The Dark Side of Roger Waters

[Frankfooter]

You have no right to complain about what's happening. You endorsed the attack knowing full-well that there would be strong reprisals. Ergo, you endorse the consequences of the reprisals. You can't have it both ways.

I endorse BDS, not violence.

But every day I have to counter your racism, which is so typical of all the zionists. You argue 'Israel has the right to defend themselves' as a tacit admission of your racist, apartheid views. Every time that is said its an admission that you don't think Palestinians have the same rights because you think they 'human animals' as the president of Israel said. So every day I must counter and state that legally Palestinians have the right to self defence from an illegal occupation, apartheid rule and blockade. While Israel, as the occupying power, cannot claim self defence to land that isn't theirs.

 

[shack]

I endorse BDS, not violence.

In that case, specifically condemn the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israeli civilians.

 

[Frankfooter]

In that case, specifically condemn the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israeli civilians.

That's twice today!
You must be feeling quite chipper after all the civilians Israel killed yesterday.

https://terb.cc/xenforo/threads/the-dark-side-of-roger-waters.829457/post-8127425

You still have never condemned the occupation, apartheid, blockade, state terrorism, targeting civilians and crap from the extremist right wing government you love.

 

[shack]

That's twice today!
You must be feeling quite chipper after all the civilians Israel killed yesterday.

And twice, as an avowed anti-terrorist advocate, you cannot make a simple declaration regarding an obvious terror attack.

I guess I'll keep asking and you'll keep proving my point.

 

[Frankfooter]

And twice, as an avowed anti-terrorist advocate, you cannot make a simple declaration regarding an obvious terror attack.

I guess I'll keep asking and you'll keep proving my point.

Shack, have you ever stated whether you believe Palestinians are humans that deserve full human rights?
I'll keep asking until you answer, because we both know the answer you would give if you weren't a coward.

 

[shack]

Shack, have you ever stated whether you believe Palestinians are humans that deserve full human rights?

I don't remember if I did state that, but if you ask the question about Palestinians again I can give a straight yes or no answer to that question with nothing added, that is, "a one word post" if you can do the same to my question of "Will you condemn the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israeli citizens as a terrorist attack." Your answer must be a yes or a no and nothing else. A one word post.

If you agree, I will even go 1st.

If you agree, go ahead and ask the question. I have great doubts as to whether you will agree.

 

[Frankfooter]

I don't remember if I did state that, but if you ask the question about Palestinians again I can give a straight yes or no answer to that question with nothing added, that is, "a one word post" if you can do the same to my question of "Will you condemn the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israeli citizens as a terrorist attack." Your answer must be a yes or a no and nothing else. A one word post.

If you agree, I will even go 1st.

If you agree, go ahead and ask the question. I have great doubts as to whether you will agree.

As I've said before.
Hamas and Palestinians have the right to self defence, they are legally allowed to attack Israel.
But its a war crime to target civilians, they, like Israel need to be taken to the Hague for targeting civilians.

You won't say whether you think Palestinians are humans and deserve basic human rights, will you?

 

[shack]

You won't say whether you think Palestinians are humans and deserve basic human rights, will you?

What are you talking about? I just said that I would. I agreed to answer your question if you agreed to answer mine. What could be more fair?

Like Hamas, when challenged, you run away afraid and hide in the tunnels. I'd be embarrassed if I were you.

And here's my post to prove what I say is true and your claim is unsurprisingly false. You should retract it, to prove how much integrity you have.

if you ask the question about Palestinians again I can give a straight yes or no answer to that question with nothing added, that is, "a one word post" if you can do the same to my question of "Will you condemn the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israeli citizens as a terrorist attack." Your answer must be a yes or a no and nothing else. A one word post.

If you agree, I will even go 1st.

If you agree, go ahead and ask the question. I have great doubts as to whether you will agree.

 

[basketcase]

Back to the one note samba.
...;

The one note being your refusal to unambiguously condemn Hamas.

Of course you'll claim the intel, videos, radar, drone footage, and captured conversations of the PIJ rocket strike are just Jewish lies and that the US agreement with the intel being part of what your UN antisemite refers to as Jews subjugating America.

