Justin was right after all

[DinkleMouse]

Whether or not they had an effect has no bearing on the occurrences. And that more importantly Trudeau chose to ignore the intelligence services for two election cycles.

You dont want them happening period, anymore than say foreign donors. No one can truly quantify their effect. Little or large the public has a right to know. And was denied that.

I'm not sure if you have any experience in the military or intelligence sectors, but it seems like this may come as a shock to you: it's the job of the intelligence community to not just detect but act against these threats, and specific directives to intelligence agencies are not usually made public. In other words, we don't know that he "ignored" them. We don't know what steps he may or may not have taken, or that they intelligence community may or may not have taken, and likely won't for a long time to come as it would fall under National Security and the Security of Secrets Act. There are plenty of things the public does not have the right to know.

To say no one can quantify their effect is also a bit insulting to the intelligence community, whose job it is to do exactly what and who did so.

Let's be very clear, Trudeau is a horrendous PM and needs to step down as leader of the Liberal Party. There's plenty of reasons why. There's certainly no need to speculate and invent more of them.

 

[Frankfooter]

The investigations haven't even started yet.

CSIS reported.

Yes, but these findings were biased towards the liberals. These findings must have had some effect, because why is Trudeau being asked to resign. Also, that liberal candidate Hon Dang, is being asked to resign, as well. That's why Justin is finally agreeing to a public investigation. Knowing Justin, the head of this investigation, will be biased towards the liberals, as usual!!

Now you're arguing that CSIS is covertly backing the liberals?

 

[Butler1000]

I'm not sure if you have any experience in the military or intelligence sectors, but it seems like this may come as a shock to you: it's the job of the intelligence community to not just detect but act against these threats, and specific directives to intelligence agencies are not usually made public. In other words, we don't know that he "ignored" them. We don't know what steps he may or may not have taken, or that they intelligence community may or may not have taken, and likely won't for a long time to come as it would fall under National Security and the Security of Secrets Act. There are plenty of things the public does not have the right to know.

To say no one can quantify their effect is also a bit insulting to the intelligence community, whose job it is to do exactly what and who did so.

Let's be very clear, Trudeau is a horrendous PM and needs to step down as leader of the Liberal Party. There's plenty of reasons why. There's certainly no need to speculate and invent more of them.

CBC article yesterday stated he was informed of what was going on and refused to authorize any action. He admitted this.

And yes interference in an election does come under the public's right to know. Hence the agency's publicly outing Trudeau. If it was a secret, they wouldn't have done it.

How do you quantify if a facebook post, a meme, or other social media directly changed someone's vote?

 

[squeezer]

Hmmmm, I bet if the look deep enough they will also find Russian interference towards the Conservatives, then what?

I guess it's NDP all the way!

 

[Frankfooter]

Hmmmm, I bet if the look deep enough they will also find Russian interference towards the Conservatives, then what?

I guess it's NDP all the way!

I'm sure once they look they'll find the people who sent money to the convoy funding shite, Russia, China, Israel, the US and a few other countries as well.

 

[jcpro]

Awww, shucks. That's just Justin being Justin. I like how they tried to use abortion to change the channel on Twitter, yesterday. Poor Katie.

 

[DinkleMouse]

CBC article yesterday stated he was informed of what was going on and refused to authorize any action. He admitted this.

The report that was leaked from the "intelligence communities" came from an election interference task force Trudeau formed himself years ago (see sources below regarding SITE). Intelligence agencies have reported they've been taking steps to combat it going back for many years (see sources below where CSE reported it took steps to combat interference in 2019). He doesn't need to authorize action that is already included in their mandate. He said he didn't authorize any action when discussing a particular case, same as he denied knowledge about a particular case. He never said he's authorized no actions or denied knowledge in general, in fact he's been discussing election interference and doing things about it for years (see sources below).

And yes interference in an election does come under the public's right to know. Hence the agency's publicly outing Trudeau. If it was a secret, they wouldn't have done it.

