Dr. Birx now says it was likely a lab leak

[Valcazar]

No, I did not say that the research publication from 2015 proves that the WIV created Covid-19, but it illustrates that they have a very recent history of infecting human cells with hybrids of SARS and Coronaviridae and ongoing similar research right up until the 2019 pandemic. It is naive to expect that the WIV through the PRC would have allowed any incriminating evidence to not have been destroyed.

But "there is evidence that has been destroyed that proves I'm right" is a non-falsifiable claim and should be treated with exactly the lack of weight such a claim deserves.

You seem stuck on the idea that because something might have happened, that means it did happen.

The kind of research done at WIV has a much greater probability of creating Covid-19 and having this virus escape accidentally from their lab than zoonotic transfer in the Wuhan wet market just down the street and strangely not in any of the thousands upon thousands of wet markets in cities and towns with no labs that are working on Coronavirus research across China.

That you firmly believe this doesn't make it true.

And are you doubting the veracity of the PRC claim that no zoonotic transfer occurred in their wet markets?

Very much so since there are numerous lines of evidence that support the idea it did.

But you are right, the PRC and you may be right and it didn't occur through zoonotic transfer.
If evidence starts to accumulate in support of that position, I will change my mind.

Perhaps one day, a member (s) of the WIV research team or or even a fellow international research collaborator will come clean and shed some light on what was really going on at the WIV before the pandemic occurred.

And if that happened, that would be significant evidence in favor of one story or another, wouldn't it?

And why do you think the Wuhan scientific couple was escorted abruptly out of Winnipeg in August 2019, just a few months before the outbreak in Wuhan? I didn’t say that that their ejection was a conspiracy, just a curiosity and a remarkable coincidence.

If you are so interested, have you considered looking into it?
Sometimes looking for answers when one has a question helps.

Also to suggest that the PRC rejects the so called “scientific argument” for zoonotic transfer in the Wuhan wet market merely just to “safe face” is somewhat disingenuous.

Why?
They got blamed extensively for not reacting to SARS-CoV-1 fast enough and well enough.
They, like all authoritarian regimes, have a tendency to view anything they aren't in control of as a threat to their illusion of control.
Denying they fucked up in containing it seems very on brand for them, especially when they can blame the West.

No tin foil hat here at all, lots of intrigue and high stakes cover ups, enough to make the research proclaiming that zoonotic transfer is the answer to be far from the gold standard and not even gold leaf so it is no wonder that the US government under Biden and other governments including the UK have reason to further study the lab leak likelyhood.

I thought you said you were against people trying to determine the origin because they would never be able to so people should just move on?

 

[lomotil]

[QUOTE="Valcazar, post: 7620069, member: 206450"


I thought you said you were against people trying to determine the origin because they would never be able to so people should just move on?
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t ever say that I was against the world finding out how Covid-19 actually originated and it may be moot at this point anyway. What I said was that we may never know how this virus originated and to to contrary of your post above I strongly hope that we may find the real origin of Covid-19 which would help towards developing vaccines, preventing risky research or careless research and to bolster international research collaboration as we are all in this together. This pandemic has helped to unify and at the same time divide and segregate this world in a very unique and unprecedented fashion.

 

[Valcazar]

Good.
Glad we agree that investigating the origin is a good thing.

 

[basketcase]

The circumstance around the outbreak of Covid-19 are atypical are they not ? ...

In what way? That a contagious respiratory illness spread?

But I'm glad you are getting more comfortable with your conspiratorial mindset in your claims that the scientific evidence is faulty but your speculation is proof.

 

[basketcase]

...

And why do you think the Wuhan scientific couple was escorted abruptly out of Winnipeg in August 2019, just a few months before the outbreak in Wuhan? I didn’t say that that their ejection was a conspiracy, just a curiosity and a remarkable coincidence. Also to suggest that the PRC rejects the so called “scientific argument” for zoonotic transfer in the Wuhan wet market merely just to “safe face” is somewhat disingenuous.
...

I love the tinfoil connection attempts.

First off, the story seems to be that they stole lab samples. The only way this could relate to covid is if Canada was the ones that 'manipulated' the genome.

