You are the one that keeps calling all the news and human rights reports 'fake news'.
The complexities of Sudan
- Thread starter basketcase
- Start date
Genocide is no based upon the number of deaths, however tragic and yes the situation is Gaza is tragic. Were WWI or WWI or Viet Mam etc genocides? Everyone should lament the human tragedy is Gaza but that is very different than referring to it as genocide which has nothing to do with the tragedy and everything to do with demonizing Israel.
If I thought there was any point in attempting to reason with you i would. you are blinded by your jew hatred and your myopic interest in demonizing Israel. I would much rather engage with a poster who has an interest in reason.
Criticism of zionism and Israeli genocide is not antisemitic.
Not much different.
You still haven't explained why you think Americans lobbying on relations with Israel shouldn't have the same rights as Americans lobbying on their relations with Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, or China.
So the Ottomans ruling over other people's is fine with you but Brits doing the same thing is evil. That's reasonable.
And sorry but it is absolutely idiotic and hypocritical for you to claim that Jews were some kind of invaders. Just like you, the European Jews who did go to Palestine under the Ottomans and generally under the Brits were immigrants, following the rule of law as they did so. It is clearly racist for you to pretend that Jews can't be legal immigrants.
You also ignore the history of the Ottoman Empire and it's breakup into ethnic states. You're fine with Bosnia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, Armenia, Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria being broken up into nation-states while at the same time saying that the million+ Ottoman Jews who were often subject to persecution shouldn't have that right. Greece is a really good comparison as it resulted in population transfers of 1.5 million people.
And your knowledge of history is non-existent. As we've gone over, the massacres were done by Arab mobs for a couple decades before Jews started retaliating. There was absolutely zero difference between Arab leaders inciting mobs against Jews and the Aryan Strikeforce inciting attacks on South Asians in Brampton.
It's pathetic that you think self determination for Jews isn't a thing while demanding self determination for others. You are simply just an ignorant racist.
In the real world it does but yes, intent is a big part of it. It is clear from their own statements that Hamas' goal is genocide and ethnic cleansing of Jews. The fact that both the Arab Israeli and Palestinian populations are growing does pretty much dismiss the genocide claims except for people so politically motivated that facts don't matter.
Making up accusations of genocide and having a ridiculous double standard to Israel is though. There are plenty of well meaning people who criticize Israeli actions or policy but then there are people like you who argue against the presence of Jews in the region.
Those are all labelled as foreign lobbyists, as AIPAC should be as well.
From the UN report on the Israeli genocide you keep backing.
A/HRC/55/73
Contextualizing genocide
Genocide as inherent to settler-colonialism
8. Genocide, as the denial of the right of a people to exist and the subsequent attempt or success in annihilating them, entails various modes of elimination.12 Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term “genocide”, observed that genocide is “a composite of different acts of persecution or destruction”,13 ranging from physical elimination to the “forced disintegration” of a people’s political and social institutions, culture, language, national sentiments and religion.14 Genocide is a process, not an act.15
9. Genocidal intent and practices are integral to the ideology and processes of settler- colonialism,16 as the experience of Native Americans in the U.S., First Nations in Australia or Herero in Namibia illustrates. As settler-colonialism aims to acquire Indigenous land and resources, the mere existence of Indigenous peoples poses an existential threat to the settler society.17 Destruction and replacement of Indigenous people become therefore ‘unavoidable’ and take place through different methods depending on the perceived threat to the settler group. These include removal (forcible transfer, ethnic cleansing), movement restrictions (segregation, largescale carceralization), mass killings (murder, disease, starvation), assimilation (cultural erasure, child removal) and birth prevention.18 Settler-colonialism is a dynamic, structural process and a confluence of acts aimed at displacing and eliminating Indigenous groups, of which genocidal extermination/annihilation represents the peak.19
From the UN report on Israeli genocide, the historical context.So the Ottomans ruling over other people's is fine with you but Brits doing the same thing is evil. That's reasonable.
And sorry but it is absolutely idiotic and hypocritical for you to claim that Jews were some kind of invaders. Just like you, the European Jews who did go to Palestine under the Ottomans and generally under the Brits were immigrants, following the rule of law as they did so. It is clearly racist for you to pretend that Jews can't be legal immigrants.
