchlongConery]

For real. I was just taking a walk down Queen, towards Parkdale and this mentally ill vagrant, who was on the sidewalk, pretty much, looked directly at every pedestrian, and barred his teeth, grinding it while making weird noises. I immediately just crossed over to the other side. Wasn't sure if it was some nut job on bath salts who'd eat half my face or whatever.

Yeah it can really be unsettling.

A few years ago after a distant relative that I was actually close to took their own life after beginning to develop mild schizophrenia I tried to learn more about it to tr to understand.

This relatively mild 5 minute CNN segment was all I could take. There are more intense simulatoions on YouTube but beware,

It helped me understand and empathize with the people I pass on the streets in the same area, Made me less afraid because it seems that while you thnk you are the subject of their actions and words, it is occurring within their own minds, So now I just pass by without any changes if I don't notice them far enough away. My thinkng is that I don't wantto attract their attention.

Well worrth the 5 minutes. Gave me a completely different perspective on mental illness in general.

 

[SchlongConery]

Yeah, I just saw a few videos of Schizophrenia. It is quite disturbing.

Do you think that simulation helps you understand it and maybe have less fear of the guy you encountered? It did for me. But I couldn't watch anything stronger than the Anderson Cooper segment. Made me feel claustrophobic. I'd go bonkers if I actually tried the simulation with earbuds. Those poor people who have to live with that.

 

[SchlongConery]

The Anderson Cooper segment gave me anxiety.

Cant imagine the difficulty where someone's world is consumed by this.

Yeah, me too. On both counts!

 

[Not getting younger]

If I’m in an underground garage, and a couple of scruffy looking, people are approaching me in a aggressive way, it’s gonna make me a little bit nervous, even if they show a badge, which nowadays can be easily obtained from a number of sources.
Do you take a chance and believe they are police or do you try and make a run for it.
To be honest, I really don’t know what I would do.

No-one does. Until your in a situation where adrenaline/cortisol and emotions spike large.

That said.
if your looking to jack a car in a public place you know is filled with cops………

…or if you are Johnny Q potential victim in a public place you know is filled with cops.

Me first reactions?

Lean on the horn if I don’t have a gun in my face, or give them the car. Nor am I going to jump on the gas pedal and think I’m a stunt driver in a parking garage. There’s all kinds of hard immovable things around….

I have a wife and baby on board and I know the place is filled with cops.

 

[mandrill]

My point still stands.

"If your route of escape necessarily involves a potentially serious assault on someone else, it's still an assault, even if you really just want to get tf out of there."

Doesn't make any difference according to you whether the threat is real or imagined. If it is real, according to you, it is still an assault to try to escape, even if it involves injuring the attacker to save your own life.

If it's real, the accused arguably meets the proportionality test in s. 34. If it is imaginary, how can his reaction to flee by killing one of the imagined assailants be proportional?

 

[mandrill]

@mandrill

Before I keep shooting my mouth off more... I'm going to try to go through whatever court reporting there has been thus far to try to figure out the timeline and who did and said what, when and how.

Because I'm not only not sure of the picture of the sequence of events, I'm even more confused.

I realize I may be making some pretty serious disparaging statements without having a clearer picture. For example, I interpret contradictory understanding of whether the BMW first hit PC Northrup backing up, or going forward. Or whether the first contact was a sideswipe.

But my sincere instinct is that the driver had a sincere apprehension of imminent risk to himself, pregnant wife and small boy. I think he reacted instinctively and without believing that he was fleeing from police.

If the law says his actions were uunreasonable under the circumstances and the Judge/Jury agrees, well I will accept that decision as they will have more first hand knowledge to make that decision.

One thing I am absolutely certain of though through many personal direct involvement with reported events.. Is that even the most well intentioned, unbiased careful reporters ALWAYS get more than a few things COMPLETELY wrong. So even with my trying to get the complete accurate picture of what went on in Court, I won't.

So I'll excuse myself, revisit and reply sine die!

Is there a surveillance video of the event available to look at?

 

[mandrill]

It's for real! At least it was 10-15 or so years ago! A guy I met here in Canada owned a small cell network company in SA and he told me had that installed. Said his house had razor wire and had to have guards wth machine gun nests.

Another (Euro) friend loves SA and bought a vacation place somewhere in rural SA. He retired last year and says things are so fucking dangerous and utilities so unstable that he may never move there , or even go back.

I've always wanted to visit SA but am apprehensive. Anyone actually been there recently? Is it that bad or just exaggerated?

