BROKEN: Our healthcare system.

[GameBoy27]

No, simply saying it is Juvenile does not make it true.

Every left-leaning politician exagerates 'cuts' and equates spending more with the solution to the problem.

Andrea Horwath (BOLDing / underlining is mine)
****

For decades, Conservative and Liberal governments’ big cuts and bad choices have damaged Ontario’s health care system. Doug Ford was cutting critical health services before the pandemic – he slashed public health units from 35 to 10, and hisb, Bill 124, froze the wages of health care workers below the rate of inflation.

He refused to spend the money needed to shore up hospitals and health care during the pandemic. Disrespected, burnt out nurses and other health care workers are leaving the sector in droves.

Steven Del Duca and the Liberals created Ontario’s hallway medicine crisis. They froze hospital budgets and fired 1,600 nurses. They can’t be trusted to fix what they broke.

Together, we can fix this. The Ontario NDP has a practical, doable plan to rebuild and strengthen health care in Ontario. We’re committed to making investments in critical services. We’ll make sure health care workers get the pay they deserve and launch a campaign to recruit, retain and return nurses and other health care workers to our hospitals and public health units, including in underserved areas like rural and northern communities.

****

I think that that is a good example. Every problem is a lack of spending, every solution is more spending or - ah, excuse me '\- "investment" (LMAO)

That was about the easiest refutation I have ever had, Cheers mate!

And for those who think nurses are paid peanuts...

Salaries range from 83,200 CAD (lowest average) to 250,000 CAD (highest average, actual maximum salary is higher). This is the average yearly salary including housing, transport, and other benefits.

 

[poker]

No, simply saying it is Juvenile does not make it true.

Every left-leaning politician exagerates 'cuts' and equates spending more with the solution to the problem.

Andrea Horwath (BOLDing / underlining is mine)
****

For decades, Conservative and Liberal governments’ big cuts and bad choices have damaged Ontario’s health care system. Doug Ford was cutting critical health services before the pandemic – he slashed public health units from 35 to 10, and hisb, Bill 124, froze the wages of health care workers below the rate of inflation.

He refused to spend the money needed to shore up hospitals and health care during the pandemic. Disrespected, burnt out nurses and other health care workers are leaving the sector in droves.

Steven Del Duca and the Liberals created Ontario’s hallway medicine crisis. They froze hospital budgets and fired 1,600 nurses. They can’t be trusted to fix what they broke.

Together, we can fix this. The Ontario NDP has a practical, doable plan to rebuild and strengthen health care in Ontario. We’re committed to making investments in critical services. We’ll make sure health care workers get the pay they deserve and launch a campaign to recruit, retain and return nurses and other health care workers to our hospitals and public health units, including in underserved areas like rural and northern communities.

****

I think that that is a good example. Every problem is a lack of spending, every solution is more spending or - ah, excuse me '\- "investment" (LMAO)

That was about the easiest refutation I have ever had, Cheers mate!

You have refuted nothing though. Understanding what things cost is not throwing money at a problem.

Btw…. How is your $1 beer tasting? Haven’t seen a Conservative birch about hydro rates lately…. It must be fixed? What? It’s not…. But the Conservatives are in charge now, so you won’t bitch. ??? But… they were going to fix it. He campaigned on fixing it. Oh wait, he subsidized it.

Dougie was going to slash healthcare. Then the pandemic exposed how underfunded it was, including long term care. Guess it’s easy to take aim at things you have no understanding of. But look who I am explaining this too.

 

[poker]

And for those who think nurses are paid peanuts...

Salaries range from 83,200 CAD (lowest average) to 250,000 CAD (highest average, actual maximum salary is higher). This is the average yearly salary including housing, transport, and other benefits.

And yet nurses are quitting.

 

[barnacler]

The great city state of Singapore has a hybrid medical system.
What is the difference between private and public healthcare in Singapore? (april-international.com)

Private doctors and clinics actually make up the majority of primary care facilities in Singapore, providing approximately 80% of the city-state’s primary healthcare needs.

