Israel at war

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shack

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Frankfooter said:
Its apartheid, buddy.
You've already admitted its apartheid and did so again by noting that Israel won't give citizenship
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How can they give citizenship to people who do not live within their borders. Israel has never claimed that Gaza is part of the state of Israel.

Would you be happy if Israel claimed that they now own Gaza? That way they could confer citizenship.

Your arguments have so many holes in them they look like fishnet stockings.
 
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mitchell76

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Kautilya said:
Apartheid has nothing to do with citizenship.

Crime of apartheid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".
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Who cares??
 
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Phil C. McNasty

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Kautilya said:
There are also no human shields
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Bullshit! Why do you think IDF is sometimes forced to hit hospitals or refugee camps?? If there were no Hamas hiding there there'd be no reason to bomb those places, because it only works in Hamas favor when it comes to worldwide public sentiment.

That refugee bombing supposedly took out a Hamas commander and 25 or so of his loser buddies.
I say its unfortunate for the dead kids, but its ultimately Hamas fault
 
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shack

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Frankfooter said:
No, your celebration of this kind of thing sets the bar way lower.
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What celebration? I've never applauded a single death.

All I've done is to show that all the death and suffering of Gazans that you are complaining about in the last 4 weeks, would not have happened if Hamas had not launched the attack on Oct. 7. Explaining what has triggered this is not celebrating it.
 
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Conil

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Hamas needs the fuel to build rockets

Hamas hoarding more than half a million litres of fuel under Gaza hospital: IDF

The IDF also revealed an intercepted call showing that the terror group is stealing fuel from hospitals in the enclave

The Israel Defense Forces released on Friday a recording of a call in which a Gaza health official confirms that Hamas is hoarding fuel and has stored more than half a million litres (over 132,000 gallons) under the Shifa Hospital.

“Hamas controls the diesel,” the health official says in the recording.

“My friend, let’s not talk about Shifa. May God curse Shifa, the health official replies.

The officer then notes that Israel could provide fuel for Shifa, “but if I bring [fuel] to the hospital right now, they [Hamas] will take it. Don’t you agree with me?”

“My friend, you are completely right,” says the health official.

The Palestinian then suggests that Hamas has stashed away more than 1 million liters of fuel underground.

“The call confirms that Hamas controls the energy and fuel resources in the Gaza Strip and chooses to direct them for terrorism,” the IDF said in a statement. “Moreover, if fuel is allowed to enter the Gaza Strip, Hamas plans to seize those resources.

“The IDF will continue to expose information proving that Hamas uses the resources of the civilian population of Gaza for terrorism,” added the military.

The IDF on Wednesday also revealed an intercepted call between Hamas commanders in the Gaza Strip showing that the terror group is stealing fuel from hospitals in the enclave.

The Shifa Hospital, located in the North Rimal neighborhood, has 570 beds and is Gaza’s largest medical center.

nationalpost.com

Hamas hoarding more than half a million litres of fuel under Gaza hospital: IDF

The IDF also revealed an intercepted call showing that the terror group is stealing fuel from hospitals in the enclave
nationalpost.com nationalpost.com
 
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DinkleMouse

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shack said:
There was no proportionality in WWII. Way more Japanese died than Americans. The same with Germany. Were the Americans charged with war crimes?

At the end of a war where there is a winner and loser there is always disproportionality. It is what it is.
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Yes. Which is why in the wake of WWII the rules were solidified and clarified. In 1949, to be exact. So no, the Americans were not changed with crimes that didn't exist until 4 or more years later.

I'm also pretty sure, based on this reply, that you haven't read any of the posts where I explained how proportional proportionality works. It isn't able comparing the deaths of 2 different nations. It has to do with demonstrating there was a specific military objective and that the strategic value gained from achieving that objective exceeded the loss of civilian lives.

