Arab Zionism. Hamas/Hezbollah/Palestinians (some, not all)

[shack]

I thought that this might be an interesting topic to discuss, civilly, of course.

I don't see much of a difference, especially if using the criteria of our resident KKK.

1)They want to drive the Jews out of Israel and reclaim the land because they consider it their historical birthright. It's the same piece of land they want.
2)They have no compunction in using violence because their cause justifies it.
3)They are ultra-religious
4)They will resort to ethnic cleansing (as has been done in other Arab countries) and genocide.
5)They want it be a religious/Muslim state, not a secular one.

If somebody hates Zionists and not the particular religion that they belong to, is there any difference what that religion is? They want the same land, use the same justifications and resort to similar tactics to achieve their purpose.

A rose by any other name....

 

[mandrill]

Differences:

Muslim extremists aren't fixated on 1 piece of land. They're more concerned with exterminating unbelievers in general.

Muslim extremists also kill co-religionists if they don't believe in the same version of their faith.

Muslim extremists fights civil wars with other Muslims (See above).

Muslim extremists have regressive policies against women and gays.

Muslims do not believe in democracy and their variants are either conservative state-authoritarianism (Syria, Jordan, Egypt) or theocratic authoritarianism (Iran, Hooties, ISIS. AQ, Hezbollah, Hamas) or a combination (Erdogan's Turkey).

Muslim extremists rely on the "mass mobilization" method of controlling society. Spying at the neighbourhood level. Forced attendance at government mandated events. Coercion including abduction, torture, gang rape and public execution and display of bodies. Indoctrination in the regime's "mission" - i.e. genocide of Jews, Shia / Sunni opposition / Christians - from a young age and throughout life. Creation of armed thug militias to terrorize the population and keep it submissive.

Zionists might have views on seizing Arab land that few support in the West, but are generally reasonably close to other western values on morals and democratic participation.

 

[Frankfooter]

Differences:

Muslim extremists aren't fixated on 1 piece of land. They're more concerned with exterminating unbelievers in general.

Muslim extremists also kill co-religionists if they don't believe in the same version of their faith.

Muslim extremists fights civil wars with other Muslims (See above).

Muslim extremists have regressive policies against women and gays.

Muslims do not believe in democracy and their variants are either conservative state-authoritarianism (Syria, Jordan, Egypt) or theocratic authoritarianism (Iran, Hooties, ISIS. AQ, Hezbollah, Hamas) or a combination (Erdogan's Turkey).

Muslim extremists rely on the "mass mobilization" method of controlling society. Spying at the neighbourhood level. Forced attendance at government mandated events. Coercion including abduction, torture, gang rape and public execution and display of bodies. Indoctrination in the regime's "mission" - i.e. genocide of Jews, Shia / Sunni opposition / Christians - from a young age and throughout life. Creation of armed thug militias to terrorize the population and keep it submissive.

Zionists might have views on seizing Arab land that few support in the West, but are generally reasonably close to other western values on morals and democratic participation.

In these times you always need to cite references to your work in order to avoid accusations of plagiarism.
For instance, its clear you should have cited:
Veltman - A White Awakening

 

[mandrill]

In these times you always need to cite references to your work in order to avoid accusations of plagiarism.
For instance, its clear you should have cited:
Veltman - A White Awakening

Frankie, stop with the allegations of racism and try and cite some facts to prove me wrong.

I am simply reciting stuff I have read about the politics of the Arab world. It all appears very heavily supported by very obvious facts.

Is it racist for me to claim that Iran is a theocracy?.....

You just cannot discuss these issues like a thoughtful adult.

 

[Frankfooter]

Frankie, stop with the allegations of racism and try and cite some facts to prove me wrong.

I am simply reciting stuff I have read about the politics of the Arab world. It all appears very heavily supported by very obvious facts.

Is it racist for me to claim that Iran is a theocracy?.....

You just cannot discuss these issues like a thoughtful adult.

'Just reciting stuff you read on the internet'.

After 9/11 the board was full of these kinds of posts, mandrill. They eventually went away after years of the GWOT and its total failure to do anything but make failed states. The types of stereotypes you push are just as bad, only you use them to defend genocide, taking it way further.

Muslims are just people, Palestinians are just people, Jews are just people. Sometimes they fall prey to despots feeding them hate and anger, like the H guy, trump and Netanyahu. But its not because of their race or religion.

I don't know when you started to go all Veltman, but you really need to wake up.

Muslims do not believe in democracy

Israel is apartheid, its not a democracy.

Muslim extremists also kill co-religionists if they don't believe in the same version of their faith.

Israel has been killing Christians along with Palestinians. Palestinians get along fine with Christians.