That's consistent with videos that I have seen on SA. The government is so corrupt and incompetent that services and the police are breaking down.

It's always been very violent.

 

[mandrill]

If I’m in an underground garage, and a couple of scruffy looking, people are approaching me in a aggressive way, it’s gonna make me a little bit nervous, even if they show a badge, which nowadays can be easily obtained from a number of sources.
Do you take a chance and believe they are police or do you try and make a run for it.
To be honest, I really don’t know what I would do.

Let me toss a couple more suggestions at you.

How about winding down the window a crack and saying "You're scaring me. Back off or I am going to drive away and will hit you if you try to block me" ??

Looks like there was no attempt at any communication here by the accused. And no attempt to warn.

Several years ago, I was behind a car on a narrow ramp outside Fairview Mall. The car braked to halt and blocked me for several seconds. I am guessing the driver was playing with his cell. I hooted my horn pretty aggressively at him. He was an asshole and drove on a few yards and then again braked suddenly - this time clearly to piss me off. I hooted at him again. This was repeated several times until he exited the ramp. Then the car blocked me off and this massive Black kid exited. He was taller than 6' and massive. And he walked over to my car. I locked up and simply stared at him. He called me an asshole and then went back into his car and drove off.

I would pretty clearly have lost whatever fight could have happened. But it never occurred to me to run him over and drive over his body.

 

[Anbarandy]

Let me toss a couple more suggestions at you.

How about winding down the window a crack and saying "You're scaring me. Back off or I am going to drive away and will hit you if you try to block me" ??

Looks like there was no attempt at any communication here by the accused. And no attempt to warn.

Several years ago, I was behind a car on a narrow ramp outside Fairview Mall. The car braked to halt and blocked me for several seconds. I am guessing the driver was playing with his cell. I hooted my horn pretty agressively at him. He was an asshole and drove on a few yards and then again braked suddenly - this time clearly to piss me off. I hooted at him again. This was repeated several times until he exited the ramp. Then the car blocked me off and this massive Black kid exited. He was taller than 6' and massive. And he walked over to my car. I locked up and simply stared at him. He called me an asshole and then went back into his car and drove off.

I would pretty clearly have lost whatever fight could have happened. But it never occurred to me to run him over and drive over his body.

Bro, you're Bud Plugging again.

 

[SchlongConery]

Is there a surveillance video of the event available to look at?

There are several fuller videos and shorter clips of various scenes on various sources. All with differing, or no narration or captions. Some conflict with each officer's testimony. So that's why I realized I was contradicting my own posts.

So far, from what I seem to put together is what seems to have gone down.

1. As Forbes and Northrup approach on foot, driver and family jump into their car.

2. Forbes and Northrup come up to BMW on driver's side.

3. Small, stable handprint on middle of rear left back seat window (with perforated sunshade drawn down) suggests female officer placed her hand on that window to look into car.

4. Larger smudged handprint on driver's (closed) window looks like it might be that of Northrup. Rather than my previous supposition that it might have been be that of PC Pais

5. Both these are consistent with Officer's Forbes, Pais and Corrrea's testimony that Northrup and Forbes came up to the driver on the driver's side of the car.

Now this is where the inconsistencies confuse me. Especially since there was some cross examination that the Coroner/Forensic crime scene reports refuted Forbes sequence of events of Northrup being knocked down from a forward movement and then the fatal rollover was in reverse or vice versa.

6. Testimony and video suggests that the driver put the car in gear and lurched backwards first and adjacently "sideswiped" both Northrup and Forbes. Forbes fell or moved laterally/sideways away from the car. While Northrup was left (or moved) standing in front of or behind the BMW after the initial movement of the BMW.

Corrrea testified he saw Northrup standing up directly in front of (or behind according to forensics as I somehow remember but I'm not sure... again the reporting and videos are confusing) holding what is assumed to be his badge with a forward extended arm a moment before the BMW knocked his legs out from under him and Correa said knocked Northrup "to the floor"

-The reporting and video are inconsistent about if the BMW first drove forward, then reversed, then forward. The minivan collision occurred after a short pursuit and was further away in the garage from the Const NOrthrup's body.

7. The final forward aggressive, engine revving, tires squealing right swerving manoeuver was when Northrup was rolled over and suffered the catastrophic injuries.

8. This final escape manuever (Correa's characterization) occurred just after the minivan arrived. (Video shows the minivan was travelling fast as it approached the BMW.)