A/HRC/55/73
Palestine and the context of genocide
10. Historical patterns of genocide demonstrate that persecution, discrimination and other preliminary stages prepare the ground for the annihilation stage of genocide.20 In Palestine, displacing and erasing the Indigenous Arab presence has been an inevitable part of the forming of Israel as a ‘Jewish state’.21 In 1940, Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Colonization Department stated: “there is no room for both peoples, together in this country. The only solution is Palestine without Arabs. And there is no other way but to transfer all of them: not one village, not one tribe should be left.”22
11. Practices leading to the mass ethnic cleansing of Palestine’s non-Jewish population occurred in 1947–1949, and again in 1967, when Israel occupied the West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip with mass displacement of hundreds of thousands, killings, destruction of villages and towns, looting and the denial of the right to return of expelled Palestinians.23
Since 1967, Israel has advanced its settler-colonial project through military occupation, stripping the Palestinian people of their right to self-determination.24 This has resulted in the segregation and control of Palestinians, including through land confiscation, house demolitions, revoked residencies and deportation.25 Punishing their indigeneity and rejection of colonization, Israel construed Palestinians as a ‘security threat’ to justify their oppression and “de-civilianization”, namely the denial of their status as protected civilians.26
13. Israel has progressively turned Gaza into a highly controlled enclave.27 Since the 2005 evacuation of Israeli settlers (which Israel’s current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu strongly opposed),28 Israel’s settler movement and leaders have framed Gaza as a territory to be “re-colonized” and its population as invaders to be expelled.29 These unlawful claims are integral to the project of consolidating the “exclusive and unassailable right of the Jewish people” on the land of “Greater Israel”, as reaffirmed by Prime Minister Netanyahu in December 2022.30
14. This is the historical background against which the atrocities in Gaza are unfolding.
You can't use your own hatred and demonization of another people to justify genocide.
There is no excuse for genocide, no matter how evil you think Palestinians are or what you think they might do to you.
True, if you ignore what Hamas does and says.
And no, Hamas is not asking for the '67 borders. You should try reading the whole document instead of parroting what Frank claims. They say they won't object to the creation of a Palestinian state but are 100% clear that they won't stop until Israel is destroyed.
A few sections.
Hamas in 2017: The document in full
Hamas explains general principles and objectives in 42-article document
www.middleeasteye.net
Preamble
Palestine is the land of the Arab Palestinian people, from it they originate, to it they adhere and belong, and about it they reach out and communicate.
Palestine is a land whose status has been elevated by Islam, a faith that holds it in high esteem, that breathes through it its spirit and just values and that lays the foundation for the doctrine of defending and protecting it.
...
2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.
3. Palestine is an Arab Islamic land. It is a blessed sacred land that has a special place in the heart of every Arab and every Muslim.
...
12. The Palestinian cause in its essence is a cause of an occupied land and a displaced people. The right of the Palestinian refugees and the displaced to return to their homes from which they were banished or were banned from returning to – whether in the lands occupied in 1948 or in 1967 (that is the whole of Palestine), is a natural right, both individual and collective. This right is confirmed by all divine laws as well as by the basic principles of human rights and international law. It is an inalienable right and cannot be dispensed with by any party, whether Palestinian, Arab or international.
...
18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.
And most importantly,
19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.
20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.
...antisemite's report for the dictator council.
I guess your response means you are also afraid to discuss any actual history.
They lobby for Likud, not American Jews.
You posted Hamas saying they will settle for the two state solution.
Meanwhile Netanyahu bragged about blocking the two state solution for decades and says he'd never allow it.
You just proved that Israel is the problem, not Hamas.
Israel is the one stealing land, committing genocide and refusing to settle for peace.
I'm sure that's what North Korea says now too.
All you're doing is confirming that Israel is a pariah state that is now ignoring the UNSC demand for a ceasefire, the ICJ demand to stop starving children to death and the UN report saying Israel is committing genocide.
Israel is worse than North Korea, Iran or Russia now.
However, it still fits perfectly with the criteria that you gave to prove genocide.
That is exactly what Hamas intended and accomplished on Oct.7.
You are talking about WHY Hamas intended to cause those deaths. It was their motivation.
Regardless of their motivation, their intent was to cause those Israeli deaths. And they succeeded. Motivation and intent are 2 different things. For example someone says "I hate person X." That is their motivation. Next is "I intend to do something to harm person X because I hate him and I'm going to key his car". That is their intent. Hate is the motivation and keying the car was the intent.
By your own parameters, Hamas perpetrated genocide on Oct.7.
You are wrong. Read my post.
Their intent was retaliation. And their intent was to retaliate by murdering civilians. Via your own parameters, that was genocide. Those people on Oct.7 did not die accidentally. Hamas planned this attack months in advance. The killings were intentional.
Let's approach this another way. How did Hamas intend to retaliate? Hint: They showed us.