 

[basketcase]

As I've said before.
Hamas and Palestinians have the right to self defence, they are legally allowed to attack Israel.
...

And no comment that the Hamas attack was explicitly to kill and kidnap as many civilians as possible.

You won't say whether you think Palestinians are humans and deserve basic human rights, will you?

I've answered many times, fully agreeing that Palestinians deserve human rights. meanwhile you keep arguing that Israeli Jews don't.

 

[Frankfooter]

What are you talking about? I just said that I would. I agreed to answer your question if you agreed to answer mine. What could be more fair?

Like Hamas, when challenged, you run away afraid and hide in the tunnels. I'd be embarrassed if I were you.

And here's my post to prove what I say is true and your claim is unsurprisingly false. You should retract it, to prove how much integrity you have.

I answered, now you're too afraid to answer whether you think Palestinians deserve basic human rights.

 

[Frankfooter]

The one note being your refusal to unambiguously condemn Hamas.

Of course you'll claim the intel, videos, radar, drone footage, and captured conversations of the PIJ rocket strike are just Jewish lies and that the US agreement with the intel being part of what your UN antisemite refers to as Jews subjugating America.

The army that killed Abu Akleh and Rachel Corrie and lied and said they didn't are telling the truth this time?

You believe them no matter what they say, you are as trustworthy as Hamas.

 

[Frankfooter]

I've answered many times, fully agreeing that Palestinians deserve human rights. meanwhile you keep arguing that Israeli Jews don't.

See, clearly you are lying again.
You can't say they deserve full rights and defend apartheid.

 

[shack]

I answered, now you're too afraid to answer whether you think Palestinians deserve basic human rights.

Impossible. My question needed a yes or no answer.

I've answered your question numerous times.

 

[Frankfooter]

Impossible. My question needed a yes or no answer.

I've answered your question numerous times.

I knew you were too afraid to answer.
Its like Israel's borders.
You're afraid to state where you think they are because you're stuck admitting its an occupation or apartheid.
You won't admit Palestinians deserve basic rights because then you'd have to defend apartheid and if you say they don't have rights then you're basically the KKK.

So you can't answer either of those.

 

[basketcase]

See, clearly you are lying again.
You can't say they deserve full rights and defend apartheid.

Says a guy who claims Jews have no right to event quietly walk around on their holiest site. The way Israel severely restricts Jewish worshipers, they way they exempt non-Jews from national service, and the way the PA allows Arab iosraelis free access but bans Jewish Israelis could be described as apartheid but your use of the word is as idiotic as accusing Israel of genocide. Words used to have meanings.

You have been consistent though in your support of attacks on Jewish civilians though with your continual claims that they are valid targets because some other Jews may be terrorists. f course no moral person would say that all Palestinians are valid targets because Hamas are terrorists but you love your racist double standards.

 

[shack]

I knew you were too afraid to answer.

You are sooo dishonest. You have no shame.

 

[Frankfooter]

Says a guy who claims Jews have no right to event quietly walk around on their holiest site. The way Israel severely restricts Jewish worshipers, they way they exempt non-Jews from national service, and the way the PA allows Arab iosraelis free access but bans Jewish Israelis could be described as apartheid but your use of the word is as idiotic as accusing Israel of genocide. Words used to have meanings.

You have been consistent though in your support of attacks on Jewish civilians though with your continual claims that they are valid targets because some other Jews may be terrorists. f course no moral person would say that all Palestinians are valid targets because Hamas are terrorists but you love your racist double standards.

You can't answer.

You are sooo dishonest. You have no shame.

And you can't answer.

Neither one of you is willing to say that Palestinians deserve basic human rights.
Because that means you'd have to admit apartheid is wrong.
That means you'd have to admit that Palestinians have the right to self defence.

So you can't state that you think Palestinians deserve basic human rights.
And down the path of apartheid and genocide you go.....

Treating them as humans means reading this testimony and feeling remorse.

A letter to Europe from a Palestinian
I am writing this letter as news continues to reach me of relatives, neighbours, and friends being killed in Gaza by Israel’s indiscriminate bombardment.

Dear Europeans,

I, like millions of Palestinians, am living through the worst nightmare of yet another round of mass death and destruction unleashed on our people – something you would often simply call “an escalation” of the “Palestinian-Israeli conflict”.