And perhaps you should try reading up on Chinese history and the role of their government before you try and dismiss reality as 'disingenuous'.

 

[basketcase]

...
If evidence starts to accumulate in support of that position, I will change my mind.
...

Shhh. That is too rational for a covid discussion.

 

[lomotil]

In what way? That a contagious respiratory illness spread?

But I'm glad you are getting more comfortable with your conspiratorial mindset in your claims that the scientific evidence is faulty but your speculation is proof.

I love the tinfoil connection attempts.

First off, the story seems to be that they stole lab samples. The only way this could relate to covid is if Canada was the ones that 'manipulated' the genome.

And perhaps you should try reading up on Chinese history and the role of their government before you try and dismiss reality as 'disingenuous'.

It is the interpretation of scientific evidence that has the potential to be faulty or conveniently misconstrued and not the actual science as we are seeing.
As the PRC has just locked down 65 million of their citizens ( twice Canada’s population or all of France’s population) in attempts to control Covid-19 outbreaks yet is leaving the wet markets across China open, it would appear that the PRC’s desperate Zero Covid Policy does not believe that zoonotic transfer caused Covid-19 and that zoonotic transfer is even a risk going forward as the Omicron B5 variant ravages regions of China. The wet markets in China are said to be thriving again which shows that the palates in China do not believe the zoonotic theory either it would seem. Historically, the actions of the PRC government show what they fear most above all else is internal insurrection so that the general public is under the constant threat of police arrest if they speak out, even whilst under lockdown during a devastating earthquake!

The actions of the PRC government towards the likely Covid-19 lab leak in Wuhan, the cover up, the continued Zero Policy, the self isolation of China in terms of travel are making Chinese history and necessarily impacting the rest of the world.

Moving forward international cooperation and transparency with the PRC towards actual determining how this pandemic started and how might we avoid future outbreaks by discouraging or outlawing dangerous and risky research and lab practices is key. It is not a question of if another ominous contagion will come out of China to menace the world, but when.
The risk of furture nouvel iatrogenic pandemics must be curtailed.

 

[basketcase]

It is the interpretation of scientific evidence that has the potential to be faulty or conveniently misconstrued and not the actual science as we are seeing.
...

Another conspiracy that all the scientists are wrong and you know better? I'll stick with the conclusions of thousands of scientists around the world thanks.

Sadly you can't even see that your whole argument hinges on China being authoritarian and instead you just ramble on about random shit than is meaningless.

 

[Valcazar]

It is the interpretation of scientific evidence that has the potential to be faulty or conveniently misconstrued and not the actual science as we are seeing.

What are you basing this on?

 

[squeezer]

What are you basing this on?

If I may, his strong beliefs, opinion, thoughts as a layman.

 

[lomotil]

Another conspiracy that all the scientists are wrong and you know better? I'll stick with the conclusions of thousands of scientists around the world thanks.

Sadly you can't even see that your whole argument hinges on China being authoritarian and instead you just ramble on about random shit than is meaningless.

What are you basing this on?

If I may, his strong beliefs, opinion, thoughts as a layman.

“Res ipsa loquitur” as per the past and present behaviour of the PRC , Covid-19 was from a WIV lab leak in all probability, not from a zoonotic transfer at a Wuhan wet market which never happened at the thousands of other wet markets across China, just coincidentally only in Wuhan where coronaviridae where beening studied for decades, including risky somewhat ill advised research using the infection of human cells.
China rightly acknowledges that Covid-19 didn’t come from their wet markets and for that reason has confidently re opened them as Covid-19 continue to go up in China and around the world. Wouldn’t the Zero Covid policy in China necessarily involve the closure of the wet markets if the cause was zoonotic transfer ?
The international scientists that have concluded that zoonotic transfer occurred are not supported by Chinese virologists. Is this because the Chinese researcher are beholden to the tyranny of the PRC and cannot freely speak or that they know a lab leak probably happened, or both ?

The conclusion of the so called international scientific community Is tainted and somewhat politically motivated to exonerate the PRC from causing this pandemic which is a dangerous precedent going forward. Currently there is no advantage and actually several disadvantages in holding China accountable as the apologists in these posts are tacitly aware of but choose to remain obtuse lol.