I didn't say the public didn't have a right to know about interference, I said the public doesn't have a right to know all the details of what intelligence agencies are doing about it. Because if we publicise that information, other groups have an easier time working too circumvent it. That's how National Security works.

How do you quantify if a facebook post, a meme, or other social media directly changed someone's vote?

If you don't think social media is deciding votes, you haven't been listening. There's a reason there's a big push to combat misinformation and disinformation on social media. I'm not in the intelligence game, but it seems to me you can analyze past voting results with current poll results, compare polls before to after the release of misinformation or the suspected meddling, compare polls to actual election results, intercept foreign agent communications discussing their perceived effectiveness, etc. And those are ideas off the top of my head. Again though, it's literally the intelligence agencies' job to quantify these, and their report indicates no significant impact. I suspect the "how" is extremely complicated.

SOURCES

I'll give the link so you can confirm quotes aren't out of context, quote relevant parts, and highlight significant phrases.

From November of last year:

Trudeau accuses China of 'aggressive' election interference

It follows reports that Canada has identified 11 Beijing-funded candidates at the 2019 elections.

www.bbc.com

"We have taken significant measures to strengthen the integrity of our elections processes and our systems, and will continue to invest in the fight against election interference, against foreign interference of our democracies and institutions," Mr Trudeau told reporters on Monday.

From last month: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/china-interference-concerning-analyst-1.6752577

But Trudeau said he's aware of the threat and foreign interference did not change the outcomes of the 2019 and 2021 elections.

"I have been saying for years, including on the floor of the House of Commons, that China is trying to interfere in our democracy, in the process in our country, including during our elections," he told a news conference Monday.

Trudeau said Canada's intelligence agencies have been working "very hard" to counter the threat.

Jennifer O'Connell, parliamentary secretary to the minister of intergovernmental affairs, responded that the government had set up multiple committees to address and study foreign interference. Emergency Preparedness Minister Bill Blair chimed in that he had written to all MPs in December 2020 about the threat to elections from foreign actors — particularly China.

An article from 2018 where Trudeau is discussing foreign interference in elections (primarily Russia in this case, but still): https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-putin-election-interference-1.4587130

Trudeau cited how he has tasked Democratic Institutions Minister Karina Gould with shoring up Canada's electoral system against foreign meddling.

From a few days ago: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/election-foreign-influence-canada-1.6764639

That panel, which oversees the Critical Election Incident Public Protocol (CEIPP), was created in 2019 as part of a series of measures taken by the federal government to combat the threat of foreign influence on Canada's election process.

Last year, for example, Canada's cyber spy agency, the Communications Security Establishment (CSE), said in its annual report that it had launched a defensive operation to protect the 2021 federal election — including the party leaders' debate — from disruption by foreign agencies.

Juneau said that after the 2016 U.S. election, and reports of large-scale intervention, there was fear that Canada needed to take the issue more seriously.

"That was a wake-up call," he said.

Part of that wake-up call was the federal government's Plan to Protect Canada's Democracy. That plan included the creation of SITE, a task force comprised of CSIS, CSE, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and Global Affairs Canada (GAC).

 

[DinkleMouse]

Hmmmm, I bet if the look deep enough they will also find Russian interference towards the Conservatives, then what?

I guess it's NDP all the way!

They found Russian and Chinese interference in both Liberal and Conservative already. Turns out there are people on both sides of the aisle that foreign actors would be happy to see in power.

 

[Valcazar]

PS. why your lot punted Mulcair for Jagmeet is bewildering

Mulcair got screwed because whoever followed up Layton was going to suffer for being "Not-Layton".
Jagmeet came in with the hot social media campaign and was young and exciting and people just saw that work for Trudeau.
I think a lot of it just came down to the timing being what it was.

