Afghan comedian executed by Taliban

[Dutch Oven]

No
Trump is no longer relevant because he is no longer making the executive decisions
What it means is it is inaccurate to assign blame to trump or deflect blame from Joe Biden who is making executive decisions



Three massive problems with that line of logic (or lack of logic)
1. Joe Biden painted Trump as untrustworthy and a lair. Why would anyone follow through on the plans arranged by a lying untrustworthy person?
2. When Biden took the oath of office he became the commander in chief of the US military'. All subsequent military operations are his responsibility.
3. Had the operation gone well as he expected. Joe Biden would have taken all the credit . Assume all the credit, then you assume all the responsibility
The buck stops right there


In addition all military plans need to be dynamic as conditions can change rapidly.
As commander in chief he has the responsibility to review (at an executive level) the operational plan, access the updated intelligence and then

1. approve the plan
2. request modifications be made or
3. cancel the plan

The buck stops right there

It's amazing that almost everyone understood, prior to the commencement of the operation, that the plan should have been to make sure all the civilians were out before drawing down the troops. Except for Joe. Doesn't that mean that, without argument, he's an incompetent Commander in Chief?

 

[mandrill]

No
Trump is no longer relevant because he is no longer making the executive decisions
What it means is it is inaccurate to assign blame to trump or deflect blame from Joe Biden who is making executive decisions

Three massive problems with that line of logic (or lack of logic)
1. Joe Biden painted Trump as untrustworthy and a lair. Why would anyone follow through on the plans arranged by a lying untrustworthy person?
2. When Biden took the oath of office he became the commander in chief of the US military'. All subsequent military operations are his responsibility.
3. Had the operation gone well as he expected. Joe Biden would have taken all the credit . Assume all the credit, then you assume all the responsibility
The buck stops right there

In addition all military plans need to be dynamic as conditions can change rapidly.
As commander in chief he has the responsibility to review (at an executive level) the operational plan, access the updated intelligence and then

1. approve the plan
2. request modifications be made or
3. cancel the plan

The buck stops right there

Nice rhetoric, John. But realistically Biden inherits all of Trump's deals - unless he specifically cancels them. So you can post "The Buck stops there" as much as you like, it has no connection to reality.

And what's Biden supposed to do in 6 months with a situation which has been a train wreck for 20 years. 6 months is too little time to build an army that didn't get built in 20 years.

And I'm pretty sure the generals told Biden that the Afghan army would do just fine - because the generals always say that and the president has to rely on that advice.

And Biden actually put in place a fucking ace plan. They US rushed in the 82 ABN, built a perimeter around Kabul Airport, avoided firefights with the Talis and evacuated over 70,000 people at last count. That's a pretty solid achievement. So he deserves a lot of credit.

The bullshit here is that the American people always thinks the US has to "win" every shitty little war it's involved in - even where the war can't be won. Someone has to pick up the little chunks of shit at the end and clean up as best he can. And that's Biden and he's doing a solid job. But the media wants the big Victory Parade w the Stars and Stripes flying and looks for people to blame. And folks like you try and score points by riding the media wave.

 

[mandrill]

It's amazing that almost everyone understood, prior to the commencement of the operation, that the plan should have been to make sure all the civilians were out before drawing down the troops. Except for Joe. Doesn't that mean that, without argument, he's an incompetent Commander in Chief?

Situations change, Dutch. Good commanders react to them. See my post just above. Biden's doing a great job. Deserves a medal.

70,000 evacuated already. Estimates are that 1,500 Americans are left in Ghan and 1,000 are Bo Bergdahl types who want to join the Talis and stay there. That suggests that Biden pulled off the impossible in less than a couple of weeks. You gotta agree that's pretty solid...

But tell me what Fox News is saying today. Bet they're not covering the Lin Wood and Sydney Powell disbarments, huh? Two of your heroes are biting the dust.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Situations change, Dutch. Good commanders react to them. See my post just above. Biden's doing a great job. Deserves a medal.

You'll have to mail one to him, because on this issue almost no one in American politics, either GOP or Democrat, agrees with you. The American military has a pretty long standing tradition of leaving no one behind.

Good commanders do what is guaranteed to work, instead of bungling around, reacting to the chaos that they, themselves, create. In this case, a full evacuation of civilians would have been effected had the military stayed in place and continued to provide air support to the Afghan army until that evacuation was completed.

 

[mandrill]

You'll have to mail one to him, because on this issue almost no one in American politics, either GOP or Democrat, agrees with you. The American military has a pretty long standing tradition of leaving no one behind.

Good commanders do what is guaranteed to work, instead of bungling around, reacting to the chaos that they, themselves, create. In this case, a full evacuation of civilians would have been effected had the military stayed in place and continued to provide air support to the Afghan army until that evacuation was completed.

Yeah. Right.