I have much more of a science background than a legal one, I am not a virologist but not exactly a “layman “ either. As there is fear in the police totalitarian state of the PRC to speak out against the party line so too is there a desire to speak out against the political motivated conclusion that zoonotic transfer caused this pandemic. The hypothesis and conclusion have long been adulterated.
Let us move on and forgive the PRC but not forget what is the probable cause of this pandemic being an accidental lab leak and to encourage China to never let this disaster ever happen again.
I have spoken to a Goverment of Canada epidemiologists ( off the record) another guy working in Wuhan in December 2019 who was evacuated suddenly and “layman” people who reside between the GTA and China who acknowledg that a lab leak most probable happened.

Any of you who are not “laymen”, perhaps scientist, please indicate your backgrounds.
It is naive to think that any evidence of the scientific research support a lab leak had not been destroyed by the PRC and indeed other foreign actors by now.

 

[squeezer]

Any of you who are not “laymen”, perhaps scientist, please indicate your backgrounds.
It is naive to think that any evidence of the scientific research support a lab leak had not been destroyed by the PRC and indeed other foreign actors by now.

I am a layman in this field and rely on the experts in their field and a few I know personally say it is more than likely a naturally mutated virus found in bats and jumped to humans. You go ahead and insert your laymen's perspectives if it makes you feel good, you be you. I will rather be informed and get my information from reliable sources.

SARS-COV-2 as an artificial creation: scientific arguments and counterarguments - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Final perspectives
Many hypotheses on the original source of SARS-COV-2 and COVID-19 have been made, which still lack concrete evidence that supports their statement. Among them, the theory involving recombination, convergence, and adaptation of SARS-COV-2 have been put in the limelight, suggesting a possibility in the evolutionary pathway for SARS-COV-2 [22]. Most scientific reports believe that the polybasic cleavage site and mutation of the spike proteins are the mechanisms behind the adaptation of this beta coronavirus group of SARS-COV-2 to humans [14]. The alterations in the receptor-binding domain of the surface protein (S) of SARS-COV-2 result in its effective binding to human ACE2 receptors, especially in the human respiratory airway, which increases the transmission ability of the virus. Moreover, results of a recent retrospective study conducted in Zhejiang, China, showed one amino acid position loss and four single amino acid mutations in SARS-COV-2 with greater similarity to humans than viruses [23]. Apart from that, genomic and strong evidence of the similarity between SARS-COV-2, bat-coronavirus, and pangolin-coronavirus at the whole genome level has also been discovered. Alterations of the S1-2 junction of coronavirus, including mutations, insertions and deletions, demonstrates that the generation of polybasic cleavage sites is achieved through a natural evolutionary process [14].

In conclusion, all these specific features observed in SARS-COV-2 helps scientists to rule out the idea that this pandemic caused by the novel coronavirus is the result of a man-made action that could be either engineered in the laboratory or further created as a bioweapon out of conspiracy. Recent discoveries revealed evidence of the presence of the virus around the world before it emerged in Asia. There is growing evidence of its true origin as a global organism that was waiting for favorable conditions to emerge instead of originating in China. Recent testing of sewage in Barcelona had suggested that the virus may have been present in the Spanish city in March 2019, many months before China identified the pathogen in the city of Wuhan in December 2019. Based on the results available, it is most probably that this is a natural-born virus that emerged from an animal host, most likely a bat, without any direct pieces of evidence about its intermediate host. Nevertheless, researchers are yet to find a definitive answer to which animal serves as an intermediate host for this virus and disease. Besides, questions on the role of SARS-CoV-2 in T cells have been raised, especially with evidence from recent postmortem findings of its preferential impact on CD 4+ and CD 8+ T cells [24–26]. Therefore, further studying of all microorganisms is mandatory in order to understand how they evolve, how they live, and how they transmit, which may be the key solution in hindering the spread of COVID-19.

 

[lomotil]

I am a layman in this field and rely on the experts in their field and a few I know personally say it is more than likely a naturally mutated virus found in bats and jumped to humans. You go ahead and insert your laymen's perspectives if it makes you feel good, you be you. I will rather be informed and get my information from reliable sources.