As I write these lines, al-Ahli Hospital was bombed, killing hundreds of children, men and women, who had sought safety on the premises of the hospital. Hours earlier, the news of the death of my friend Mohammed Mokhiemar, his wife Safaa, and their three-month-old baby Elyana reached me.

They were killed after evacuating with other families to the southern part of Gaza, following Israeli orders. They and 70 other Palestinians were killed by Israeli air strikes.

The only word I can think of that comes close to what I feel right now is “qahr” in Arabic; it is not just pain, anguish and anger. It is the feeling passed on through generations, accumulated more than 75 years of ethnic cleansing, mass killings, injustice, oppression, colonisation, occupation and apartheid. It is a feeling ingrained in every Palestinian, something we have to live with all our lives.

It is a feeling I was born with to a family of refugees in the Gaza Strip. My grandparents hailed from the village of Isdud (now Ashdod) and the village of Bayt Jirja, but were forced to settle in Jabalia refugee camp, just about 20km (12.4 miles) away from their homes. Qahr was probably the first emotion I read on my mother’s face as a baby – a young mother worried about her infants surviving the Israeli onslaught on Gaza amid the first Intifada.

Qahr was what I felt when the Israelis first raided our home, and when they first arrested my father, who was subjected to repeated arbitrary detention without trial or charge. Qahr was what overwhelmed me when I saw Israeli soldiers open fire at peaceful Palestinian demonstrators. Qahr was more powerful than the pain I felt when I, too, was shot.

Qahr defined every assault Israel launched on Gaza, killing, maiming and devastating my family, friends, neighbours, and fellow Palestinians in 2008, 2009, 2012, 2014, 2020, and 2021.

Today, as I watch what is unfolding in my homeland, I feel qahr, but also deep indignation and frustration. The reactions of your leaders, dear Europeans, to what is going on have yet again revealed selective solidarity, moral failure and a dark double standard.

On October 11, when more than 1,000 Palestinians had already been killed by indiscriminate Israeli bombardment of Gaza, Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, offered unconditional support to Israel. “Europe stands with Israel. And we fully support Israel’s right to defend itself,” she said, making no mention of the complete blockade Israel had imposed on Gaza, cutting off electricity, water, and the supply of food and medicine – what legal experts define as a war crime.

Just a few days earlier, her colleague, Commissioner Olivér Várhelyi had said, “The scale of terror and brutality against #Israel and its people is a turning point. There can be no business as usual”, announcing the suspension of all aid to the Palestinian people, in a clear act of collective punishment. The decision was reversed, but the damage had been done: all Palestinians had been painted as “brutal terrorists”.

Of course, there was no official European reaction to Israeli officials calling Palestinians “animals” and “sub-human” and the genocidal implications that such language carries; hardly surprising, given that Israeli settlers’ marches in which they shout “kill the Arabs” were never condemned either.

But there has been a concerted effort to censor and prevent diaspora Palestinians and their European allies from mourning and demonstrating solidarity with the people of Gaza, as various European states have imposed protest bans and police forces have harassed and beaten demonstrators.

European politicians from across the political spectrum – including many liberals and greens – have joined the campaign of collective dehumanisation of Palestinians. Yet, these same individuals have been more than forthcoming in support of Ukraine in its struggle against Russian occupation.

According to them, Ukrainians have the right to resist, Palestinians do not; Ukrainians are “freedom fighters”, Palestinians are “terrorists”. Ukrainian lives lost to indiscriminate bombardment of civilian homes and infrastructure are worth mourning, Palestinian lives lost in the same circumstances are better ignored – or worse justified as Israel exercising its “right to defend itself”. This European double standard is truly deadly.

That European leaders and politicians are taking the moral high ground right now and labelling us, Palestinians, “brutal terrorists” is quite rich, especially considering the pre-history of what is going on.

Let us remember that on your continent, dear Europeans, wild, brutal anti-Semitism raged for centuries, resulting in bloody pogroms, mass killings, expulsions, dispossession and harassment of European Jews. When a movement emerged within the Jewish community calling for a mass exodus to Palestine, European anti-Semites encouraged it.