Good

You have refuted nothing though. Understanding what things cost is not throwing money at a problem.

Btw…. How is your $1 beer tasting? Haven’t seen a Conservative birch about hydro rates lately…. It must be fixed? What? It’s not…. But the Conservatives are in charge now, so you won’t bitch. ??? But… they were going to fix it. He campaigned on fixing it. Oh wait, he subsidized it.

Dougie was going to slash healthcare. Then the pandemic exposed how underfunded it was, including long term care. Guess it’s easy to take aim at things you have no understanding of. But look who I am explaining this too.

Make your point about the $1 beer, what is it you are trying to say?

I agree that understanding what things cost is not throwing money at a problem. So what? That obviously has no bearing on my point, so it is irrelevant.

What is your point about hydro rates?

What do you mean Doug Ford (sorry, I am assuming that it is Premier Doug Ford that you are referring to when you use the childish term "Dougie"?) was going to slash healthcare? When did he say that? I hadn't noticed him announce that he intended to slash healthcare. Perhaps you could point me to a link where he said that.

When you say the pandemic exposed underfunding, what do you mean? That the healthcare is not COMPLETELY ready for EVERY healthcare risk that comes our way? Then, yes, of course, it is underfunded on many measures, because there are tons of healthcare risks to our system, and no, we can never protect against everything.

By that definition, our military is underfunded, because we certainly couldn't withstand an attack from a great many countries.

Our courts have a capacity, so if that capacity is exceeded at some point, is it underfunded?

Every business has capacity constraints, and it is unfeasible to have overcapacity in every area. Same thing with governments.

If a once in a 20 year time period, a pandemic comes along that, say, quadruples the needs of the system, hell no, we do NOT want to be wastefully carrying all that extra capacity for years when it is not needed, because there are OTHER NEEDS that we would therefore be ignoring. That policy would COST lives due to poorer care in other areas.

You have to choose, you can't get everything. There are constraints, there is not unlimited wealth to spend on these things, health care systems have budgets, and not everything can be totally covered all the time.

That's the reality of living in any system with limited resources.

Any manager knows that.

Lets say the province of Ontario has infrastructure - lets say flood protection barriers - that are rated to protect at 110% of the historically high water level. And lets say there are 100s of these scaterred throughout the province in many different municiplaities.

So a flood comes along that raises levels to 125% of the historic max in one location.

What do you advise? We go to 150% for all these locations? Maybe in that case we should have defibrilitors on every corner, as well as triple the number of fire departments, plus police, and every other imaginable public sercice?

Of course, we don't have that money, so we need to 'make do'.

That includes health care.

 

[barnacler]

Ah, where are these cuts you talk about?

Healthcare spending in Ontario is gobbling up an ever-greater percentage of spending, not less.

 

[Darts]

I was watching CBC last night. Yes, CBC.

Here is an interesting tidbit about employment growth.

Virtually all the recent employment growth has been in the public sector --- the consumer of our tax dollars.

Very little employment growth in the private sector --- the generator of tax dollars.

 

[Claudia Love]

Private doctors and clinics actually make up the majority of primary care facilities in Singapore, providing approximately 80% of the city-state’s primary healthcare needs.

Good


Make your point about the $1 beer, what is it you are trying to say?

I agree that understanding what things cost is not throwing money at a problem. So what? That obviously has no bearing on my point, so it is irrelevant.

What is your point about hydro rates?

What do you mean Doug Ford (sorry, I am assuming that it is Premier Doug Ford that you are referring to when you use the childish term "Dougie"?) was going to slash healthcare? When did he say that? I hadn't noticed him announce that he intended to slash healthcare. Perhaps you could point me to a link where he said that.

