Fair point, and I don't necessarily disagree. But the fact that he's being called out as a Democrat shill or something is problematic, but more its just an excuse for Trump to justify his shitty and illegal behaviour and pretend this is a witch hunt.
Joe Biden ruled as too incompetent to face charges
- Thread starter Butler1000
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Well, there are certainly smart, presentable Dems who are younger than either Joe or Donny.Yes, yes, yes.........there must be the Wayne Gretzky of Democrats out there somewhere.
Can you imagine the photo ops of the tall, dashing pair of Gavin Newsom and Justin Trudeau standing together. Macron will slide out of frame.
Biden’s DOJ has a five hour tape that would end Biden’s re-election campaign. That tape's now being leveraged over the president and can be used against him at any time. Not only is he compromised by the Chinese- he’s now subject to blackmail by his own administration. Worst of all- Biden’s base is now breaking off into factions, which is fatal to political power.
Why Biden and Trump's classified documents cases aren't the same: Experts
Trump says there's a two-tiered system of justice -- but Robert Hur disagrees.
Within two months in late 2022, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed two separate special counsels to investigate the unauthorized retention of classified documents by a former and current president.
One special counsel, Jack Smith, returned with two indictments, alleging that former President Donald Trump violated the Espionage Act as a private citizen and conspired with others to obstruct justice -- charges for which he had pleaded not guilty and denied all wrongdoing.
Thirteen months after his appointment, special counsel Robert Hur on Thursday returned a report recommending against any criminal charges for President Joe Biden, despite finding what he described as ample evidence that the president willingly retained and shared highly classified information as a private citizen.
MORE: Special counsel won't charge Biden in classified docs probe, despite evidence he 'willfully retained' materials
The diverging fates for the two presidents immediately prompted criticism from Trump, who alleged that the report highlighted a "two-tiered system of justice and unconstitutional selection prosecution."
While the similar nature of the cases is sure to become a political talking point, the stark differences in the conduct of Biden and Trump -- as well as the importance of prosecutorial discretion in national security cases -- resulted in the different results, according to both Hur's report and legal experts who spoke with ABC News.
"One of the most vague areas of national security law and enforcement of it is how to handle retention cases," said Brian Greer, a former CIA lawyer who is now a partner at Greenberg Traurig. "Frankly, retention of classified information happens way more than it should, and the government's just not going to prosecute every case."
Given the uneven enforcement of cases, Greer highlighted former FBI Director James' Comey's decision, months before the 2016 presidential election, not to chargeformer Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for unlawful transmission of classified documents on a personal device.
President Joe Biden speaks during the annual House Democrats 2024 Issues Conference, Feb. 8, 202...Show more
Getty Images
"In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts," Comey said, citing past cases involving willfulness, intentionality, disloyalty, intentional misconduct, and efforts to obstruct justice. "We do not see those things here."
Hur's report into Biden's conduct appeared to highlight the application of the same discretion, weighing Biden's conduct when he was approached by investigators about the classified documents. While Biden cooperated with investigators who searched his home and office, Trump allegedly engaged in obstructive acts and conspired with others to prevent investigators from recovering classified documents.
"There's no difference in really how they're being approached," Greer said. "If Biden had engaged in the same obstructive acts that Trump had and the same refusal to get the documents back when asked ... he would have been indicted as well."
To preempt comparisons to the Trump case, Hur's report included explicit mention of Trump's conduct compared to Biden's.
"Unlike the evidence involving Mr. Biden, the allegations set forth in the indictment of Mr. Trump, if proven, would present serious aggravating facts," the report noted. "Most notably, after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, Mr. Trump allegedly did the opposite."
The combination of Biden's conduct -- as well as concerns about proving the case beyond a reasonable doubt -- resulted in Hur recommending against charges. To prove that Biden violated the law, Hur's team would have needed to show that Biden was not authorized to possess the documents, that the documents related to the national defense, and that Biden's retention of the document was willful.
MORE: Attorney warned Trump 'it's going to be a crime' if he didn't comply with subpoena for classified docs: Sources
On the first point, the report conclusively determined that Biden was not authorized to retain the documents, despite his lawyers arguing that the president has the right to keep documents like his diaries. The report also determined that the documents related to the national defense were retained willfully.
The report noted that Biden retained some classified materials documenting his opposition to sending more troops to Afghanistan in 2009.
"Despite Mr. Biden's advice, President Obama ordered a surge of additional U.S. troops, and Mr. Biden's views endured sharp criticism from others within and outside of the administration. But he always believed history would prove him right," the report said.
Biden flagged the ghostwriter of his memoirs to the existence of classified materials in Biden's basement while he was a private citizen, and he appeared to acknowledge keeping some other classified materials.
"They didn't even know I have this," Biden told his ghostwriter in 2016 when referencing his foreign policy notebook, according to Hur's report.
MORE: 'Whatever access you need': How Biden handled early days of classified documents probe
However, investigators found scant evidence that Biden intended to do harm with the documents.