 

[Butler1000]

The report that was leaked from the "intelligence communities" came from an election interference task force Trudeau formed himself years ago (see sources below regarding SITE). Intelligence agencies have reported they've been taking steps to combat it going back for many years (see sources below where CSE reported it took steps to combat interference in 2019). He doesn't need to authorize action that is already included in their mandate. He said he didn't authorize any action when discussing a particular case, same as he denied knowledge about a particular case. He never said he's authorized no actions or denied knowledge in general, in fact he's been discussing election interference and doing things about it for years (see sources below).



I didn't say the public didn't have a right to know about interference, I said the public doesn't have a right to know all the details of what intelligence agencies are doing about it. Because if we publicise that information, other groups have an easier time working too circumvent it. That's how National Security works.



If you don't think social media is deciding votes, you haven't been listening. There's a reason there's a big push to combat misinformation and disinformation on social media. I'm not in the intelligence game, but it seems to me you can analyze past voting results with current poll results, compare polls before to after the release of misinformation or the suspected meddling, compare polls to actual election results, intercept foreign agent communications discussing their perceived effectiveness, etc. And those are ideas off the top of my head. Again though, it's literally the intelligence agencies' job to quantify these, and their report indicates no significant impact. I suspect the "how" is extremely complicated.

SOURCES

I'll give the link so you can confirm quotes aren't out of context, quote relevant parts, and highlight significant phrases.

From November of last year:

Trudeau accuses China of 'aggressive' election interference

It follows reports that Canada has identified 11 Beijing-funded candidates at the 2019 elections.

www.bbc.com

"We have taken significant measures to strengthen the integrity of our elections processes and our systems, and will continue to invest in the fight against election interference, against foreign interference of our democracies and institutions," Mr Trudeau told reporters on Monday.

From last month: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/china-interference-concerning-analyst-1.6752577

But Trudeau said he's aware of the threat and foreign interference did not change the outcomes of the 2019 and 2021 elections.

"I have been saying for years, including on the floor of the House of Commons, that China is trying to interfere in our democracy, in the process in our country, including during our elections," he told a news conference Monday.

Trudeau said Canada's intelligence agencies have been working "very hard" to counter the threat.

Jennifer O'Connell, parliamentary secretary to the minister of intergovernmental affairs, responded that the government had set up multiple committees to address and study foreign interference. Emergency Preparedness Minister Bill Blair chimed in that he had written to all MPs in December 2020 about the threat to elections from foreign actors — particularly China.

An article from 2018 where Trudeau is discussing foreign interference in elections (primarily Russia in this case, but still): https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-putin-election-interference-1.4587130

Trudeau cited how he has tasked Democratic Institutions Minister Karina Gould with shoring up Canada's electoral system against foreign meddling.

From a few days ago: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/election-foreign-influence-canada-1.6764639

That panel, which oversees the Critical Election Incident Public Protocol (CEIPP), was created in 2019 as part of a series of measures taken by the federal government to combat the threat of foreign influence on Canada's election process.

Last year, for example, Canada's cyber spy agency, the Communications Security Establishment (CSE), said in its annual report that it had launched a defensive operation to protect the 2021 federal election — including the party leaders' debate — from disruption by foreign agencies.

Juneau said that after the 2016 U.S. election, and reports of large-scale intervention, there was fear that Canada needed to take the issue more seriously.

"That was a wake-up call," he said.

Part of that wake-up call was the federal government's Plan to Protect Canada's Democracy. That plan included the creation of SITE, a task force comprised of CSIS, CSE, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and Global Affairs Canada (GAC).

It was all based around Russia. When China came up he chose not to worry about it. Its that simple. Thats all your post and links say in the end.

 

[DinkleMouse]

It was all based around Russia. When China came up he chose not to worry about it. Its that simple. Thats all your post and links say in the end.

I mean... That's not at all what they say nor does that reflect reality.

But hey, if you want to just look like a partisan hack that's going to twist things to make the guy you hate look wrong, you do you. Frankly, I've got plenty of reasons why I'm not voting for Trudeau next election that I don't have to invent stuff or ignore reality, and also avoid looking like a shill. Saying everything one guy does is wrong is a partisan and cult-like as saying everything everyone one guy does is right. Why you'd want that, I don't know. But it's not my problem.