When you say the pandemic exposed underfunding, what do you mean? That the healthcare is not COMPLETELY ready for EVERY healthcare risk that comes our way? Then, yes, of course, it is underfunded on many measures, because there are tons of healthcare risks to our system, and no, we can never protect against everything.

By that definition, our military is underfunded, because we certainly couldn't withstand an attack from a great many countries.

Our courts have a capacity, so if that capacity is exceeded at some point, is it underfunded?

Every business has capacity constraints, and it is unfeasible to have overcapacity in every area. Same thing with governments.

If a once in a 20 year time period, a pandemic comes along that, say, quadruples the needs of the system, hell no, we do NOT want to be wastefully carrying all that extra capacity for years when it is not needed, because there are OTHER NEEDS that we would therefore be ignoring. That policy would COST lives due to poorer care in other areas.

You have to choose, you can't get everything. There are constraints, there is not unlimited wealth to spend on these things, health care systems have budgets, and not everything can be totally covered all the time.

That's the reality of living in any system with limited resources.

Any manager knows that.

Lets say the province of Ontario has infrastructure - lets say flood protection barriers - that are rated to protect at 110% of the historically high water level. And lets say there are 100s of these scaterred throughout the province in many different municiplaities.

So a flood comes along that raises levels to 125% of the historic max in one location.

What do you advise? We go to 150% for all these locations? Maybe in that case we should have defibrilitors on every corner, as well as triple the number of fire departments, plus police, and every other imaginable public sercice?

Of course, we don't have that money, so we need to 'make do'.

That includes health care.

when I google Doug ford cuts healthcare I only get like 100 articles dont be silly willy.Answer this brainiac if Doug Ford is cutting healthcare 1 billion during 10 years and the federal government gave Doug over 10 billion during the Pandemic why is ok to OVER SPEND ON A HIGHWAY AND NOT HEALTHCARE are you one of Dougs business cronies buying up the land to drive rent unaffordable the more you talk I see your part of the problem with what's going on in Ontario you do know your stuff but you do not know nor care on saving lives like I do.
Your taking like Harper who also thought like you and cut healthcare 14 billion what is it with majority of conservatives they think healthcare shouldn't be a right but a privilege?

 

[poker]

Private doctors and clinics actually make up the majority of primary care facilities in Singapore, providing approximately 80% of the city-state’s primary healthcare needs.

Good


Make your point about the $1 beer, what is it you are trying to say?

I agree that understanding what things cost is not throwing money at a problem. So what? That obviously has no bearing on my point, so it is irrelevant.

What is your point about hydro rates?

What do you mean Doug Ford (sorry, I am assuming that it is Premier Doug Ford that you are referring to when you use the childish term "Dougie"?) was going to slash healthcare? When did he say that? I hadn't noticed him announce that he intended to slash healthcare. Perhaps you could point me to a link where he said that.

When you say the pandemic exposed underfunding, what do you mean? That the healthcare is not COMPLETELY ready for EVERY healthcare risk that comes our way? Then, yes, of course, it is underfunded on many measures, because there are tons of healthcare risks to our system, and no, we can never protect against everything.

By that definition, our military is underfunded, because we certainly couldn't withstand an attack from a great many countries.

Our courts have a capacity, so if that capacity is exceeded at some point, is it underfunded?

Every business has capacity constraints, and it is unfeasible to have overcapacity in every area. Same thing with governments.

If a once in a 20 year time period, a pandemic comes along that, say, quadruples the needs of the system, hell no, we do NOT want to be wastefully carrying all that extra capacity for years when it is not needed, because there are OTHER NEEDS that we would therefore be ignoring. That policy would COST lives due to poorer care in other areas.

You have to choose, you can't get everything. There are constraints, there is not unlimited wealth to spend on these things, health care systems have budgets, and not everything can be totally covered all the time.

That's the reality of living in any system with limited resources.

Any manager knows that.