Correa disagreed with Defense counsel's characterization that it would have appeared that the minivan was attempting to block in the BMW. Correa said the BMW had plenty of room (he said it was at least a car length- whether that distance was at the time the BMW had not yet moved forward from reversing, or when it was already in motion )

That's waht I can make of it but I'm not taking notes.

What is interesting though is that the BMW has no visible impact marks on the front of the car. Not the hood, nor the spoiler. Which I find unusual after striking a 6'4" 299lb man to the ground and/or driving over him in a forward direction. Not saying it didn't go down in that sequence. Just taht when a low car strikes an upright, tall pedestrian it usually leaves a big dent on the (aluminium) hood. And if you run over something, those BMW spoilers come right off. Especially a 300 pound man..

Just on the basis of the forward-back-forward sequence it wouldn't surprise me if the fatal impact was with the BMW driving in reverse. Or Northrup already being "on the floor" .

Both are consistent with driver not even seeing him when he panicked, fled and inflicted the fatal injuries.

But like I said, the reporting is confusing and has lots of holes and contradictions.

Here is the most clear account and videos/pics I have foiund so far. It's a Citypulse video that won't embed as such so you have to click on the link

Arresting officer testifies at trial of man accused of killing Toronto cop

The officer who arrested the man accused of killing Detective Constable Jeffrey Northrup took to the stand Monday. Erica Natividad with how he recalls that night in July 2021.

toronto.citynews.ca

 

[mandrill]

There are several fuller videos and shorter clips of various scenes on various sources. All with differing, or no narration or captions. Some conflict with each officer's testimony. So that's why I realized I was contradicting my own posts.

So far, from what I seem to put together is what seems to have gone down.

1. As Forbes and Northrup approach on foot, driver and family jump into their car.

2. Forbes and Northrup come up to BMW on driver's side.

3. Small, stable handprint on middle of rear left back seat window (with perforated sunshade drawn down) suggests female officer placed her hand on that window to look into car.

4. Larger smudged handprint on driver's (closed) window looks like it might be that of Northrup. Rather than my previous supposition that it might have been be that of PC Pais

5. Both these are consistent with Officer's Forbes, Pais and Corrrea's testimony that Northrup and Forbes came up to the driver on the driver's side of the car.

Now this is where the inconsistencies confuse me. Especially since there was some cross examination that the Coroner/Forensic crime scene reports refuted Forbes sequence of events of Northrup being knocked down from a forward movement and then the fatal rollover was in reverse or vice versa.

6. Testimony and video suggests that the driver put the car in gear and lurched backwards first and adjacently "sideswiped" both Northrup and Forbes. Forbes fell or moved laterally/sideways away from the car. While Northrup was left (or moved) standing in front of or behind the BMW after the initial movement of the BMW.

Corrrea testified he saw Northrup standing up directly in front of (or behind according to forensics as I somehow remember but I'm not sure... again the reporting and videos are confusing) holding what is assumed to be his badge with a forward extended arm a moment before the BMW knocked his legs out from under him and Correa said knocked Northrup "to the floor"

-The reporting and video are inconsistent about if the BMW first drove forward, then reversed, then forward. The minivan collision occurred after a short pursuit and was further away in the garage from the Const NOrthrup's body.

7. The final forward aggressive, engine revving, tires squealing right swerving manoeuver was when Northrup was rolled over and suffered the catastrophic injuries.

8. This final escape manuever (Correa's characterization) occurred just after the minivan arrived. (Video shows the minivan was travelling fast as it approached the BMW.)

Correa disagreed with Defense counsel's characterization that it would have appeared that the minivan was attempting to block in the BMW. Correa said the BMW had plenty of room (he said it was at least a car length- whether that distance was at the time the BMW had not yet moved forward from reversing, or when it was already in motion )

That's waht I can make of it but I'm not taking notes.

What is interesting though is that the BMW has no visible impact marks on the front of the car. Not the hood, nor the spoiler. Which I find unusual after striking a 6'4" 299lb man to the ground and/or driving over him in a forward direction. Not saying it didn't go down in that sequence. Just taht when a low car strikes an upright, tall pedestrian it usually leaves a big dent on the (aluminium) hood. And if you run over something, those BMW spoilers come right off. Especially a 300 pound man..


Just on the basis of the forward-back-forward sequence it wouldn't surprise me if the fatal impact was with the BMW driving in reverse. Or Northrup already being "on the floor" .

Both are consistent with driver not even seeing him when he panicked, fled and inflicted the fatal injuries.