 

[bver_hunter]

Poilievre tried to make it harder to investigate electoral crimes
New Democrats have deemed it politically important to distance themselves from their Liberal friends on this matter.

They signed up for enhanced social programs and fairer treatment of such groups as renters and precarious workers, not to give cover to the Liberals when scandals erupt.

As for the Conservatives, they are, as expected, in high dudgeon.

Mind you, the Conservatives have plenty of experience in election interference.

During Conservative PM Stephen Harper’s time in office there were multiple news stories about political operatives using robocalls to imitate the chief electoral officer and direct voters to the wrong polling places – among other electoral pranks.

Marc Mayrand, who headed Elections Canada at the time, told a parliamentary committee he considered it to be “outrageous” for anyone to imitate the chief electoral officer.

In 2012, a group of citizens and the Council of Canadians even brought a case to federal court seeking a byelection in one Toronto riding where election interference shenanigans had allegedly occurred during the campaign of the previous year.

The judge ruled against the complainants, on narrow legal grounds. But he added that during the trial he had seen plenty of evidence of malfeasance during the 2011 federal election.

The Conservative response to the robocall scandal was not a public inquiry.

Quite the contrary.

The Harper government responded with Pierre Poilievre’s oxymoronically named “Fair Elections Act”. That legislation sought to muzzle the chief electoral officer and make it more difficult for neutral officials to uncover acts of electoral interference.

One of the officials Poilievre went after was the Commissioner of Elections, the person responsible for investigating election crimes and misdemeanours.

Poilievre stripped the Commissioner’s office of its independence by moving it into the federal public prosecutor’s office. The public prosecutor reports to an elected politician, the justice minister.

The Trudeau Liberals undid much of Poilievre’s electoral handiwork. Among other measures, they restored the Commissioner’s independence.

The current Commissioner, Carolyn J. Simard, announced last week that she is conducting a thorough investigation of Chinese and other foreign interference in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections.

It would be fair to ask the Conservative leader what, if anything, the Commissioner would now be doing if his reforms were still in force.

Trudeau avoids inquiry; Poilievre forgets own record on electoral shenanigans

Public inquiries and electoral interference; two issues with complicated track records for the Trudeau Liberals and Poilievre's Conservatives.

rabble.ca

 

[DinkleMouse]

Poilievre tried to make it harder to investigate electoral crimes
New Democrats have deemed it politically important to distance themselves from their Liberal friends on this matter.

They signed up for enhanced social programs and fairer treatment of such groups as renters and precarious workers, not to give cover to the Liberals when scandals erupt.

As for the Conservatives, they are, as expected, in high dudgeon.

Mind you, the Conservatives have plenty of experience in election interference.

During Conservative PM Stephen Harper’s time in office there were multiple news stories about political operatives using robocalls to imitate the chief electoral officer and direct voters to the wrong polling places – among other electoral pranks.

Marc Mayrand, who headed Elections Canada at the time, told a parliamentary committee he considered it to be “outrageous” for anyone to imitate the chief electoral officer.

In 2012, a group of citizens and the Council of Canadians even brought a case to federal court seeking a byelection in one Toronto riding where election interference shenanigans had allegedly occurred during the campaign of the previous year.

The judge ruled against the complainants, on narrow legal grounds. But he added that during the trial he had seen plenty of evidence of malfeasance during the 2011 federal election.

The Conservative response to the robocall scandal was not a public inquiry.

Quite the contrary.

The Harper government responded with Pierre Poilievre’s oxymoronically named “Fair Elections Act”. That legislation sought to muzzle the chief electoral officer and make it more difficult for neutral officials to uncover acts of electoral interference.

One of the officials Poilievre went after was the Commissioner of Elections, the person responsible for investigating election crimes and misdemeanours.

Poilievre stripped the Commissioner’s office of its independence by moving it into the federal public prosecutor’s office. The public prosecutor reports to an elected politician, the justice minister.

