Pickering Angels

Israel at war

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Summary

Israel needs to abandon the idea of eliminating Hamas; it cannot be done. Instead it should focus on reducing support for Hamas from Palestinians and other nations, and increase support to enable better sanctioning of nations and groups that support Hamas.

To do that, Israel should first end the war, and then try things it has never done before. Namely ending all illegal settlements, recalling all settlers, return all occupied territories, provide aid and relief to all areas that suffered their illegal occupations, recognize Palestinian return to life, security and self-determinism. It should do this without conditions or demands on anyone else.

I think there is near zero chance of Israel doing that. But I think it's the only chance Israel has to live in some semblance of peace with minimal loss of life and maximum support when something does happen.

I know many will say this will just make Israel a target. I don't see how it makes them any more of as target than they already are. Some will see it makes them look weak, I say it will make them look like compassionate, understanding people. Some will say they've already tried this, but everytime Israel said they'd do anything like this it was tied to conditions of someone else going first and also they actively broke their promises and violated their proposal before, during, and after negotiations.

Israel has to act first in good faith. Not because Hamas has acted on good faith, but because Hamas are terrorists and it's foolish to ask them to do anything good. But Israel needs international support to secure itself as much as possible, and to do that it needs to redeem itself on the world stage.

That's what I think should happen. It's not a solution, it doesn't end violence or guarantee no Israelis will ever die to terrorism, but it's the only chance they have in my opinion.

Flame away.
Thanks for this.
I think the one issue I have with it is the turn back to the two-state solution.
I don't think that is viable with no one on either side wanting to push for it anymore.
There either needs to be a way of cultivating a new interest in legitimately giving it a chance, or there needs to be some one-state solution proposed (with all the issues that brings as well).
Right now, I see the latter as having more of a chance because it seems no one on either side is willing to seriously engage in the two state answer anymore.
 
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Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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It isn't about what I think would happen.
It is about you saying that you wanted no quarter given.
That has a meaning, and it means they can't surrender, you have promised to just kill them all no matter what.
That doesn't mean "hang them after a fair trial" either.

Not sure why you're changing your tune now, but anything that means you are backing off the "all war crimes all the time" attitude of yours is good.



Well, that sounds like we're back to "War crimes are easier, let's do that".
So much for my brief moment of hope for you.



That says a hell of a lot about you, doesn't it?



No. And why do you think that's the only way not to commit war crimes?
You really are going out of your way to say that the only proper way to win a war is by committing war crimes and that's just the right thing to do.
You're way out here out-hawking Hilary, hell, you may be out-hawking the Cheneys at this point.



Ahh.
"We need to commit war crimes because otherwise we are fighting with one hand behind our back."

Nice.

So are there any war crimes you are against?
Just curious.
Still avoiding things. You have no solution in mind other than generic bleatings that have no substance. Unless you can show me leadership on both sides that can be trusted to make and keep a peace deal then my point stands.

Neither side wants peace, and will stay at each others throats. There won't be a two state solution, a one state solution, or even the present status quo. In the long run there will only be a winner.

So pick a side, whine about the unfairness of it all, or be indifferent. Honestly I just don't care. You are a nobody on poo er board thinking you somehow carry weight or can affect the outcome. You can't.

I understand the inevitable outcome of a religious war in the Holy Land.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
31,976
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Butler.
Pointing out that not getting younger's argument is different from the one you are making isn't "talking out of both sides of my mouth".
It's pointing out that you and he are making different arguments.
The fact you think nuance of language is the most important point as opposed to the actual players events, history, shows how little you undsrstand.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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The fact you think nuance of language is the most important point as opposed to the actual players events, history, shows how little you undsrstand.
I don't think it is the most important point.
I was pointing out you and he aren't actually making the same argument.

Just like "this person is dead, there is nothing we can do about it now" isn't the same argument as "That person deserved to die, and I'm really glad I killed him".
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
36,249
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Still avoiding things. You have no solution in mind other than generic bleatings that have no substance. Unless you can show me leadership on both sides that can be trusted to make and keep a peace deal then my point stands.
Yes.
You've made it very clear.
Unless someone has a peace deal on the table that you think will work, the only solution is war crimes, which you enthusiastically support.