Muslim extremists aren't fixated on 1 piece of land. They're more concerned with exterminating unbelievers in general.

The recent genocides in history have been at the hands of Germans and Europeans largely, along with the North American indigenous genocide.
Colonialists, largely.

Creation of armed thug militias to terrorize the population and keep it submissive.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/middleeast/huwara-west-bank-settler-attack-cmd-intl/index.html

 

[shack]

Differences:

Muslim extremists aren't fixated on 1 piece of land. They're more concerned with exterminating unbelievers in general.

Muslim extremists also kill co-religionists if they don't believe in the same version of their faith.

Muslim extremists fights civil wars with other Muslims (See above).

Muslim extremists have regressive policies against women and gays.

Muslims do not believe in democracy and their variants are either conservative state-authoritarianism (Syria, Jordan, Egypt) or theocratic authoritarianism (Iran, Hooties, ISIS. AQ, Hezbollah, Hamas) or a combination (Erdogan's Turkey).

Muslim extremists rely on the "mass mobilization" method of controlling society. Spying at the neighbourhood level. Forced attendance at government mandated events. Coercion including abduction, torture, gang rape and public execution and display of bodies. Indoctrination in the regime's "mission" - i.e. genocide of Jews, Shia / Sunni opposition / Christians - from a young age and throughout life. Creation of armed thug militias to terrorize the population and keep it submissive.

Zionists might have views on seizing Arab land that few support in the West, but are generally reasonably close to other western values on morals and democratic participation.

According to people like frank, Israeli Zionists, are the worst people in the world.

As such, I tried to keep my points more focussed on this current conflict and the perceived grievances that frank has, such that he can relate. Some of things I mentioned, I do not actually believe are tenets of Zionism even though he does, so I was trying to paint a worse picture by including them and wondering if he would own up to the comparison and even to the concept there what he wants is indeed an Arab Zionism.

I can't really argue with the differences you have listed, but more so for the purposes of wondering if he had the ability or guts to look in a mirror, and admit that what he wants seems very similar to what he accuses Zionists (although we really know that it's just Jews) of wanting, I tried to find the similarities, not the differences.

I think that this will be another case of frank being afraid to give a direct answer/comparison and instead go on a rant, complaining about all the things he's been complaining about since forever, since the "15, oops, 10 commandments" (racism, colonialism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, killing 14,972 children, killing journalists and our support of all those things), give us more anti-Semitic hate speech tropes, post a few dozens unrelated doctored tweets, call me a racist old man and then go hide under the covers like the disingenuous, hypocritical coward that he's shown us he is. But he will not give a direct answer.

He will not engage in this discussion because it will be admitting that what Zionists want and what they are willing to do to get it, is not any worse that what he wants and how they should be attained.

The idea crossed my mind as I was in the middle of replying to another post of his. It seemed to me that there were so many similarities, especially as it relates to Israel, the the concept of Arab Zionism is a very real and valid concept.

As we all know, EVERYBODY HATES ZIONISTS. THEY ARE THE NEW NAZIS.

 

[mandrill]

'Just reciting stuff you read on the internet'.

After 9/11 the board was full of these kinds of posts, mandrill. They eventually went away after years of the GWOT and its total failure to do anything but make failed states. The types of stereotypes you push are just as bad, only you use them to defend genocide, taking it way further.

Muslims are just people, Palestinians are just people, Jews are just people. Sometimes they fall prey to despots feeding them hate and anger, like the H guy, trump and Netanyahu. But its not because of their race or religion.

I don't know when you started to go all Veltman, but you really need to wake up.

Let's do it this way. People in different regions have different ideas and opt for different solutions to society's perceived problems. Folks in a small town in Alabama have different ideas to folks in San Francisco and opt for different policies.

Arab states do not have a long history of democracy like the west, nor do they have the west's established democratic institutions. Nor do they have the west's 200 years tradition of secular thought. Hence their solutions tend to be non democratic, authoritarian and religiously based. This doesn't mean they're worse or better people than a Torontonian. It means they have different ideas.

This isn't racism. It's MENA HIS 101. Prove me wrong. Point to a successful non authoritarian ME state?... I'll wait.

Now point to a successful western democracy?..... About 20 or 30 examples, right? There you go.

Israel is apartheid, its not a democracy.

Israel holds regular elections and incorporates Muslims into its democratic and judicial structure. Case closed.

Israel has been killing Christians along with Palestinians. Palestinians get along fine with Christians.

Only in your head.

The recent genocides in history have been at the hands of Germans and Europeans largely, along with the North American indigenous genocide.
Colonialists, largely.