"There's no indication that then-Vice President Biden was intending to keep them for any nefarious purpose," said Robert McWhirter, a criminal and constitutional attorney. "It just seems like an oversight, where Donald Trump Trump's clearly wasn't."
Investigators also noted that many of the records found in Biden's home, at the Penn Biden Center, and at the University of Pennsylvania library "could plausibly have been brought to these locations by mistake."
"The evidence suggests that Mr. Biden did not willfully retain these documents," Hur wrote.
Combined with what Hur's report said was Biden's potential ability to portray himself as a "well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory," the report concluded that a jury would be hard pressed to find Biden guilty for a crime that relies on a "mental state of willfulness."
A defiant Biden criticized the report's findings -- explicitly comparing his conduct to Trump -- during a White House address Thursday evening.
"It was in my house," Biden said about the classified documents. Referring to Trump's Florida estate, which is also a private club, Biden said, "It wasn't out in Mar-a-Lago in a public place."
"The bottom line is the matter is now closed," Biden said while defending his conduct in comparison to Trump's.
"I did not break the law. Period," he said.
abcnews.go.com
Trump says there's a two-tiered system of justice -- but Robert Hur disagrees.
Within two months in late 2022, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed two separate special counsels to investigate the unauthorized retention of classified documents by a former and current president.
One special counsel, Jack Smith, returned with two indictments, alleging that former President Donald Trump violated the Espionage Act as a private citizen and conspired with others to obstruct justice -- charges for which he had pleaded not guilty and denied all wrongdoing.
Thirteen months after his appointment, special counsel Robert Hur on Thursday returned a report recommending against any criminal charges for President Joe Biden, despite finding what he described as ample evidence that the president willingly retained and shared highly classified information as a private citizen.
MORE: Special counsel won't charge Biden in classified docs probe, despite evidence he 'willfully retained' materials
The diverging fates for the two presidents immediately prompted criticism from Trump, who alleged that the report highlighted a "two-tiered system of justice and unconstitutional selection prosecution."
While the similar nature of the cases is sure to become a political talking point, the stark differences in the conduct of Biden and Trump -- as well as the importance of prosecutorial discretion in national security cases -- resulted in the different results, according to both Hur's report and legal experts who spoke with ABC News.
"One of the most vague areas of national security law and enforcement of it is how to handle retention cases," said Brian Greer, a former CIA lawyer who is now a partner at Greenberg Traurig. "Frankly, retention of classified information happens way more than it should, and the government's just not going to prosecute every case."
Given the uneven enforcement of cases, Greer highlighted former FBI Director James' Comey's decision, months before the 2016 presidential election, not to chargeformer Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for unlawful transmission of classified documents on a personal device.
President Joe Biden speaks during the annual House Democrats 2024 Issues Conference, Feb. 8, 202...Show more
Getty Images
"In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts," Comey said, citing past cases involving willfulness, intentionality, disloyalty, intentional misconduct, and efforts to obstruct justice. "We do not see those things here."
Hur's report into Biden's conduct appeared to highlight the application of the same discretion, weighing Biden's conduct when he was approached by investigators about the classified documents. While Biden cooperated with investigators who searched his home and office, Trump allegedly engaged in obstructive acts and conspired with others to prevent investigators from recovering classified documents.
"There's no difference in really how they're being approached," Greer said. "If Biden had engaged in the same obstructive acts that Trump had and the same refusal to get the documents back when asked ... he would have been indicted as well."
To preempt comparisons to the Trump case, Hur's report included explicit mention of Trump's conduct compared to Biden's.
"Unlike the evidence involving Mr. Biden, the allegations set forth in the indictment of Mr. Trump, if proven, would present serious aggravating facts," the report noted. "Most notably, after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, Mr. Trump allegedly did the opposite."
The combination of Biden's conduct -- as well as concerns about proving the case beyond a reasonable doubt -- resulted in Hur recommending against charges. To prove that Biden violated the law, Hur's team would have needed to show that Biden was not authorized to possess the documents, that the documents related to the national defense, and that Biden's retention of the document was willful.
MORE: Attorney warned Trump 'it's going to be a crime' if he didn't comply with subpoena for classified docs: Sources
On the first point, the report conclusively determined that Biden was not authorized to retain the documents, despite his lawyers arguing that the president has the right to keep documents like his diaries. The report also determined that the documents related to the national defense were retained willfully.
The report noted that Biden retained some classified materials documenting his opposition to sending more troops to Afghanistan in 2009.
"Despite Mr. Biden's advice, President Obama ordered a surge of additional U.S. troops, and Mr. Biden's views endured sharp criticism from others within and outside of the administration. But he always believed history would prove him right," the report said.
Biden flagged the ghostwriter of his memoirs to the existence of classified materials in Biden's basement while he was a private citizen, and he appeared to acknowledge keeping some other classified materials.
"They didn't even know I have this," Biden told his ghostwriter in 2016 when referencing his foreign policy notebook, according to Hur's report.