Lets say the province of Ontario has infrastructure - lets say flood protection barriers - that are rated to protect at 110% of the historically high water level. And lets say there are 100s of these scaterred throughout the province in many different municiplaities.

So a flood comes along that raises levels to 125% of the historic max in one location.

What do you advise? We go to 150% for all these locations? Maybe in that case we should have defibrilitors on every corner, as well as triple the number of fire departments, plus police, and every other imaginable public sercice?

Of course, we don't have that money, so we need to 'make do'.

That includes health care.

You make a lot of fair points.

As for health care cuts… it’s in this article:

Doug Ford cuts: Tracking the Ontario PC government's crackdown on spending

From wind turbines to coffee for bureaucrats, here's what Ontario's new government has axed to date.

www.macleans.ca

I thought I pointed out Nursing homes. They were certainly exposed as being underfunded.

And I guess the big point I made is that Conservatives always say Liberals throw money at problems and want to cut everything. The $1 beer epitomized that. I guess a few companies tried to make a $1 product, but it was not feasible.


Bottom line…. A modern society is not cheap. I fear when crayon economists start talking.

Now… I will agree the last Liberal government mismanaged. But, I can say that about both parties historically.

 

[Claudia Love]

 

[H82Wait]

You really don't understand why they close do you? It's like explaining things to someone that will argue the sky is purple

 

[Y_Diner]

Welfare

Classist.

 

[Not getting younger]

Okay why is it broken?

oh my. It’s is almost broken today. Will be once boomers start kneeding, knees, hips, head to toe.

 

[Not getting younger]

No we don't need it to be private like the shit hole US.Where people get denied the right of healthcare because of lack of insurance. We need a premier that spends 10 billion in healthcare and not a fuckin highway that will save you 60 seconds of time. Ford is a jackass.

dont entirely disagree, don’t entirely agree.

There are far more ministries than just healthcare. Many, like healthcare are critically understaffed today.

for but one example. Suggest people look at how much funding the Ministry of the Environment gets, and the Ministry of Natural Resources/Forest…..table scraps…I thought saving the environment was more important than anything to voters….

more importantly, where do you plan to find the money…for oh so much..the province is broke thanks to the previous admin, and the same voters. From the ministry of the Environment ?

And don’t get me started on Hydro, and some other things in need of fixing.

 

[drivewaypark]

Our health care system is still one of the best in the world.

 

[Not getting younger]

Our health care system is still one of the best in the world.

Is it?
When you consider what it cost/what we pay for it? And that is going to explode, in a few short years.

I know I have a personal horror story. As does a friend, colleague I worked with.

Overall, Canada gets a “B” grade on the health report card, ranking 8th among the 16 peer countries.

https://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/health-aspx/#:~:text=Overall%2C%20Canada%20gets%20a%20“B,the%20self%2Dreported%20health%20indicators

.

 

[Frankfooter]

Is it?
When you consider what it cost/what we pay for it? And that is going to explode, in a few short years.

I know I have a personal horror story. As does a friend, colleague I worked with.

https://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/health-aspx/#:~:text=Overall%2C%20Canada%20gets%20a%20“B,the%20self%2Dreported%20health%20indicators

.

Blame Ford.

He didn't spend federal money, wouldn't pay for nurses, spent millions more on contract nurses, closed hospitals and emergency rooms yet kept the one open by his cottage.

 

[Not getting younger]

Going back reading through some of this.
We are 370-400 billion in debt now thanks to a previous admin and Covid.Because inflation is high, revenues are better than projected. So the budget is “hoped” be balanced ( no deficit financing) in 2025 “hopefully”…rather than 2028

But the bottom line is our debt to gdp ( economy) or think of it as revenue. Where all tax dollars come from. Is almost 40%. That’s NOT good.

The expected net debt-to-GDP ratio for Ontario in 2022-23 has decreased from 41.4 percent (as projected in the 2022 Budget) to 37.8 percent.