Yes. And that AH guy was bad.

Don't start on the indigenous people. That's a totally different subject. It happened 200 - 400 years ago.

 

[Frankfooter]

According to people like frank, Israeli Zionists, are the worst people in the world.

As such, I tried to keep my points more focussed on this current conflict and the perceived grievances that frank has, such that he can relate. Some of things I mentioned, I do not actually believe are tenets of Zionism even though he does, so I was trying to paint a worse picture by including them and wondering if he would own up to the comparison and even to the concept there what he wants is indeed an Arab Zionism.

I can't really argue with the differences you have listed, but more so for the purposes of wondering if he had the ability or guts to look in a mirror, and admit that what he wants seems very similar to what he accuses Zionists (although we really know that it's just Jews) of wanting, I tried to find the similarities, not the differences.

I think that this will be another case of frank being afraid to give a direct answer/comparison and instead go on a rant, complaining about all the things he's been complaining about since forever, since the "15, oops, 10 commandments" (racism, colonialism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, killing 14,972 children, killing journalists and our support of all those things), give us more anti-Semitic hate speech tropes, post a few dozens unrelated doctored tweets, call me a racist old man and then go hide under the covers like the disingenuous, hypocritical coward that he's shown us he is. But he will not give a direct answer.

He will not engage in this discussion because it will be admitting that what Zionists want and what they are willing to do to get it, is not any worse that what he wants and how they should be attained.

The idea crossed my mind as I was in the middle of replying to another post of his. It seemed to me that there were so many similarities, especially as it relates to Israel, the the concept of Arab Zionism is a very real and valid concept.

There is no such thing as Arab Zionism.
Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine, its not a foreign colonial movement.

As we all know, EVERYBODY HATES ZIONISTS. THEY ARE THE NEW NAZIS.

Thanks for a good rebuttal quote should you continue on with your missed point quote.

 

[mandrill]

There is no such thing as Arab Zionism.
Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine, its not a foreign colonial movement.

Frankie, in 1916 the population of Palestine was 700,000 Arabs - Muslim, Christian and Jewish. Now the population is about 10M.

Seems to me that there was enough room for everyone.

Sort of like saying that the white man doesn't belong in Ontario because in 1750 it was inhabited by 20k or 30k Hurons.

 

[Frankfooter]

Let's do it this way. People in different regions have different ideas and opt for different solutions to society's perceived problems. Folks in a small town in Alabama have different ideas to folks in San Francisco and opt for different policies.

People used to argue that there was a genetic basis to racism, but the genetics show there is more diversity within any one group than identifying features. Same with attitudes. If you take a smaller sample size you'll still see a diverse range of views.

Arab states do not have a long history of democracy like the west, nor do they have the west's established democratic institutions. Nor do they have the west's 200 years tradition of secular thought. Hence their solutions tend to be non democratic, authoritarian and religiously based. This doesn't mean they're worse or better people than a Torontonian. It means they have different ideas.

This isn't racism. It's MENA HIS 101. Prove me wrong. Point to a successful non authoritarian ME state?... I'll wait.

Iran was a democracy until 1953 when they tried to nationalize their oil and the US/UK supported a coup that put the theocrats in power. Lebanon was a very diverse and fairly successful democracy, the Paris of the middle east, until invasions by Israel created the Hezbollah resistance and Palestinian refugees became more militant. Iraq was autocratic, but ran successfully until the US backed Saddam and an attack on Iran. Egypt has always teetered between corrupt politicians and military leaders, who were more trusted. Turkey was quite democratic though Erdogan has become more rump like. Tunisia, Morocco, all have had turns.

Now point to a successful western democracy?..... About 20 or 30 examples, right? There you go.

These days you have to go to northern EU states, the UK and US are having serious issues. Canada is ok but suffering from housing/inequality.
You confuse democratic success with end state capitalism, where you see the US as a success despite electing people who answer only to lobbyists and corporate interests rule over citizens.

Israel holds regular elections and incorporates Muslims into its democratic and judicial structure. Case closed.

Israel is apartheid and rules through 3 levels of apartheid, as documented multiple times here.
Its not democratic, you can't be apartheid and democratic.
Israel chose to be a Jewish state over democracy.

Don't start on the indigenous people. That's a totally different subject. It happened 200 - 400 years ago.

C'mon mandrill, Israel is likely about as old as you are.
You must remember.

 

[Frankfooter]

Frankie, in 1916 the population of Palestine was 700,000 Arabs - Muslim, Christian and Jewish. Now the population is about 10M.

Seems to me that there was enough room for everyone.

Sort of like saying that the white man doesn't belong in Ontario because in 1750 it was inhabited by 20k or 30k Hurons.