The Trudeau Liberals undid much of Poilievre’s electoral handiwork. Among other measures, they restored the Commissioner’s independence.

The current Commissioner, Carolyn J. Simard, announced last week that she is conducting a thorough investigation of Chinese and other foreign interference in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections.

It would be fair to ask the Conservative leader what, if anything, the Commissioner would now be doing if his reforms were still in force.

Trudeau avoids inquiry; Poilievre forgets own record on electoral shenanigans

Public inquiries and electoral interference; two issues with complicated track records for the Trudeau Liberals and Poilievre's Conservatives.

rabble.ca

I can honestly say the chances of me voting for Trudeau are about as close to 0 as they can get. But if my only two choices were Pierre Poilievre and Justin Trudeau in an election, I'd check that Liberal box in a heartbeat.

Trudeau is a disaster and a disgrace, but Poilievre is all that and more. Every new party election I cross my fingers Chong wins the Conservative leadership, and every new party election I'm disappointed. O'Toole I was ok with, I would've voted for him over Trudeau. But Poilievre, no way.

 

[bver_hunter]

Poilievre's attack on chief electoral officer 'vicious,' 'totally inappropriate'

Politics in Canada – Mark Carney News – CTV News

Today's political news, including the latest on Prime Minister Mark Carney, Pierre Poilievre, government policies and more.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[JohnLarue]

Mulcair got screwed because whoever followed up Layton was going to suffer for being "Not-Layton".

not being the same as the deceased Jack Layton is hardly a rational reason to punt a leader

Jagmeet came in with the hot social media campaign and was young and exciting and people just saw that work for Trudeau.

So your lot punted a intelligent and capable leader to replace him with a Trudeau want to be, who has turned the NDP into Justin's door matt.
why did the NDP want to replicate one fool with another ?

I think a lot of it just came down to the timing being what it was.

blaming strategic errors on timing is a cop out

 

[Valcazar]

not being the same as the deceased Jack Layton is hardly a rational reason to punt a leader

Who says voters are rational?
Voters vote for a complex mix of reasons and they are very rarely purely rational.

So your lot punted a intelligent and capable leader to replace him with a Trudeau want to be, who has turned the NDP into Justin's door matt.
why did the NDP want to replicate one fool with another ?

Because Trudeau had just won and lots of people thought social media hotness was the route to electoral success.
Lots of people still do, despite what I think at this point is compelling evidence that while that can help you, it isn't the whole ball game.

blaming strategic errors on timing is a cop out

Timing is hugely important to strategy and success, Larue.
Things happen in a context and that context influences what goes on.

 

[Butler1000]

I mean... That's not at all what they say nor does that reflect reality.

But hey, if you want to just look like a partisan hack that's going to twist things to make the guy you hate look wrong, you do you. Frankly, I've got plenty of reasons why I'm not voting for Trudeau next election that I don't have to invent stuff or ignore reality, and also avoid looking like a shill. Saying everything one guy does is wrong is a partisan and cult-like as saying everything everyone one guy does is right. Why you'd want that, I don't know. But it's not my problem.

I certainly didn't say that. In fact his pandemic response was quite good. We have some financial issues with the App. And I have a few specific issues with the Convoy response. But overall the nation continues to be ok.

But on this he failed. Its that simple. I'm not coming at this for his immediate resugnation or other nonsense like that. I want the precedent set that election interference is always taken seriously. This isn't a grandios request. Nor an unreasonable one.

China has been a major threat on this front for a long time. From the so called police stations harassing Chinese in Canada. To the kidnapping and false charges of Canadian Citizens. To attempts to cornering tge market on Potash and other mineral rights. To Tic Toc and its data gathering, to other data gathering and intellectual property/industrial espionage and theft. They are anti democracy and want to sow seeds of disunity.

And he has failed to really take the steps until its called out on him. He isn't proactive. Thats the problem.