You know who made public speeches all through the spring demanding that Biden pull out faster. Mr Orange Spray Tan himself. Biden was in fact SLOWER than the GOP demanded.

So ride the bandwagon as best you can, Dutch. I figure the wheels are going to fall off and you're going to land with a thud.

 

[Frankfooter]

No
Trump is no longer relevant because he is no longer making the executive decisions
What it means is it is inaccurate to assign blame to trump or deflect blame from Joe Biden who is making executive decisions

This was a Trump policy that was years in the making, including deals made between the US and the Taliban.
It was already enacted.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Yeah. Right.

You know who made public speeches all through the spring demanding that Biden pull out faster. Mr Orange Spray Tan himself. Biden was in fact SLOWER than the GOP demanded.

So ride the bandwagon as best you can, Dutch. I figure the wheels are going to fall off and you're going to land with a thud.

TDS. Biden had full authority to set whatever evacuation plan he thought in the best interests of the American people.

The wheels will not fall off of this issue. Even if Biden manages to get ALL Americans and a SUBSTANTIAL number of the remaining Afghan allies out, which seems extremely unlikely, it's now going to take some extraordinary measures, and American servicemen lives are likely to be lost at the very least. It is virtually impossible for a President to politically survive a conclusion by the American people that American lives were lost DIRECTLY as a result of a blatently incorrect decision of that President.

His decisions have now stranded some Canadians as well. As a Canadian, I'm not sure how you can find that forgiveable.

 

[mandrill]

TDS. Biden had full authority to set whatever evacuation plan he thought in the best interests of the American people.

The wheels will not fall off of this issue. Even if Biden manages to get ALL Americans and a SUBSTANTIAL number of Afghan allies out, which seems extremely unlikely, it's now going to take some extraordinary measures, and American servicemen lives are likely to be lost at the very least. It is virtually impossible for a President to politically survive a conclusion by the American people that American lives were lost DIRECTLY as a result of a blatently incorrect decision of that President.

He'll survive and the decision wasn't incorrect.

And 70,000 and counting seems a pretty damn good result.

The only thing you have going for you in your argument is that Trump lost the election and isn't actually in charge - because no one could reasonably believe that Trump would do anywhere close to as good a job as Biden is doing. Trump's on record as saying he would rush troops out even faster. Trump's foreign policy fu was awful.

So you can say "Trump would have done better" and you don't actually have to produce proof - because that eventuality will never arise. That's the only way your argument can exist.

 

[Dutch Oven]

He'll survive and the decision wasn't incorrect.

And 70,000 and counting seems a pretty damn good result.

You don't get to sink a ship and then claim credit for the lifeboats.

 

[mandrill]

You don't get to sink a ship and then claim credit for the lifeboats.

You do, if you weren't actually the captain that steered the ship into the iceberg, Dutch.

And it's a dumb metaphor anyway.

We both know that if Trump were still president, worse chaos would happen and you'd be quoting Breitbart at me and saying all the "leftie media news sources" were lying and Afghanistan was doing just fine.

 

[Dutch Oven]

You do, if you weren't actually the captain that steered the ship into the iceberg, Dutch.

And it's a dumb metaphor anyway.

We both know that if Trump were still president, worse chaos would happen and you'd be quoting Breitbart at me and saying all the "leftie media news sources" were lying and Afghanistan was doing just fine.

Did Trump approve the evacuation plan or Biden? Spoiler alert - Biden.

The rest of your post is malignant TDS.

 

[Frankfooter]

Did Trump approve the evacuation plan or Biden? Spoiler alert - Biden.

The rest of your post is malignant TDS.

Does this mean you admit think Trump's Afghan withdrawal was wrong?
Or that Trump's plan was bad?

 

[mandrill]

Did Trump approve the evacuation plan or Biden? Spoiler alert - Biden.

The rest of your post is malignant TDS.

So Dutch, tell me EXACTLY how Trump would have done better. Go into detail. Avoid speculation. Be precise.

You can't do that, right? Your entire argument is based on assumptions that he would. So why should I take it seriously?

 

[Dutch Oven]

So Dutch, tell me EXACTLY how Trump would have done better. Go into detail. Avoid speculation. Be precise.

You can't do that, right? Your entire argument is based on assumptions that he would. So why should I take it seriously?

Comparing to Trump is your hangup, not mine. Go ahead and speculate all you want, but I won't care, and neither will the American public. This situation is a referendum on the competence (perhaps even mental competence) of Joe Biden. There isn't any avoiding that.

 

[mandrill]

Comparing to Trump is your hangup, not mine. Go ahead and speculate all you want, but I won't care, and neither will the American public. This situation is a referendum on the competence (perhaps even mental competence) of Joe Biden. There isn't any avoiding that.

But look, Biden has to be compared to someone. And that someone is Trump because Trump is the alternative. If you want, we could compare Biden to Cruz or Abbott or DeSantis or whomever you want.