SARS-COV-2 as an artificial creation: scientific arguments and counterarguments - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Final perspectives
Many hypotheses on the original source of SARS-COV-2 and COVID-19 have been made, which still lack concrete evidence that supports their statement. Among them, the theory involving recombination, convergence, and adaptation of SARS-COV-2 have been put in the limelight, suggesting a possibility in the evolutionary pathway for SARS-COV-2 [22]. Most scientific reports believe that the polybasic cleavage site and mutation of the spike proteins are the mechanisms behind the adaptation of this beta coronavirus group of SARS-COV-2 to humans [14]. The alterations in the receptor-binding domain of the surface protein (S) of SARS-COV-2 result in its effective binding to human ACE2 receptors, especially in the human respiratory airway, which increases the transmission ability of the virus. Moreover, results of a recent retrospective study conducted in Zhejiang, China, showed one amino acid position loss and four single amino acid mutations in SARS-COV-2 with greater similarity to humans than viruses [23]. Apart from that, genomic and strong evidence of the similarity between SARS-COV-2, bat-coronavirus, and pangolin-coronavirus at the whole genome level has also been discovered. Alterations of the S1-2 junction of coronavirus, including mutations, insertions and deletions, demonstrates that the generation of polybasic cleavage sites is achieved through a natural evolutionary process [14].

In conclusion, all these specific features observed in SARS-COV-2 helps scientists to rule out the idea that this pandemic caused by the novel coronavirus is the result of a man-made action that could be either engineered in the laboratory or further created as a bioweapon out of conspiracy. Recent discoveries revealed evidence of the presence of the virus around the world before it emerged in Asia. There is growing evidence of its true origin as a global organism that was waiting for favorable conditions to emerge instead of originating in China. Recent testing of sewage in Barcelona had suggested that the virus may have been present in the Spanish city in March 2019, many months before China identified the pathogen in the city of Wuhan in December 2019. Based on the results available, it is most probably that this is a natural-born virus that emerged from an animal host, most likely a bat, without any direct pieces of evidence about its intermediate host. Nevertheless, researchers are yet to find a definitive answer to which animal serves as an intermediate host for this virus and disease. Besides, questions on the role of SARS-CoV-2 in T cells have been raised, especially with evidence from recent postmortem findings of its preferential impact on CD 4+ and CD 8+ T cells [24–26]. Therefore, further studying of all microorganisms is mandatory in order to understand how they evolve, how they live, and how they transmit, which may be the key solution in hindering the spread of COVID-19.

The most knowledgeable group with respect to how Covid-19 came to be would be the Wuhan Institute of Virology and their position through the PRC is that zoonotic transfer didn’t occur so the wet markets are allowed to be open again.
Further more the conclusion from the findings from International researchers that believe that zoonotic transfer occurred resulting in Covid-19 is not only being ignored by the PRC but by other world governments who are not putting pressure on the PRC to ban the wet markets that they claim gave rise to this pandemic. Now why is that?
The Biden administration, the UK government and the EU all have asked the PRC, to date to no avail, to cooperate in providing information from the Wuhan Virological Institute towards the likely possibility of a lab leak but they are being stone walled.
Dangerous research involving infected human cells with Coronavirus should be discouraged by the scientific international community and research towards exonerating the lab leak theory , like the article that you referenced above should be defunded and discouraged.

 

[squeezer]

The most knowledgeable group with respect to how Covid-19 came to be would be the Wuhan Institute of Virology and their position through the PRC is that zoonotic transfer didn’t occur so the wet markets are allowed to be open again. REALLY NOW, PLEASE SHOW US THIS PROOF FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE SO YOu're NOT MISTAKEN FOR SOME LAYMAN SPOUSING OFF NONSENSE. Unless of course you believe just because the wet markets opened again because this is how they make their living and have been done so many times before is your only proof, then I'm forced to call out NONSENSE AND BULLSHIT.


Further more the conclusion from the findings from International researchers that believe that zoonotic transfer occurred resulting in Covid-19 is not only being ignored by the PRC but by other world governments who are not putting pressure on the PRC to ban the wet markets that they claim gave rise to this pandemic. Now why is that? BECUASE THEY ARE RADICAL LOONY TOONS WHO ARE MORE THAN LIKELY DISCREDITTED BY THEIR PEERS

The Biden administration, the UK government and the EU all have asked the PRC, to date to no avail, to cooperate in providing information from the Wuhan Virological Institute towards the likely possibility of a lab leak but they are being stone walled.