 

[DinkleMouse]

I certainly didn't say that. In fact his pandemic response was quite good. We have some financial issues with the App. And I have a few specific issues with the Convoy response. But overall the nation continues to be ok.

But on this he failed. Its that simple. I'm not coming at this for his immediate resugnation or other nonsense like that. I want the precedent set that election interference is always taken seriously. This isn't a grandios request. Nor an unreasonable one.

China has been a major threat on this front for a long time. From the so called police stations harassing Chinese in Canada. To the kidnapping and false charges of Canadian Citizens. To attempts to cornering tge market on Potash and other mineral rights. To Tic Toc and its data gathering, to other data gathering and intellectual property/industrial espionage and theft. They are anti democracy and want to sow seeds of disunity.

And he has failed to really take the steps until its called out on him. He isn't proactive. Thats the problem.

Except the links I provided tell you committees were formed, a panel formed, and task force created on Trudeau's orders, and the intelligence agencies themselves have reported that they've been working on countering it. You also said the public has a right to know and he's failed there, except that yes been talking about it, including China, on the Parliament floor for years.

So he didn't do nothing, as you've said and hasn't claimed it doesn't exist. Quite the opposite. But besides striking committees, creating a panel to oversee it, forming a task force, and allowing intelligence agencies to obey their mandate and fight it, what else do you think should he be doing?

 

[Butler1000]

Except the links I provided tell you committees were formed, a panel formed, and task force created on Trudeau's orders, and the intelligence agencies themselves have reported that they've been working on countering it. You also said the public has a right to know and he's failed there, except that yes been talking about it, including China, on the Parliament floor for years.

So he didn't do nothing, as you've said and hasn't claimed it doesn't exist. Quite the opposite. But besides striking committees, creating a panel to oversee it, forming a task force, and allowing intelligence agencies to obey their mandate and fight it, what else do you think should he be doing?

What part of he admitted he didn't listen to them did you not get? Thats jinda the key to to doing something.

As to what? Shut down the fake police stations. Deport people traced to on Canadain soil espionage activities. Hire hackers to actively go after overseas posting farms. Build laws on social media sites to drmand info on foreign actors. Look into foreign donations.

Thats a start.

 

[JohnLarue]

Who says voters are rational?
Voters vote for a complex mix of reasons and they are very rarely purely rational.

i agree voters are not rational
The NDP voters rational ???
since when ?
the NDP has always embraced the delusion that public money is a bottomless pit
yet Jagmeet is willing to support the fool Justin Trudeau because Jagmeet can not afford to run an election campaign
one would expect the realities of being broke would force them to understand financial responsibility
Apparently not with respect to other peoples money

Because Trudeau had just won and lots of people thought social media hotness was the route to electoral success.

electoral success which has resulted in a long and never ending list of corruption and scandals, a polarized country, crippling debt and crippling inflation

Again why did the NDP want to replicate one fool with another ?

Lots of people still do, despite what I think at this point is compelling evidence that while that can help you, it isn't the whole ball game.

the liberals won the 2015 election, but all Canadians lost because of that election win

is winning the most important objective?

BTW the NDP were never going win those federal elections after the liberals took a giant step left with the explicit goal of stealing voters

odd how the liberal altered their pollical platform in order to win, rather than take their believes and political vision to the electorate

call me cynical if you want , however presenting a political vision based on your values and beliefs should be the objective rather gaining and controlling power by altering your values and beliefs
the liberals are morally corrupt

since the NDP are obviously also morally corrupt for supporting the disaster that is Justin Trudeau, the NDP should have taken a step to the right with the explicit goal of stealing voters
its not like they would have lost the diehard uber left votes as those commie fools have no alternative

Timing is hugely important to strategy and success, Larue.
Things happen in a context and that context influences what goes on.

strategy and success ?? for the NDP ??
What success ?

your lot is stuck with Jagmeet and your party has become a fools (Justin Trudeaus) door matt because of timing?
I do not buy that for a second

blaming strategic errors on timing is a cop out