Because unless there is a standard of comparison, it's just you complaining that Biden "should have done better" whenever anything untoward happens and nothing in human endeavor works like that. Least of all in war.

But it's a nice little gambit because you can set up a standard of perfection, employ Fox News as the judge and avoid talking about how manifestly incompetent all the leading GOP players are.

 

[Dutch Oven]

But look, Biden has to be compared to someone. And that someone is Trump because Trump is the alternative. If you want, we could compare Biden to Cruz or Abbott or DeSantis or whomever you want.

Because unless there is a standard of comparison, it's just you complaining that Biden "should have done better" whenever anything untoward happens and nothing in human endeavor works like that. Least of all in war.

But it's a nice little gambit because you can set up a standard of perfection, employ Fox News as the judge and avoid talking about how manifestly incompetent all the leading GOP players are.

You are confusing the concepts of baseline competence with relative competence. Biden is being tested for baseline competence here.

 

[Dutch Oven]

And so it begins:

Kabul Airport Attack Kills 13 U.S. Service Members, at Least 90 Afghans

Two explosions ripped through crowds, followed by a gun assault, at Kabul airport, where the U.S. military is attempting to evacuate thousands.

www.wsj.com

 

[mandrill]

You are confusing the concepts of baseline competence with relative competence. Biden is being tested for baseline competence here.

Dutch, any reasonable person analyzing this is going to say as follows:

1. Trump had this baby for 4 years. Were his original plans sound? If not, how did he fuck up? What did his intelligence briefings say? Were there dissenting reports? Should he have paid attention to them?
2. Biden had this file for 6 months. That's not a long time. So he's initially entitled to take Trump's stuff at face value because he inherited it.
3. Did Biden get conflicting intelligence briefings in the meantime, specifically on the battle-worthiness of the Afgh Army and the popular support for the Talis? What was the overall consensus? Were there any dissents and were they sufficiently weighty to be given credence?
4. When the Afgh Army under-performed intelligence assessments, what was a do-able Plan B to scramble together? Did Biden do what was possible under the circumstances?

Simply dancing around if something goes unexpectedly badly and saying "He's baseline incompetent" without doing your own due diligence and analysis is silly. Agreed?

So give me your step by step here, Dutch. Tell me how you would have out performed Trump and Biden.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Dutch, any reasonable person analyzing this is going to say as follows:

1. Trump had this baby for 4 years. Were his original plans sound? If not, how did he fuck up? What did his intelligence briefings say? Were there dissenting reports? Should he have paid attention to them?
2. Biden had this file for 6 months. That's not a long time. So he's initially entitled to take Trump's stuff at face value because he inherited it.
3. Did Biden get conflicting intelligence briefings in the meantime, specifically on the battle-worthiness of the Afgh Army and the popular support for the Talis? What was the overall consensus? Were there any dissents and were they sufficiently weighty to be given credence?
4. When the Afgh Army under-performed intelligence assessments, what was a do-able Plan B to scramble together? Did Biden do what was possible under the circumstances?

Simply dancing around if something goes unexpectedly badly and saying "He's baseline incompetent" without doing your own due diligence and analysis is silly. Agreed?

So give me your step by step here, Dutch. Tell me how you would have out performed Trump and Biden.

Just to remind you of what I've already said, I have no interest in comparing Biden's decisions to what Trump's were, or what they might have been if Trump were still President. Amuse yourself on that point.

A President's job, because he is elected but his advisors are not, is not to just receive intelligence and advice, it's to determine what decisions to make, which might involve relying upon some advice and refusing to rely on others. It's an exercise of judgement. If you choose wrong, and serious consequences ensue, you WILL be held accountable. It goes with the job. Since those horrible consequences have already happened, the burden lies on Biden to prove to the public that he made the best choices available to him. That's going to be hard to do, since he's already lied/misled them several times along the way to this disaster, and his advisors are openly contradicting him about the advice he received. It also doesn't look good that he won't take any questions at his press conferences.

 

[mandrill]

Just to remind you of what I've already said, I have no interest in comparing Biden's decisions to what Trump's were, or what they might have been if Trump were still President. Amuse yourself on that point.

A President's job, because he is elected but his advisors are not, is not to just receive intelligence and advice, it's to determine what decisions to make, which might involve relying upon some advice and refusing to rely on others. It's an exercise of judgement. If you choose wrong, and serious consequences ensue, you WILL be held accountable. It goes with the job. Since those horrible consequences have already happened, the burden lies on Biden to prove to the public that he made the best choices available to him. That's going to be hard to do, since he's already lied/misled them several times along the way to this disaster, and his advisors are openly contradicting him about the advice he received. It also doesn't look good that he won't take any questions at his press conferences.

Dutch, you will literally keep on posting all afternoon. I gotta get some law done now.

TTYL.