That's very fucked up, which is my point.
Even many of the people here who are most stridently in favor of Israel's current actions aren't saying that "what is really needed are war crimes, because they don't count against Hamas or Gaza anyway, and also they are just the realistic best way to get what I want".

That you think pointing out I don't have a solution that magically fixes everything means I should just agree with you that war crimes are good is also not a great look on you.

Neither side wants peace, and will stay at each others throats. There won't be a two state solution, a one state solution, or even the present status quo. In the long run there will only be a winner.

So pick a side, whine about the unfairness of it all, or be indifferent. Honestly I just don't care. You are a nobody on poo er board thinking you somehow carry weight or can affect the outcome. You can't.

I understand the inevitable outcome of a religious war in the Holy Land.
So since for you this is all about how there can only be one winner, do you not even care which side wins?
You just want to encourage both sides to commit as many war crimes as possible to win so that things end more quickly?
Morality doesn't matter, just power, so you just want to see who has enough power to win and that's who you will support?
 

shapeup1

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2002
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Canada
Cowards, they'll fight and kill children and civilians but scurry like rats when they have to fight soldiers. Ambulances are for wounded palestinian civilians not Islamic terrorists.

Hamas tried to send fighters to Egypt in ambulances for wounded Gazans — US official

Israeli officials say inspectors uncovered oxygen concentrators for tunnels used by Palestinian terror groups inside truck carrying aid to Strip
Hamas tried to sneak its fighters out of the Gaza Strip in ambulances that evacuated dozens of wounded Palestinians to Egypt earlier this week, a senior Biden administration official said Friday.

Hamas had compiled a list of the seriously wounded that it wanted to evacuate from Gaza for treatment in Egypt, along with thousands of foreign nationals looking to flee the enclave.
The list was then vetted by Egypt and the United States, which found that a third of the names on it were of Hamas fighters, the administration official said, adding that the list was rejected and none of the 76 wounded Palestinians who were ultimately evacuated in ambulances out of Gaza were members of the terror group.

Meanwhile, two senior Israeli officials told The Times of Israel that Israeli inspectors earlier this week uncovered, hidden in an aid truck, several oxygen concentrators meant to aerate the tunnels operated by terror organizations in Gaza.

“These weren’t for use in the hospitals, but below them. That’s why they were smuggled among boxes of cookies,” one of the senior Israeli officials said, adding that the entire truck in which the oxygen concentrators were found was barred from entering Gaza.

 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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There is no reason to talk about Hamas because we already agree.
It is still part of the conversation and not to be ignored.

they could have considered covert operations.
How many Hamas are there? How long would that take? Gazans don't want Israeli soldiers in there and Israel doesn't want them there either. It is best to get rid of as many Hamas as quickly as possible.

Could you please describe these covert operations? How would they work?

Or they may have chosen to respond diplomatically to end the conflict once and for all.
It's been tried over and over and never works. How can there be a diplomatic solution when one side denies the other's right to exist.

They chose the carpet bombing and that is a war crime that needs to be called out.
It's war. War is hell. There will be a time when. Israel can be judged. Right now it's a question of survival. Israel may have evidence/intelligence to justify what they are doing and why. Showing all their cards now may be jeopardizing what they are deriving from there intelligence. We don't know.

Blame here cannot be shifted to Hamas in an attempt to absolve Israel's wrongdoing.
The vast majority of the blame lies with Hamas for triggering the attack that lead to Israel's expense and then using Gazans as shields for PR purposes, not allowing Gazans to leave the most dangerous areas. They forced Israel's hand into doing what they're doing. I'm not totally absolving Israel. I'm mostly blaming Hamas.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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I'm sorry, what?
There is no evidence that Hamas is using anyone as human shields.
None.

Only IDF claims, like this one where they tried to justify targeting an ambulance by saying it was Hamas without being able to name or identify who you thought it was. The IDF uses it to retroactively justify all destruction of civilian targets.

 
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Frankfooter

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