One of them, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour signed a pledge in 1917 that the British government would support the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine, on the lands of the indigenous Palestinian population. The Holocaust, the peak of European murderous anti-Semitism, was followed by European countries unanimously backing the creation of Israel in a United Nations vote. More than half of the world – still under colonial rule – could not vote.

The indigenous Palestinian population, of course, was not asked whether it wanted to pay the price for European anti-Semitic brutality. The following year, Israeli militias ethnically cleansed more than 750,000 Palestinians from their homeland in what we call, the Nakba, the catastrophe.

As American writer James Baldwin aptly put it in a 1979 article reflecting on this reality: “the state of Israel was not created for the salvation of the Jews; it was created for the salvation of the Western interests … The Palestinians have been paying for the British colonial policy of ‘divide and rule’ and for Europe’s guilty Christian conscience for more than thirty years.”

It has been 75 years of this “guilty Christian conscience” now, dear Europeans. One has to wonder if ever you would ever feel guilt for your complicity in what is happening to us, Palestinians.

It should not be that difficult to look critically at the brutality Palestinians have been subjected to, and ask yourselves if it is right. It should not be that difficult to open a history book and read and learn about what has happened in Palestine and understand our struggle for self-determination and return. It should not be that difficult to read the myriad of United Nations resolutions reaffirming our rights – to resist, to be free of occupation, to return to our homeland.

It is a disgrace to talk about human rights, equality and democracy and then fail to question the brutal policies of a country that engages in settler colonisation and apartheid.

In the first six days of the war, Israel dropped 6,000 bombs on the densely populated Gaza Strip. That, according to experts, is the equivalent of a quarter of an atomic bomb. According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, more than 3,000 people were killed, including more than 1,000 children; but we really do not know the true death two as many people remain under the rubble with no one to pull them out.

Last week, Israel ordered more than 1.1 million Palestinians in Gaza to evacuate their homes under continuous bombing. The images of Palestinians leaving their homes and making their way through the rubble towards illusory safety have reminded us of the Nakba. Among them are my family, who left with heavy heart our partially damaged house, which they spent their lifetime building.

As I write these lines, I fear at any moment receiving a message about the death of my family: Ismail my father, Halima my mother, Mohammed my brother, Asmaa my sister-in-law, and my most beautiful nieces Elya (6 years old) and Naya (2 months).

I want you to remember their names. I would not let them become mere numbers if they get killed.

I would not be fearing for their lives today, dear Europeans, if it were not for your support, silence and complicity in Israeli crimes and the economic and political backing Israel receives from the European governments that you elected.

A day will come when Palestine will be liberated. It will be a day of reckoning. You will be asked, while Israeli occupation and apartheid were crushing Palestinians, what were you doing? What will you have to say for your inaction then?

There is still time for you to spare yourself the shame of being on the wrong side of history. As bell hooks said, “Solidarity is a verb”. Are you acting now to stop the genocide in Gaza?

 

[basketcase]

You can't answer.



And you can't answer.
...

You can't even decide what you're asking.

Even though you didn't ask me this time, I repeated my answer last time you did. Palestinians should have human rights. I also acknowledge that Hamas (and to a lesser extent the PA) hugely prevent Palestinian human rights; it's not all Israeli's fault as you like to pretend.

And you keep arguing that Jews shouldn't have those same rights in the Middle East with the way you justify their killing, the way you claim that they shouldn't be allowed in the West Bank (despite Hebron having some of Judaism's holiest site) and they way you insist that Jews walking around a shared holy site are really a desecration that justifies terrorism.


Seriously, take a break from terb. Even a 12 hour rest would help you.

 

[Frankfooter]

Palestinians should have human rights.

Those rights include the right to self defence, which you give only to Israelis.

And you keep arguing that Jews shouldn't have those same rights in the Middle East with the way you justify their killing, the way you claim that they shouldn't be allowed in the West Bank (despite Hebron having some of Judaism's holiest site) and they way you insist that Jews walking around a shared holy site are really a desecration that justifies terrorism.

I argue that Jews should abide by the international status quo treaty with Jordan and not break it by 'storming Al Aqsa'.
I also argue for the end of apartheid and equal rights for all.

Its you that argues that Palestinians should not have equal rights while living in one state apartheid Israel.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1715168823337185344