But like I said, the reporting is confusing and has lots of holes and contradictions.

Here is the most clear account and videos/pics I have foiund so far. It's a Citypulse video that won't embed as such so you have to click on the link

Arresting officer testifies at trial of man accused of killing Toronto cop

The officer who arrested the man accused of killing Detective Constable Jeffrey Northrup took to the stand Monday. Erica Natividad with how he recalls that night in July 2021.

toronto.citynews.ca

My popularity on TERB is going to nose dive, but I'm saying Murder One. If the cop ID-ed himself by holding his badge and there was no imminent threat of violence, I don't see how a s. 34 defence can possibly fly.

It's an objective "reasonable" standard of behaviour - what the prudent, thoughtful guy in the street would do. It's not a subjective standard - i.e. what THIS individual driver thought he should do.

OTOH, it's a jury trial. So we'll see.

OTOH again, the judge gives detailed instructions on the law to the jury which should influence them on how to think.

 

[mandrill]

Bro, you're Bud Plugging again.

No, this is pretty standard stuff that lawyers do.

Sorry you don't get it. Go start yet another thread about Doug Ford that no one will read.

 

[SchlongConery]

Let me toss a couple more suggestions at you.

How about winding down the window a crack and saying "You're scaring me. Back off or I am going to drive away and will hit you if you try to block me" ??

Hate to say this pal but you are pulling a Jean Chretien and talking out of both sides of your face.

On one hand you are saying that a skinny little accountant, alone with his pregnant wife and toddler son who had already noticed two, as yet unknown, two scruffy people approaching them , one standing 6'4" and 300 lbs wearing a mask... in a vacant underground garage late at night "with purpose" ) should waste potentially valuable seconds, drop whatever protection the closed window might provide... to confront or otherwise engage with who they could reasonable already formed and are reacting with some level of uncertainty if not outright fear. and recite some perfunctory statement? And issue a threat of their already formulated plan of aggravated assault? And sorry, but unless they were in a gull wing Mercedes, Tesla or Lambo how are they going to knock down anyone at the drivers door?

But yeah, I can see how some criminal or aggressively panhandling junkie pair are going to pee their pants or apologized over that threat.

Fuck that!

As I said elsewhere. About the ONLY thing that I am afraid of is CRAZY people. They are the most dangerous ones.

FIRST rule of personal safety when dealing with anyone who you feel is acting crazy or otherwise in a threatening manner is to NOT ENGAGE with them. You cannot reason with them. Engaging only opens the door to further encourage them to continue the encounter. That's why for example, touts and other street creatures often come up and try to engage in some opening conversation. IGNORE THEM. And don't make eye contact even with what may appear to be benignly metally compromised street people. Yes, it could seem uncaring and cruel but if you make eye contact with them, they may see that as a threat of challenge

Looks like there was no attempt at any communication here by the accused. And no attempt to warn.

Since when have potential robbery victims have the obligation to communicate their potential defence strategy with potential assailants, robbers, car jackers?

I'll tell you when. NEVER!

Might I remind you that sophisticated, organized crime carjackings and high end vehicle thefts are a major crime crisis then and to this day.

And defense counsel said in his opening statement that the family said they were afraid because the memory of a family of hijab wearing Muslims was run down by a nice innocent looking 21 year old white nationalist terrorist in a pickup truck in London not even a month prior.

But let's turn this around to the professions, trained in public interactions.

There is no accusation that the defendant had any intention, motive nor even mens rea to kill a police officer. Everything seems to point to him not thinking they were police... including the spontaneous utterance of the wife.

So it may be reasonable to assume that the police officers' attempt to communicate that they were police and posed no threat to the family was inadequate to say the least. That is if you take them at their potentially shaded testimony that they only considered the family as a witness, not the bearded brown man as a suspect resembling the actual stabbing suspect the police had summoned all hands on deck to look for? Cops were called in off other assignments to flood the area. The miniivan was zooming around the parking lot already, looking for the suspect.

Mebbee they are covering their tracks by not admitting they did consider him a suspect? Maybe they approached him in a manner consistent with how you would approach a potentially dangerous suspect? "With purpose"? Agressively, stealthily, catch him by surprise before he could take out a weapon?

How many times has a young black man wearing a hoodie been agressively taken down 'detained' because he resembles a hot suspect at large?

So, I'd say that the driver had no obligation to lay out his defensive plans in a threat, and the police failed in their actions to clearly communicate they were police and posed no threat to the family.