And we have a litany of problems.
RNs working stupid amounts of OT. Do we all think they are the only ones? In healthcare, other ministries? Hydro is not fixed, we just borrowed more $$$ for rebates…And Boomers will be leaving the workforce (gdp) and crushing healthcare as they get older…

Hate to say it, but we’ve been warned over and over and over since around 2000. As for Ford. There have not been cuts in the budget
.

Budget 2023 reveals a record spending plan of $204.7 billion, with a large focus on health care and workforce development.

So where is the $$$$$ to come from for tens of thousands of RNs, Surgeons, GPS, lab techs, PSWs, and they are not the only ministry..

2023 Ontario Budget | OCC

occ.ca

.

2023 Ontario Budget | Building a Strong Ontario

2023 Ontario Budget: Building a Strong Ontario

budget.ontario.ca

[/quote]

 

[oil&gas]

Close one or two universities and/or merge a number of them.
Carleton can be merged with U of Ottawa and Wilfrid Laurier with
Waterloo. Eliminate and downsize degree programs like Gender
Studies and Theology. Downsize universities across Ontario as
well. Some departments of a leaner York Univ can be merged with
UofT. Money saved can be channeled into health care. Colleges
of applied arts and technology like Seneca must continue to
be adequately funded nonetheless.

I value education but healthcare first and housing are where
our spending should be prioritized. We need low cost rental
housing very very badly.

 

[Not getting younger]

Actually like some of those thoughts. If only the public would value people with business acumen ( Not saying Ford is great, a lot about him I don’t like) over wanna be drama teachers, and celebrities…That said, foreign students are a major source of funding. And it will lay off people in the ministry of Education…who will kick, claw, and scream. And few politicians have long lives, when they take on unions.

Nor do I think, that alone will scratch the surface. There’s far more, than some areas of healthcare in dire need of money. And sooner rather than later.

 

[Not getting younger]

Read my comment about adding more water to a leaking bathtub. The problem isn't money, it's staffing. You can't just hire more highly trained nurses out of thin air. Many of them quit or retired during the pandemic. I have a friend who'd a nurse manager. She manages 50 nurses. She said when COVID hit, she was down from 50 to 30 nurses. It's been hell trying to hire more. Ontario isn't the only province with this problem, it's Canada wide. More funding is not the answer. They're trying to hire more nurses from other countries, but it's not a simple process. It involves both federal and provincial governments and like anything the government does, things move at a snail's pace. I know you like to blame Ford for our problems, but it's simply not the case. I'm actually surprised you didn't blame him for causing the pandemic.

Just want to touch on this.
Prior to Covid, going back years. When Wynne was in power, she used to “brag” that on a per capita basis Ontario had the leanest public service ( head count) to defend the cost of public service……………we did/do..

And whether Covid, burn out from working OT, is causing RNs to drop like flies. At the end of the day, we have to pay them. No matter how many we hire…so it is about funding, and that money has to come from somewhere, and RNs, are hardly the only ones..Not even remotely….

Today, this year, the province is borrowing more money despite inflation which increases revenue…., the budget is not balanced. In order to operate what we have today.…want to hire 40,000 public servants??….they ain’t going to work for free…And we have Boomers to worry about. Which are just going to get older, and older, and older…

Maybe we shouldn’t be expanding the 407/401……that shit cost billions, and is always done over years…?????? What about the economy….or other places starved for some loving, and job creation….

Find money from other ministries? That means layoffs somewhere. Ministry of the environment? Isn’t saving the planet the most important thing? That ministry gets table scraps…Always has, going back to Harris. Funny that. Dalton and green champions…but no funding for the environment.

Housing/new develops. Just another very major, no time problem… so many whine about? But which also creates jobs ( construction)??? And means $$$ for the GTA and province???

Funny, I haven’t heard a single person, on either side of the spectrum say raise revenue/taxes. I suppose we just like to live beyond our means, and pass the buck off to our grandchildren, for the mess “we” made.