Please show us with a reliable source that the BIDEN administration agrees with your findings.

Dangerous research involving infected human cells with Coronavirus should be discouraged by the scientific international community and research towards exonerating the lab leak theory , like the article that you referenced above should be defunded and discouraged.

You prefer the scientific community doesn't learn and conduct experiments to further science and the ability to fight off disease? Do you prefer mankind still ride horse and buggy and live in tents?

 

[lomotil]

You prefer the scientific community doesn't learn and conduct experiments to further science and the ability to fight off disease? Do you prefer mankind still ride horse and buggy and live in tents?

I would prefer if risky and dangerous research which spawns pandemics and then is covered up with several levels of obfuscation is not encouraged.

 

[squeezer]

I would prefer if risky and dangerous research which spawns pandemics and then is covered up with several levels of obfuscation is not encouraged.

When this has actually been proven to have happened, then perhaps an intelligent conversation can be had but until then it's laymen folks reaching conclusion on the internet.

 

[lomotil]

When this has actually been proven to have happened, then perhaps an intelligent conversation can be had but until then it's laymen folks reaching conclusion on the internet.

The layman’s conclusion is supported by the actions and inactions of the PRC, and actions of the US, UK among other governments. Th evidence for the lab leakproof has long since been scrub, the work done by the WIV classified, the cover up accomplished. This is CIA, MI5 and Mossad etc levels of intelligence and counter intelligence with the “science” being adulterated beyond recognition.

It is not impossible for Covid-19 to have been the result of iatrogenic negligence.

Unfortunately, the Covid-19 outbreak emanated from Wuhan, home of the WIV which produces a very inconvenient coincidence the zoonotic cabal of apologists.

 

[squeezer]

The layman’s conclusion is supported by the actions and inactions of the PRC, and actions of the US, UK among other governments. Th evidence for the lab leakproof has long since been scrub, the work done by the WIV classified, the cover up accomplished. This is CIA, MI5 and Mossad etc levels of intelligence and counter intelligence with the “science” being adulterated beyond recognition.

It is not impossible for Covid-19 to have been the result of iatrogenic negligence.

Unfortunately, the Covid-19 outbreak emanated from Wuhan, home of the WIV which produces a very inconvenient coincidence the zoonotic cabal of apologists.

So in other words, no matter what any expert in the field tells you otherwise, your mind is made up and that's that.


ps..I have the most beautiful cock because an escort told me so. I can't prove it but hey, I really believed her so it must be true.

 

[lomotil]

So in other words, no matter what any expert in the field tells you otherwise, your mind is made up and that's that.


ps..I have the most beautiful cock because an escort told me so. I can't prove it but hey, I really believed her so it must be true.

Not necessarily. I am open to reasonable evidence towards supporting theoretical lab leaks or zoonotic transfer, however this pandemic has been shrouded in political corruption, inconvenient truths and big coincidences. There are no absolutes.
Why do you think that the PRC and the WIV are denying that zoonotic transfer occurred and are rejecting what “ experts in the field are saying” ? Are they not experts in the field of coronavirus research in Wuhan ? Why are you not quoting their scientific research ?

P.S. Maybe your sp is an “expert” in the field, who knows?

 

[basketcase]

“Res ipsa loquitur” as per ...

A theoretical concept for courts instead of science? Your arguments are as sketchy as an ambulance chasing lawyer so I guess it's an appropriate term.

There is zero evidence of a lab leak and evidence contrary to your claims that the virus was manipulated in the lab. On the other hand, the original covid strain has been found in the same species that were in that wet market.

...

The conclusion of the so called international scientific community Is tainted and somewhat politically...

As with any conspiracy theorist, you seem to base your whole argument on the belief that the entire scientific community is part of some plot.

p.s. Most scientists don't give a shit about politics; they want their name on a significant discovery and to prove themselves smarter than their peers. If there was any hint of actual evidence, someone would be pushing it everywhere.