Palestine was only about 10% Jewish.
Seems to me that Germany should have had to pay the price of the holocaust, not Palestine.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745930643949724048

 

[Leimonis]

Frankie, in 1916 the population of Palestine was 700,000 Arabs - Muslim, Christian and Jewish. Now the population is about 10M.

Seems to me that there was enough room for everyone.

Sort of like saying that the white man doesn't belong in Ontario because in 1750 it was inhabited by 20k or 30k Hurons.

it's almost like hurons at some point chose to live a life rather than proudly continue an idiotic fighting

 

[Mena Mahan]

I thought that this might be an interesting topic to discuss, civilly, of course.

I don't see much of a difference, especially if using the criteria of our resident KKK.

1)They want to drive the Jews out of Israel and reclaim the land because they consider it their historical birthright. It's the same piece of land they want.
2)They have no compunction in using violence because their cause justifies it.
3)They are ultra-religious
4)They will resort to ethnic cleansing (as has been done in other Arab countries) and genocide.
5)They want it be a religious/Muslim state, not a secular one.

If somebody hates Zionists and not the particular religion that they belong to, is there any difference what that religion is? They want the same land, use the same justifications and resort to similar tactics to achieve their purpose.

A rose by any other name....

You are completely misunderstanding what Zionism means my dude...

If anyone is looking like the KKK its the Israeli government.

And before you try and call me antisemitic, I am a Jew.

 

[Leimonis]

You are completely misunderstanding what Zionism means my dude...

If anyone is looking like the KKK its the Israeli government.

And before you try and call me antisemitic, I am a Jew.

Self-hating Jew - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Mena Mahan]

Self-hating Jew - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Zionism is against the Torah. Jews are a diaspera and are not supposed to return to Israel until the messiah comes as the messiah has not come we have no reason to be there.

Before you start calling jews who have studied the torah their entire lives self-hating Jews because they dont agree with genociding children and babies.....maybe read the holy book of the people you think you are supporting.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2535683

 

[Leimonis]

Zionism is against the Torah. Jews are a diaspera and are not supposed to return to Israel until the messiah comes as the messiah has not come we have no reason to be there.

Before you start calling jews who have studied the torah their entire lives self-hating Jews because they dont agree with genociding children and babies.....maybe read the holy book of the people you think you are supporting.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2535683

so what's your plan for Israelis if "children and babies" get their Palestine from the river to the sea? Should they lose their state, leave Palestine, join diaspora and wait for messiah?

 

[canada-man]

You are completely misunderstanding what Zionism means my dude...

If anyone is looking like the KKK its the Israeli government.

And before you try and call me antisemitic, I am a Jew.

are you aware that Israel has sharia law for muslim residence for domestic and family issues?

are you aware of Arab Israelis living and thriving in Israel?

can yu explain why nobody called for a palestinian state between 1949 and 1967 when the west bank was part of Jordan the Gaza was part of egypt?

are you aware it was the soviet union/KGB with the help of muslim brotherhood created the Palestinian movement to wage anti-israel wars and propaganda?

the same soviet/kgb types invent the claim of zionism is racism and israei apartheid


every wonder why the so called palestinian movement is filled with anti-jewish and terror supporting types?

 

[Frankfooter]

The word they have reserved for you is that you are a self-hating Jew. Or an auto-antisemite. They used 100% of their brain and thought of everything.

The words I have for them is that they are Jew haters.
They try to project their own hate on them by saying they are 'self hating' but its them doing the hating.

 

[shack]

Muslims are just people, Palestinians are just people, Jews are just people. Sometimes they fall prey to despots feeding them hate and anger, like the H guy, trump and Netanyahu. But its not because of their race or religion.

Yet it is never anyone other than the Jews that you demonize and only post tweets that paint Israel in a bad light. Why do never post tweets about these "bad Palestinians or bad Muslims"? It's always just the Jews. You only post about Pali injuries, never Jewish ones.

The words you use to try to show us your even-handedness are at best hollow and at worst big, fat cowardly lies about yourself.

And you live on those stolen lands.

frank, you are THE perfect definition of someone who supports Arab Zionism.

 

[shack]

There is no such thing as Arab Zionism.

If they have the same goals and policies then both are Zionists.

They both want the land that is Israel.
They both claim a historical birthright/indigenous people to that land.
They both have a religious basis.
They are both willing to use force
They both are willing to commit ethnic cleansing/genocide (the Hamas charter--river to the sea)

They have been, are and will continue to have the same goals.

Please tell us how 2 things that basically have identical descriptions are not the same. It just now has a proper and accurate name.