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NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
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You are not trying to draw paralells between WWII and a potential NATO involvement in the Ukraine are you.If Germany can haz all the fuel the west has access to, and access about 5 times the population base and even more economic base, it would have made short work of the USSR. That is more haz than a kitty with Cheezeburger.
 

Darts

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You are not trying to draw paralells between WWII and a potential NATO involvement in the Ukraine are you.
Try to avoid a shooting war with Russia at all cost. Russia can tolerate casualties (we can't) as they showed in WW II. A shooting war with Russia is a brutal war of attrition.

Question: Why didn't the Americans take Berlin in WW II?
Answer: The cost would be 100,000 casualties. (It cost the Soviets 150,000 casualties.)
 

jcpro

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Try to avoid a shooting war with Russia at all cost. Russia can tolerate casualties (we can't) as they showed in WW II. A shooting war with Russia is a brutal war of attrition.

Question: Why didn't the Americans take Berlin in WW II?
Answer: The cost would be 100,000 casualties. (It cost the Soviets 150,000 casualties.)
Of course the truth on the ground in the spring of 1945 was a bit different. After the Rhur collapse had the American army advanced on Berlin, they would have taken it with a very few casualties. Why? The German's worst nightmare was standing on the Oder River a 100 km from Berlin ready to take their revenge. The German army would have had surrendered to the Western allies to avoid the long walk to Siberia.
 
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NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
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Try to avoid a shooting war with Russia at all cost. Russia can tolerate casualties (we can't) as they showed in WW II. A shooting war with Russia is a brutal war of attrition.

Question: Why didn't the Americans take Berlin in WW II?
Answer: The cost would be 100,000 casualties. (It cost the Soviets 150,000 casualties.)

1: Russians ain't what they used to be, neither are Americans.
2: Poutine can't get away with what Stalin did and his hold on power although strong is far from absolute.
3: The idea of unlimited Russian manpower reserves is a myth.
3a: By 43, 44 they were running out of manpower and their retaking of lost lands was the only thing that saved them from being fubared
3b: They also benefited by having a lot of young bucks on American farms and factories providing goods at higher efficiencies allowing more Russians to be released for the front [Lend Lease]
4: Russia is now only a country of 145ish million, Losing the Stans and the Ukraine really took out their manpower depth. The Americans can draw on 350millionish, about 60 or so Brits, French, Italians, 80 million Germans, 40 million Poles, 20 Romanians, Spaniards, Hungarians maybe even 80 million Turks. At the same amount of bodybags it will impact Russian household far more than western ones.
5: Hitler. In WWII they were fighting an opponent hell bent on annihilation, the initial greeting of invaders with bread and salt quickly went away. No matter how much of a Putin fan boy a Russian is, none of them... NONE of them will equate NATO with Hitler.
6: It's been pointed out that Russians fight really hard for a cause that is right like protecting the motherland from Hitler or Napoleon, but when they cause is bullshit, like in WWI it becomes a lot more hit or miss. It has been said if Nappy made the war about ending serfdom the results would have been very different, and if Hitler was wiling to fake a nice persona again things would be different, even with Hitler they managed to get a lot of collaborator units and more so Hiwis.
7: It's all irrelevant anyway. If fecal matter hits the fan I doubt there is any interest to enter Russia proper. No need for it.
7a: If Poutine did invade Ukraine and got drivin out of both it as well as the Crimea and Donbass regions with all the bodybags and destroyed equipment plus the embarrassment I doubt NATO would never need to bother with regime change and Poutine knows it.


Also as to why the Allies didn't try to take Berlin
The plan was taken by the British Chiefs of Staff Committee as militarily unfeasible due to an anticipated 2.5 to 1 superiority in divisions of Soviet land forces in Europe and the Middle East by 1 July, where the conflict was projected to take place.[8] Most of any offensive operation would have been undertaken by American and British forces, as well as Polish forces and up to 10 divisions of the former German Heer (Army), remobilised from POW status. Any quick success would be caused by surprise alone. If a quick success could not be obtained before the onset of winter, the assessment was that the Allies would be committed to a protracted total war. In the report of 22 May 1945, an offensive operation was deemed "hazardous".
I don't know where you got that 100K dead figure from. It would be much much higher. You not only have to take Berlin but all of East Germany, and drive the Russians out of the rest of Eastern Europe and the Middle East and probably keep fighting them.


So in short your entire thesis is entirely wrong.
 

nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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Of course the truth on the ground in the spring of 1945 was a bit different. After the Rhur collapse had the American army advanced on Berlin, they would have taken it with a very few casualties. Why? The German's worst nightmare was standing on the Oder River a 100 km from Berlin ready to take their revenge. The German army would have had surrendered to the Western allies to avoid the long walk to Siberia.
75% of German casualties were inflicted by the USSR.Just remember that. If it were not for Russia a lot of us would not be around today.
 
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nottyboi

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You are not trying to draw paralells between WWII and a potential NATO involvement in the Ukraine are you.If Germany can haz all the fuel the west has access to, and access about 5 times the population base and even more economic base, it would have made short work of the USSR. That is more haz than a kitty with Cheezeburger.
So what, it would still be effing terrible, even if it does not go nuclear. War is simply not worth it. Whats the issue with professionally collaborating with a mutual security arrangement with Russia. They are not demanding to annex Ukraine.
 

NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
Mar 8, 2017
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75% of German casualties were inflicted by the USSR.Just remember that. If it were not for Russia a lot of us would not be around today.
Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs:
I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.
Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying:
Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us ... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war
But what would Stalin and Zhukov know.

Without the Allies there would be much fewer Russians around. The Allies would still have won, and it would have been much more bloody for the west but still

Not to deny that blood is a more painful sacrifice than treasure but still.
 

NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
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So what, it would still be effing terrible, even if it does not go nuclear. War is simply not worth it. Whats the issue with professionally collaborating with a mutual security arrangement with Russia. They are not demanding to annex Ukraine.
However that has nothing to do with his argument and it's overall wrongness.
Also this whole war is bad and not worth it is why cost Czechoslovakia and Poland it's freedom and if pushed would result in the annexation of the Ukraine. Sometimes war is necessary and useful. Also being willing to stand up can be very effective at preventing war.
Much like if you are being bullied. Being punched and kicked sucks, but if you are willing to take the risk you can avoid many problems in school and in prison. I mean unless you enjoy the smooth taste of prison cock. Only there are no teachers or guards on the international scene.
Also if war is so bad, why are you suggesting we professionally collaborate with Russia? Or are you suggesting that is what Russia's moves towards the Ukraine are. Collaborate or else. Dude. No, just no.
 

nottyboi

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However that has nothing to do with his argument and it's overall wrongness.
Also this whole war is bad and not worth it is why cost Czechoslovakia and Poland it's freedom and if pushed would result in the annexation of the Ukraine. Sometimes war is necessary and useful. Also being willing to stand up can be very effective at preventing war.
Much like if you are being bullied. Being punched and kicked sucks, but if you are willing to take the risk you can avoid many problems in school and in prison. I mean unless you enjoy the smooth taste of prison cock. Only there are no teachers or guards on the international scene.
Also if war is so bad, why are you suggesting we professionally collaborate with Russia? Or are you suggesting that is what Russia's moves towards the Ukraine are. Collaborate or else. Dude. No, just no.
International politics is done under threat of force. So Russia has just decided it won't be taken seriously unless it asks NATO in language that NATO can understand. Any other way and they are not being taken seriously. They want something, time to think of what we can get in return.
 
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nottyboi

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The Allies would still have won, and it would have been much more bloody for the west but still
That is not at all clear. Germany went after Russia for resources. With ample oil the war would have continued on. Germany was light years ahead on missile tech and jet engines. They could have beat back the bombing campaign and who knows, maybe developed the atomic bomb before the USA.
 
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jsanchez

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Apr 8, 2004
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T.O.
International politics is done under threat of force. So Russia has just decided it won't be taken seriously unless it asks NATO in language that NATO can understand. Any other way and they are not being taken seriously. They want something, time to think of what we can get in return.
Translation: the bully and his expansionist state want something under threat of force. Obama was too dumb to see this coming, Biden seems more resolute.
 

Darts

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"However, General Omar Bradley warned that capturing a city located in a region that the Soviets had already received by the Yalta Conference might cost 100,000 casualties.[6] By April 15, Eisenhower had ordered all armies to halt when they reached the Elbe and Mulde Rivers, thus immobilizing the spearheads while the war continued for three more weeks."

(If I was an American father or mother, I would not want my son or daughter to be among the 100,000 casualties. Of course, the lefties will argue that the Americans valued American lives more than Russian lives.)
Race to Berlin - Wikipedia
 

Darts

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Appeasement with Hitler didn't work but who knows with Putin? Hitler wanted Russia, Putin already has Russia and all its resources. War often has unseen consequences.

The other issue is the west (mainly Germany) need Russian gas. Thanks to the lefties, we don't have surplus gas or oil.
 

NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
Mar 8, 2017
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"However, General Omar Bradley warned that capturing a city located in a region that the Soviets had already received by the Yalta Conference might cost 100,000 casualties.[6] By April 15, Eisenhower had ordered all armies to halt when they reached the Elbe and Mulde Rivers, thus immobilizing the spearheads while the war continued for three more weeks."
Why burn lives for a city that was going to be returned to the Soviet Union. Why potentially antagonize what was then an ally when you have Japan to take down.
In every discussion of the hold back, it's political reasons that come first and foremost.
It could have taken a 1000 causalities, it still would have been a bad idea.
Also the Americans had no problem burning lives if they had to
They could have tried starving them out but the risks of war exhaustion was too much. If the Nukes didn't do the trick they were quite willing to end it with American lives.


But again, everything I said was right. Your are talking about a different time, a different enemy and your basic premise that is was causalities that deterred the Americans from going to Berlin was also wrong.


There is a world of difference between reading a wiki article and a few videos on the youtube [some of which are really good] and reading multiple books on multiple related topics from a university library.
 

poker

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Niagara
The world is getting too small for war. We are all tied up together economically. Nobody is really independent anymore.
 
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Darts

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Although recent history does show that the Russians may not have much of a stomach for shedding blood like they did in WW II when they had no choice. Remember the retreat in Afghanistan.
 

Darts

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"Zhukov, seeing that his plan was not working, decided to send wave after wave of Soviet soldiers to destroy the German resistance.[8] "According to one Russian veteran, Soviet artillery was fired without proper guidance, killing scores of Red Army soldiers.""
 

mjg1

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The world is getting too small for war. We are all tied up together economically. Nobody is really independent anymore.
That is true, the world is so tied together economically that any large scale war would ruin everyone. Just look at the global supply chain and the chip shortage.
 
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