MORE: 'Whatever access you need': How Biden handled early days of classified documents probe
However, investigators found scant evidence that Biden intended to do harm with the documents.
"There's no indication that then-Vice President Biden was intending to keep them for any nefarious purpose," said Robert McWhirter, a criminal and constitutional attorney. "It just seems like an oversight, where Donald Trump Trump's clearly wasn't."
Investigators also noted that many of the records found in Biden's home, at the Penn Biden Center, and at the University of Pennsylvania library "could plausibly have been brought to these locations by mistake."
"The evidence suggests that Mr. Biden did not willfully retain these documents," Hur wrote.
Combined with what Hur's report said was Biden's potential ability to portray himself as a "well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory," the report concluded that a jury would be hard pressed to find Biden guilty for a crime that relies on a "mental state of willfulness."
A defiant Biden criticized the report's findings -- explicitly comparing his conduct to Trump -- during a White House address Thursday evening.
"It was in my house," Biden said about the classified documents. Referring to Trump's Florida estate, which is also a private club, Biden said, "It wasn't out in Mar-a-Lago in a public place."
"The bottom line is the matter is now closed," Biden said while defending his conduct in comparison to Trump's.
"I did not break the law. Period," he said.
Why Biden and Trump's classified documents cases aren't the same: Experts
Both Donald Trump and Joe Biden have been investigated for retaining classified documents -- but experts say the differences in their conduct led to different results.
abcnews.go.com
Why?
What makes it not "constructive"?
Why would whether or not it is swaying political opinion be part of the issue unless you think the point of this case is to affect Trump politically and not because he committed a crime?
As for going to jail, as you know I fundamentally think too many people go to jail for crimes. There are other punishments.
If he is found guilty, assigning an appropriate punishment is fine for me, it doesn't have to be jail.
Every one of the crimes he is accused of has fines as a possible punishment and since the trial judge is the person who decides, I fully expect her to keep him out of prison.
And then diverge wildly.
That's the whole point.
Completely untrue, since he isn't just charged with retaining classified documents.
He is charged with his additional behavior in response to the issue of the documents.
Do you honestly think obstruction of justice isn't a problem?
That can't be what you meant by that.
I laid out why I don't think there is useful and compelling purpose for the DOJ to be pursuing these cases against a former POTUS and Presidential candidate during an election year. Of course, that's not saying he didn't violate the law and seek confrontation with the DOJ. I'm just looking at the realistic outcomes along with the money and effort that will be expended to reach those outcomes.
Everyone knows Trump will take on the FBI, the DOJ, etc. for no other reason than politics. The prosecutor inadvertently plays into that drama.
It's just an opinion.
I don't think you can take the politics out of this case during a Presidential election year.
Trump seems to want this battle with the DOJ. Is the DOJ looking for a way to stay out of court? Again, it's just my opinion they should. Hell, Trump might still say see you in court.
Top shelf sources!
Jesse Watters, Fox News, Newmax, MIke Johnson and Mitch!
Made it ma! Top of the world! - Mitch Von MAGA
The question though is should an Ex POTUS or a candidate running for Prez be above the law? So let's say they do nothing because he is a candatiate and he or she wins, then what? He or she gets at least 4 years of being above the law?
Do you agree with Trump that he as President is untouchable?
No, but I think there are practical limits to pursuing political candidates especially a former President. If the documents case isn't really moving public opinion, you might say it doesn't matter what public opinion is he broke the law. On the other hand, one can say public opinion is the biggest jury in the world.
I thought Hillary should have been hit with a fine, but Comey did a little dance in 2016 that didn't make either side happy. I would have to say that Biden should have been hit with a fine. Remember they were in junior roles to the President of the United States. They had less authority over how they handled classified documents.
I know people like yourself have continued to look for the "big crime". I'm sorry I don't see it in the documents case. I'm not sure others are going to be persuaded to see it. If Trump wasn't running for office, I wouldn't care what the DOJ did with this case.
The biggest difference in the document case is both Biden and Pence totally cooperated in the investigation and turned in the documents. As a matter of fact it was Joe's personal attorney who found them and instead of Joe keeping the lid on it, they came forward. Trump on the other hand fought tooth and nail because he believed he could make money hanging on to them. SO yes, he deserves to be charged. Why do you not see the left or any DOJ screaming Pence also just a VP should be charged? He too fully co operated as he should. Trump believes he is above the law and needs to good solid old fashion bitch slapping.
Hillary had been found to not be acting with Criminal intent. Trump was in charge, why didn't he have Bill Barr go after her? Hmmmm, probably because all other DOJ's said they cannot get a conviction.
I have stated what I think should happen and what will likely happen.
The outcome will likely be unsatisfactory to you and several others. That I cannot control. I don't even have to defend what happens. There is nothing either of us can do about it.
I agree with you that neither of us will not have a say either way but I disagree with you on the outcome. The only chance he has is to stall and hope that he can actually win in a general election so he can move on to be the dictator in chief as he aspires to.