So if, for example, Hitler was in a hospital, and he Geneva conventions and Rome statute had existed at the time, and there was every reason to believe the German Army would surrender in he event of Hitler's death, one could probably be satisfied that proportional proportionality was met. The objective was German surrender, there was a reasonable expectation the objective would be achieved, and the strategic advantage gained from that would be offset by the loss of life. On the other hand, if the only Nazi in the hospital is General Walter Model, an ok general but not sometime of particular strategic or tactical cunning, it would be difficult to prove proportional proportionality especially since his death doesn't have a precise objective.

For a real life example, the US military observed limousines coming and going from a bomb shelter in Iraq. It determined this bomb shelter was being used as a command and control facility. Military intelligence ascertained the facility could house up to 2000 people but only had about 400 in it. The US bombed it with a bunker buster and claim a number of active missions were hampered as a result. Clear objective, known civilian numbers. Proportional proportionality analysis conducted. And yes, the US was investigated for war crimes for that.
 
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shack

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mitchell76 said:
Who cares??
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Actually, it's important to discuss citizenship.

S. Africa introduced laws that discriminated against their own citizens and they named it Apartheid.

They defined what apartheid meant. They set the standards.

From Britannica:

Apartheid, (Afrikaans: “apartness”) policy that governed relations between South Africa’s white minority and nonwhite majority for much of the latter half of the 20th century, sanctioning racial segregation and political and economic discrimination against nonwhites. Although the legislation that formed the foundation of apartheid had been repealed by the early 1990s, the social and economic repercussions of the discriminatory policy persisted into the 21st century.

Blacks were stripped of their South African citizenship and thereby excluded from the South African body politic.

The policy of apartheid only dealt with citizens, so to say Israel is practising apartheid is totally false and is used to trigger people to turn popular opinion against Israel.
 
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shack

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Kautilya said:
Apartheid means racial segregation. They dont have to be citizens.
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Wrong again.

Actually, it's important to discuss citizenship.

S. Africa introduced laws that discriminated against their own citizens and they named it Apartheid.

They defined what apartheid meant. They set the standards.

From Britannica:

Apartheid, (Afrikaans: “apartness”) policy that governed relations between South Africa’s white minority and nonwhite majority for much of the latter half of the 20th century, sanctioning racial segregation and political and economic discrimination against nonwhites. Although the legislation that formed the foundation of apartheid had been repealed by the early 1990s, the social and economic repercussions of the discriminatory policy persisted into the 21st century.

Blacks were stripped of their South African citizenship and thereby excluded from the South African body politic.

The policy of apartheid only dealt with citizens, so to say Israel is practising apartheid is totally false and is only used to trigger people to turn popular opinion against Israel.
 
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DinkleMouse

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Butler1000 said:
Soldiers. In uniform. So no, it isn't a suicide bomber in a cafe.
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Do I need to remind you what you said?

Butler1000 said:
We celebrate a person, who throws themselves on the grenade, or dives into the water to save a life. The firefighter running into the burning building.



We don't celebrate suicide bombers, or mass shooters. The difference is clear. One runs in to save life, the other to take it.
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Lt John R. Fox did not "run in to save life". He committed suicide with a bomb to kill the enemy. I never mentioned a cafe, neither did you, so why you bring it up now I don't know.

You can't just keep moving the goalposts. Admit it: we do celebrate people who kill the enemy. And there's nothing wrong with that. But it's ridiculous to pretend we don't.
 
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DinkleMouse

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shack said:
Using civilians as shields is a war crime and it precedes a bullet being fired or a bomb being dropped.

Hamas thought that doing that would help them be protected, because they are cowards. Israel is calling their bluff. Hamas is sacrificing their people at every turn. And the people of Gaza are coming to that realization.
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It's not a bluff. It would only be a bluff if there were no human shields. But it's known that shitty people do this. There's why the rules of war exist as they do. They are there to protect civilians.

Hamas are guilty of war crimes for using human shields (asking a half dozen other things). If Israel kills the human shields without establishing proportionality, Israel is committed a war crime.

A lot of people keep saying it isn't... Being on Israel's side doesn't change the law. You can't wish it into being lawful. It's a simple fact that knowingly killingly civilians, even if your enemy are war criminals using them as human shields, is a war crime.
 
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